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HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.

They lose an extra attack in the process though. The gun is not strictly better.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Are you sure he was EW?

He had a Deamonic Rune.

"The Chaos Champion as been gifted with a Deamonic Rune, a mighty symbol of the Powers of the Dark Gods.
Their power flows through the Rune, demonstrating the favour confered onto such Champion.
Such an individual as been marked for greatness and cannot be easely killed."

Unsaved attacks whose Strenghts are at least double the models thoughness, will cause a single Wound instead of an Instant Death.

Wich for the time correspond with EW, since there was no USR and each codex had each of their rules written in it, wich would occure in multiple versions or interpretations of the same rule/effect.

As written, Daemonic Rune has no effect on Force Weapons or weapons that simply have the Instant Death special rule.

Now, he has immunity to Instant Death from Force Weapons but not double-toughness. So it is really just a different kind of EW, and fluffier now to boot.

At the time there was no Instant Death USR, and Force Weapons rule was "...if the model is wounded, it is removed from play...", there was no safefail Vs Force weapons back then, since Force Weapons was a rare equipement, exception of Collars of Khorne who gave their bearers immunity to Force Weapons and could ignore Psy Powers on a 2+ roll, wich Kharn obviously had.

Its with the 4th Ed codex that the Collars dissapeared, and that Kharn gained the Blood God Blessing instead, wich does exactly the same thing.

Let me rephrase this, KHARN WAS BETTER, for just 20points extra, i would have been okay if he kept his rules and wargear as they where and costed 190-200 personaly.

The only two things he gained that he did not have back then is the Hatred and the second D6 to penetrate armors.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.

They lose an extra attack in the process though. The gun is not strictly better.

More of a reason they shouldn't have to pay for it. should be a free upgrade. Cultist need more options, as it stands they are crappy guardsmen.

Okay but like I said Lucius was better back then. Emperor's Children were in general very strong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I dont ever rememner Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Kharn dies to a round of Krak Missiles EASILY. That's not a bargain.

Who ever puts Kharn by himself against a 'round' of krak missiles?

That's without the cost of a retinue. If you look at the Kharn's cost with his durability, it is junk. He only has a 3+, 5++, W3, and no EW. Even IF he strikes at AP2 I5, it isn't good. Even Azrael, who isn't a killing machine whatsoever, can kill Kharn within a few rounds.

You can always say a character won't be by themselves, but that's just refusing to acknowledge the downsides to a character.

Thats not true, sometimes a character neither comes with a squad nor has the independent character rule (in this situation you can say the can't say the character won't be by themself). Characters joining units is a basic synergy in Warhammer, ignoring that is like ignoring devestators being able to upgrade to krak missile launchers!

You're right that we mustn't refuse to acknowledge the downsides to a character. Not being able to buddy up is a downside to a character; a downside which Kharn doesn't have. No, Kharn is able to buddy up, but truthfully he isn't TOO good at it (on account of his obsessive compulsion to take skulls in combat).

On the topic, one downside of Kharn is he can't use Nurgle Spawn as a congaline delivery system to hurry him into combat, instead he must travel with unarked or khorne spawn, bikes or jumpers to get a decent chance of early charging.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Okay but like I said Lucius was better back then. Emperor's Children were in general very strong.

My Copy of the codex disagree with you.


196pts, WS5 BS5 S5 T4 W3 I5 A3 LD10 SV3+.

Aura of acquisence, Armor of shrieking Souls, Lash of Torments, Power weapon, MoS, Combat Drugs.

Martial Pride; Lucius attacks are raised to 5 if he is in BtB with a model that has WS5 or more, he as 2 attacks if he is in BtB with a model that as WS2 or less.

Armor of Shrieking Souls, give him a 4++ save and counts as equipped with a Doom Siren.

Lash of Torment; inflict -1 on LD rolls if Lucius killed a model with the Lash, allows Lucius to hit models that are outside the danger zone( the 2" area around a model that is engaged).

Aura of acquisence Models that fails morale test Vs a model/unit with this rule, doesn't flee and stay locked in CC.

Combat Drugs; at the start of the assault phase, choose 3 effects from the drugs chart, they last until the end of the assault phase.
Roll a D6 for each power choosen, the model loss a wound on any double, this wound cannot be saved in anyway, if a triple is rolled the model Dies outright, if you roll only one die, there is obviously no way to harm the model.
-Move through terrain like rule( additional dice for moving in terrain)
-+1WS
-+1Str
- the model ignores the first wound caused to him during this phase as long that it is not inflicted by an "Instant Death"
-+1Attack.

...i really fail to see how Lucius was better...

And sonic weaponry was worse back then, the max was AP4 and doom siren was simply a flamer, Str4 Ap5.

blastmaster, Varied frequency 36" Str 5 AP 5 assault 2, pinning
Fixed frequency 36" Str8 AP4 Heavy 1 blast

Sonic blaster 24" Str4 Ap5 assault 2 or heavy 3.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

That's what I was saying earlier. 20 Guardsmen w/Lasguns vs 20 Cultists with Autoguns. Same price, everything the same except save. On average these 2 units in a vaccuum will result in 1/6 more cultists dying every round because of that meaningless orky armour save. But when not in a vacuum, Guardsmen have tanks and orders out the wazoo, and Cultists have barely any vehicles or support apart from Typulhus

Combat drugs, always hits first, can hit enemy models at high inititiative when not engaged... Aura so you don't have to worry about getting shot up next turn...

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

That's what I was saying earlier. 20 Guardsmen w/Lasguns vs 20 Cultists with Autoguns. Same price, everything the same except save. On average these 2 units in a vaccuum will result in 1/6 more cultists dying every round because of that meaningless orky armour save. But when not in a vacuum, Guardsmen have tanks and orders out the wazoo, and Cultists have barely any vehicles or support apart from Typulhus

Do the 20 cultists with close combat weapons vs 20 guardsmen with lasguns in close combat. Cultists are cheaper, and have an extra attack but worst save. On average, these two units in a vacuum will result in... *does math* 5 wounds from the guardsmen to the cultists and 7 wounds from the cultists to the guardsmen, roughly. OMG! A cheaper unit is killing my more expensive unit! Guardsmen are so underpowered.

I hate direct unit comparisons like that. The Cultists have the option of being 20% cheaper than guardsmen, and are situationally better. Stop trying to force them into role they don't do well. Unless you want me to start complaining that Wyverns should be as good at close combat as Obliterators because they cost the same.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

That's what I was saying earlier. 20 Guardsmen w/Lasguns vs 20 Cultists with Autoguns. Same price, everything the same except save. On average these 2 units in a vaccuum will result in 1/6 more cultists dying every round because of that meaningless orky armour save. But when not in a vacuum, Guardsmen have tanks and orders out the wazoo, and Cultists have barely any vehicles or support apart from Typulhus

Do the 20 cultists with close combat weapons vs 20 guardsmen with lasguns in close combat. Cultists are cheaper, and have an extra attack but worst save. On average, these two units in a vacuum will result in... *does math* 5 wounds from the guardsmen to the cultists and 7 wounds from the cultists to the guardsmen, roughly. OMG! A cheaper unit is killing my more expensive unit! Guardsmen are so underpowered.

I hate direct unit comparisons like that. The Cultists have the option of being 20% cheaper than guardsmen, and are situationally better. Stop trying to force them into role they don't do well. Unless you want me to start complaining that Wyverns should be as good at close combat as Obliterators because they cost the same.

Except that the Cultists now have half the range of the Guardsmen, and should they come into range to shoot their own pistols the Guardsmen have twice the firepower, plus the Cultists want that charge so Guardsmen can just keep kiteing. Then you have overwatch to consider.

Yeah, 20 guardsmen beat the 20 ccw cultists... the cultists never made it to cc.

How many cultist will die to overwatch before they even get to combat.

If you are attempting to assault with cultists you are definitely doing something wrong .

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Oh come on Martel, don't buy into that Mutilators/Warp Talon garbage.

Warp Talons are even more overcosted than SG, but BA have nothing like mutilators in terms of slot efficiency.

They should give cultist more gun options. It's a shame to see there sole use being sit on an objective and try not to die. At least in KDK them dying helps.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It's too late, he already has.

It 'confirms' his belief that BA with their grav weapons are actually worse than us...

Regular grav guns fail me constantly between cover, lack of shots, and lack of ability to reroll wounds. Grav cannons are the real grav weapons, and BA don't have them.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They should give cultist more gun options. It's a shame to see there sole use being sit on an objective and try not to die. At least in KDK them dying helps.

^^ This !!!

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you are attempting to assault with cultists you are definitely doing something wrong .

Killed GK's marines with my cultists, they where KDK cultists but still.

PA GK's come close shoot at the poor sods, they manage to survive with a mix of lucky covers and FnP rolls, GK's fail the charge into the ruins, Cultists assault the GK's loose only one guy due to Overwatch, they manage to kill 3 Gk's!!!, GK's flee off the board, useless to say that everyone was suprised and that the Cultists had free acces to all the booze they could get their pawns on!

Sometimes things takes a turn in the most surprising ways.

Cultists can do well against units with relatively few quality attacks, especially if KDK. They just drown the enemies in attacks, and the WS chart ensures not enough hits get through to matter.

Really, that and going to ground is the only use for cultists I've seen. Their shooting is pretty limited against most targets, but that many attacks off the charge is nice.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you are attempting to assault with cultists you are definitely doing something wrong .

Killed GK's marines with my cultists, they where KDK cultists but still.

PA GK's come close shoot at the poor sods, they manage to survive with a mix of lucky covers and FnP rolls, GK's fail the charge into the ruins, Cultists assault the GK's loose only one guy due to Overwatch, they manage to kill 3 Gk's!!!, GK's flee off the board, useless to say that everyone was suprised and that the Cultists had free acces to all the booze they could get their pawns on!

Sometimes things takes a turn in the most surprising ways.

Cultists are great for a low costed objective secured. I remember one time my Bloodthirster died to a lowly grot - we all have those stories.

Now if only KDK was in the CSM codex like it should be... along with all the other daemon-kin and god specific allies and forces...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

With CCW, not with the same equipment. I prefer to take them without autoguns

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.

Base is higher though - 10 IG with lasguns and 5+ is 50 points, 10 Cultists with autoguns and 6+ is 60 points (50 +10 for autoguns).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.

They lose an extra attack in the process though. The gun is not strictly better.

I prefer them without the autogun, mostly. However, as a cushion for Havocs they can be pretty decent, or simply to help them behind an Aegis Defence Line. 35 Cultists behind a 4+ cover takes time to clear.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Do the 20 cultists with close combat weapons vs 20 guardsmen with lasguns in close combat. Cultists are cheaper, and have an extra attack but worst save. On average, these two units in a vacuum will result in... *does math* 5 wounds from the guardsmen to the cultists and 7 wounds from the cultists to the guardsmen, roughly. OMG! A cheaper unit is killing my more expensive unit! Guardsmen are so underpowered.

I hate direct unit comparisons like that. The Cultists have the option of being 20% cheaper than guardsmen, and are situationally better. Stop trying to force them into role they don't do well. Unless you want me to start complaining that Wyverns should be as good at close combat as Obliterators because they cost the same.

20 Cultists would get shredded by lasgun fire.

Now, let's take 10 Cultist with CCWs - that's 50 points. Then take 10 IG. They start so the Cultists get within 24", then the IG fire a round of shooting. 9 shots=4.5 hits, equals 2.25 wounds(5/6) = 1.88 dead. Round up to 2 wounds. Cultists then move so they are within 12", but outside charge range. They fire 8 pistols =4 hits, 2 wounds(2/3)= 1.33, round down to 1.

Next round the IG open fire. 17 shots with lasguns = 8.5 hits, equals 4.25 wounds (5/6) = 3.54 dead, round up to 4. This triggers a LD test.

Cultists move up. The 4 remaining fire, 2 hits, 1 wound (2/3), likely one dead IG. They charge, IG fire overwatch with 15 shots. 2 hits, 1 wound (5/6), probably one dead. The Cultists make it into CC and go at the same time. There's now 3 Cultists and 8 IG.

Sure, the rounding doesn't help the Cultists, but if Cultists need to face IG fire for two rounds, they're gonna get shredded.

I do agree it's not a 100% fair comparison. I usually use my Cultists (as most people) to hold objectives in groups of 10-20, but I also enjoy the CCW variant, specifically with MoS. However, they rarely get into CC, and if they do, it's only because my opponent is very new. You don't want 35 CCW MoS Cultists with 3 flamers at 7" away from anything.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
How many cultist will die to overwatch before they even get to combat.

Against 10 IG? 10 Overwatch shouts - 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds(5/6), so 0.625 Cultists per 10 IG.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you are attempting to assault with cultists you are definitely doing something wrong .

I kind of agree. I run them the same reason you like Dreadclaws and Contemptors. They're fun, but they're not good. However, in the last half year I've taken down a Flyrant, Marneus Calgar, and a Daemon Prince with my 35-man CCW Cultist MoS squad.

"I kind of agree. I run them the same reason you like Dreadclaws and Contemptors. They're fun, but they're not good. However, in the last half year I've taken down a Flyrant, Marneus Calgar, and a Daemon Prince with my 35-man CCW Cultist MoS squad. "

Killed a Brother Captain with my 6 KDK cultist, after getting charged. Got FNP, he failed to get force off, and fluffed all but one attack, whcih i saved with FNP. DId 2 wounds back, he stays, following round do one wound, killing him. ABsolutely hilarious

I've also charged orks in the open - only 5 orks left, but 33 atacks (KDK again) gitting first, ittign on 4s and wounding on 5s was more than enough.

Do KDK cultists have furious charge ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Do KDK cultists have furious charge ?

No they;re not Daemons of Khorne

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Do KDK cultists have furious charge ?

No they;re not Daemons of Khorne

They can get FC however, just only at the same time as fnp if in the big detachment.

That's pretty good for cultists.

I've once used them to strike like ork boyz. 7 cultists pulled 8 wounds on a power armored squad of 4 marines. Than all 8 wounds got saved, 1 cultist died and they got swept. But still. 7 dudes pulling 8 wounds in nice. People tend to underestimate them.

You know a melee squad sucks when they get dumpster'd by Tacticals, ahaha.