Veterans with two wounds

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**Slayer-Fan123**

I love Bharring's terrible arguments for justifying anything unbalanced from the Eldar codex. Like a dman137 that actually believes what they say.

Veteran Sergeants aren't JUST like the Marines they lead, just like Exarchs aren't JUST like the Aspects they lead.

**AnomanderRake**

Bharring wrote:
The Exarch armor is to Aspect armor as RoboCop is to a flak jacket. They may have similar purposes, but they aren't in the same league. The Exarch is no longer an Eldar in a similar way, physically speaking, as a Space Marine is no longer a Human.

Can I ask a stupid question?

If Exarch armour is to Aspect armour as robocop is to a flak jacket, why do Exarchs have the exact same armour save as anyone in heavy Aspect armour?

As for the OP's suggestion it's not a bad one but to be logically consistent it's got to be an across-the-board one. If SM Veterans are getting two Wounds Shas'ui, Guard Sergeants, Warlocks and Exarchs, Sybarites/Solarites/Hekiatrix, Sisters Superior, Justicars, and Chaos Aspiring Champions and Daemon champions have to get them too.

**Chapter Master Angelos**

In all honesty, you would be better suited handling Space Marine Veteran Sergeants the same way ForgeWorld has handled Sergeants in 30k. Artificer Armor is a 10 point upgrade for them, so it would stand to reason it would fit for a vet for the same cost in 40k even lending to the Rarity of it.

**Bharring**

Slayer,
Please reread my posts before complaining about me defending Eldar OPness. I shouldn't.need.to begin and end every post with "Eldar are OP and that's a problem".

If you'd read my posts, you'd see the difference between a Sarge and squaddie is nothing like the difference between an Exarch and an Aspect Warrior. One is simply more experienced, whereas the other is a whole different type of being.

The RoboCop vs flak jacket isn't necessarily the same scope of power. The point.is that one *is* the armor, and the other is worn as armor.

What do we do about Wyches or Incubi? Sure, now they have 2W, but they can't one-round their opponents the same way. A good chance of being turned into jelly when they can only ding their opponenr.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

I gave all characters in units an extra wound (to a max of 3) except for the admech, eldar, and Harlequins.

Works pretty well for everyone to have a mini "tank" and make spending points on upgrades more worthwhile.

**HoundsofDemos**

They need to do something to change the veteran sergeant upgrade. As it stands plus one attack and a bump in leadership is not worth 10 points. I would argue that it should be a point at most if not out right free.

**Bharring**

Yeah, SM Sarges don't get a lot for the Vet upgrade. I still usually take it, but for fluff reasons.

**Torus**

"Harlequin Troupe Leaders could certainly go down to 1. And I wouldn't complain too much if Exarchs did too."

Really? Harlequin wise a 1 wound HQ is pretty harsh no?

As for the original question, yes I think veteran sergeants (and chaos champions) should really have 2 wounds as it justifies the additional cost to upgrade them, (and in the champion’s case does something to mitigate their inherent flaws in challenges) makes squads a little bit more beefy and perhaps more importantly makes challenges fun. Full on herohammer might be a bad idea, but I think there is a case to be made for sergeant level characters.

But hey just my opinion.

**epronovost**

I would give 2 wounds only to the squad leaders of the Vanguard, Sternguard, Assault and Tactical Terminator. Come to think of it, I would also give them a WS of 5.

I would also do the same with the Warp Talon Champion (who really ought to have two attack each also), the Possessed Champion, the Chosen Champion and of course the Terminator Champion.

I would also give two wounds to the Klaivex, the Drachon and the Siren. The Drachon would also have WS and BS 5, while the Siren would have WS 6.

The Leader of a mob of Nobz, Meganobz or Flashgitz should have a Strength of 5 and one more Leadership too.

The Eldar Exarchs should stay with their current profile.

Kroot Shaper should have some more option for close combat and a WS of 5.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:

If you'd read my posts, you'd see the difference between a Sarge and squaddie is nothing like the difference between an Exarch and an Aspect Warrior. One is simply more experienced, whereas the other is a whole different type of being.

Still a junk justification.

Sergeants are still a whole other level. Think about all the training and fighting a Space Marine has to go through in the first place before reaching from Scout -> Tactical Marine. They're a lot more battle-hardened, skilled, having to do more than JUST lead the squad, etc. Just saying "Oh, Aspect Warriors are just so much more" is literally junk. I don't care whether or not you think the balance for the Aspect Warrior Sergeants is bad or not; I cared that you bothered trying to justify it.

**Inkubas**

So far seems like 55 % would be OK with some models or all having this boost. I don't feel like this would slow the game down

**HoundsofDemos**

I would give them better BS and WS. right now that veteran status isn't shown.

**Bharring**

Slayer,
Try reading the argument.

Exarchs are *not* "Aspect Warrior Seargents". That is the crux of what is being said. How can you not see that yet?

Sarges might be who they are because they have a century of experience. An Aspect Warrior with centuries of experience is still an Aspect Warrior. Exarchs may have millennia of experience, but that doesn't make them an Exarch. No amount of experience or skill can do that.

I never justified the balance. Please. Reread. Until you can understand that. I *never* defended the 2W for balance reasons. *Only* for fluff reasons.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:
. *Only* for fluff reasons.

That's still not excusable. Neither of them are like the squads they lead. Someone already made the comment that Captains are nothing more than Space Marines with LOTS of experience. Your argument fails and you know it.

**Bobthehero**

Does that mean IG Lt's can get 2W, too?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bobthehero wrote:
Does that mean IG Lt's can get 2W, too?

Less justifiable than Marine and Eldar veterans, but completely valid. ANY human that does well enough to become a frickin veteran in an army where you're sent to die is clearly going to be significantly tougher and more skilled than the soldiers he or she is leading to die.

**Bobthehero**

So... you could see a dude survive a heavy bolter shot because he's got rank?

Mkay...

**Aben Zin**

See I think people are looking at the concept of Wounds wrong- they don't exactly equate to toughness, as in the ability to shrug off a hit, but more the ability to take the hit and keep on going. This is less of a physical thing (though big tough monsters are more likely to have this too), but more psychological.
Think of like any hero from an action film. They get shot, stabbed or glass stuck in their feet but they keep going through force of will. The same things physically wound them, but they're the ones that carry on.

Also, when you think about it, a SM captain almost always was promoted from a veteran sergeant and as they have 3 wounds, vet serges having 2 makes sense as being an in between state.

**Bharring**

Slayer,
Aside from experience, how is a Marine Sarge different than a squaddie?

And as for experience, how does that translate to still being functional with your head blown off?

Captains and other HQs seem to have Wounds to serve as Plot Armor.

**jade_angel**

My read on that is that it's pretty much an abstraction anyway, just like Hit Points in D&D: having 30HP doesn't mean that you got your head chopped off by that greataxe hit that did 29 damage but somehow kept going. It means that somehow, for whatever reason, that hit didn't actually chop off your head, even though it would have done so to someone who's not quite as good at surviving combat.

Likewise, that second wound doesn't mean that you're somehow still fighting despite taking a shuriken cannon to the face - it would mean that you didn't actually get hit in the face, though someone less adept might have. Think of that as whatever combination of toughness, luck, ballsiness, disregard for pain, skill and plot armor makes sense.

**Bharring**

Then let's start looking at it from a balance perspective.

Let's say a DA Exarch with a PL (a pure CC character in a ranged unit) charges an SM squad, and goes into the challenge. He has a fairly good chance of doing one wound. So, as expected, the CC model kitted for killing SMs on the charge kills an SM on the charge if he has 1W. This Exarch has a very low chance of doing 2W in 1 round, though. So let's say the Sarge has 2W. Hell almost certainly survive to fight back. And if he has even a Power Maul, has a high chance of blicking the Exarch in one round. So even well-kitted and getting the charge, and bringing a shooty unit into CC with Marines, the Exarch can't do his thing (and costs as much as that Sarge with the PM). He can't even one-round an IG sarge more often than not.

Even the Banshee Exarch loses the challenge more often than not.

How are other fast and squishy squad leaders going to feel?

adding +1W, even if done for all squad leaders, isn't balanced for a lot of units.

**jade_angel**

Ok, that's a decent argument from a gameplay and balance perspective - the fact that T3 guys get insta-gibbed in CC a lot does make that sticky, and would make the +1W more beneficial for SM/CSM than for CWE/DE/IG/Tau/etc...

**Martel732**

Adding +1 W to space marine sergeants would mean very little in practice. They would be doubled out by knights, TWC w/fists/, WK, etc. All the things that are scary in assault. Eldar would have to shoot an extra gun at that squad, assuming they aren't overkilling the squad already.

**Bharring**

Jade,
It goes beyond just the instagib issue. When the protection a unit has is killing before the rebuttle, doubling both units' resilience actually hurts the unit.

**Martel732**

Eldar aren't counting on Exarchs to come through in HtH. They have WK for that.

**Bharring**

If you're talking about lists that don't take DA Exarchs, sure. But this conversation really isn't affected by that. However, lists that do take Exarchs, or the DE equivalents, tend to not include WKs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(And a PL / pistol Exarch can't be counted on anything but CC...)

**Martel732**

My point is that even with 2W, that's not enough to take them over WK for most Eldar players. Giving marine sergeants 2W would do nothing to change the high end meta.

**jade_angel**

Bharring wrote:
Jade,
It goes beyond just the instagib issue. When the protection a unit has is killing before the rebuttle, doubling both units' resilience actually hurts the unit.

True, I've definitely seen that with, for example, Harlequins or Wytches. They show up and either plow through a unit like a fist through jello, or they bounce off like a wren off a patio door, and then get slaughtered by the return swings.

Ok, given that, I rescind my earlier opinion on this - we're better off with most squad leaders only having W1, with the exceptions being things that have W2 on the base guys anyway (Crisis/Broadside, Paladins, Cents, etc). Costs for squad leaders should be revised, however - 10 points is generally (exceptions exist) too much for just +1A/+1Ld, particularly on units that have no business being in CC like Kabalite Warriors or Fire Warriors. Exarchs are mostly priced OK - some get expensive really fast, but those tend to actually be worth it (Striking Scorpions or Shining Spears, say).

I have some quibbles about other stats, like how a Dracon is only WS4/BS4 but an Archon is WS7/BS7, but that's a separate issue.