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 Witzkatz wrote:
So if you carry a small knife, you also better carry an apple and a kiwi so that you can argue that you need your knife to cut up your morning snack!

So carrying a bigger fruit means you get to carry a bigger knife?

 judgedoug wrote:
how far have the British fallen. once masters of the world, striding across the waves and doing as they pleased, it has come to fearing the local thugs and purchasing a pocket comb for protection

So the emphasis really needs to be on a fast way of incapacitating someone for a few minutes so she can get away

tally ho, a gun would be cracking!

Except as a society, we have decided to limit access to firearms to reduce the side effects of widespread ownership. Also, a gun doesn't incapacitate for a few minutes, it kills permanently (or should if you have had any basic firearms training).

haha, oh Britian. laughable. its like all of the people engaging in this thread are playing a game of make-believe, with self-limiting rules. Now gosh how can we get up these stairs? We aren't allowed to use any of our limbs. If you use a limb you might go to jail!

Wow. Have you ever been to Europe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 Witzkatz wrote:
So if you carry a small knife, you also better carry an apple and a kiwi so that you can argue that you need your knife to cut up your morning snack!

So carrying a bigger fruit means you get to carry a bigger knife?

Yep, up to a maximum of a 3" folding non-locking blade on a penknife. Unless you go to a weapons class or something, then feel free to carry your samurai sword around

 Chute82 wrote:
Schutzhund trained German Shepard

Whilst thoroughly impractical, I daresay this would be a highly effective legal method. You don't get many women raped whilst walking large guard dogs!

Ugh I knew things were bad in the UK but not that bad.

I would go for the brightest, most face meeting tacticool flashlight you can find. More likely it is to make the guy go blind the better. If it can attach to something shecan reach easily even better. Then have an airhorn or some other stupidly loud device. Hopefully between being nearly blind and hearing the airhorn go off the guy will smarten up and run.

I would say the good old 4 D Cell maglight, but from the sound of it, police have carte Blanche to label things as weapons, and that this g sure as hell is known to be used as one. We have a lot of cops in the USA who are straight up trained to use them as clubs, and those things are nasty when they hit a human skull.

Honestly, it sounds like anything you could try and use to defend yourself would be illegal purely because you used it to defend yourself. As we've seen with the US school system, anything can be considered a weapon if they want to count it, even everyday objects. Say you stab the guy in the eye with a pen "well she was clearly carrying it as a weapon for this kind of situation". Etc. Especially weirder things like wasp spray or a brick. They're not gonna buy the "I'm deathly allergic to wasps" story if they're not even allowing mace.

It sound slime you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. You'll either have to carry something that the cops could consider a weapon for peace of mind and risk arrest, or pray the few limited options you have would work in an emergency. Or spend hundreds of pounds in cab fare.

*I am not a lawyer and am an American, take everything I said with a massive grain of salt.

 Ketara wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Schutzhund trained German Shepard

Whilst thoroughly impractical, I daresay this would be a highly effective legal method. You don't get many women raped whilst walking large guard dogs!

Or vice-versa.

 -Shrike- wrote:
a gun doesn't incapacitate for a few minutes, it kills permanently

Alright, for the sake of argument, then why is pepper spray also illegal?

 -Shrike- wrote:
Unless you go to a weapons class or something, then feel free to carry your samurai sword around

Well there it is, she can sign up at the local iaido dojo.

 -Shrike- wrote:
[ Except as a society, we have decided to limit access to firearms to reduce the side effects of widespread ownership. Also, a gun doesn't incapacitate for a few minutes, it kills permanently (or should if you have had any basic firearms training).

Okay, so we've set a standard here... however, and as Manchu mentioned, pepper spray doesn't kill, and yet is illegal? Anecdotally I know three women, one of whom is an ex of mine, who escaped assault and/or rape thanks to the use of their pepper spray to incapacitate an attacker. I could simply not imagine the kind of trauma those three friends of mine would have had to endure for the rest of their lives because self-defense is somehow wrong.

Seems like I'd be breaking a lot of unjust - and, simply put, moronic - laws in order to protect my individual liberties.

My advice to the OP: your girlfriend should do whatever it takes to protect her life and her body, just as the other women assaulted in the same area should have been legally justified to do (as they would certainly have been morally justified to act in self-defense).

Damn that sucks...

How 'bout a can of hairspray? Or, to escalate... hairspray+lighter?

I've known some girls to do just that.

 judgedoug wrote:
Seems like I'd be breaking a lot of unjust - and, simply put, moronic - laws in order to protect my individual liberties.

I wonder to what extent UK citizens think of self-defense as a matter of personal liberty considering the draconian nature of these laws. Non-rhetorical question, if any BritCitizens would care to chime in.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Ugh I knew things were bad in the UK but not that bad.

I would go for the brightest, most face meeting tacticool flashlight you can find. More likely it is to make the guy go blind the better. If it can attach to something shecan reach easily even better. Then have an airhorn or some other stupidly loud device. Hopefully between being nearly blind and hearing the airhorn go off the guy will smarten up and run

I would say the good old 4 D Cell maglight, but from the sound of it, police have carte Blanche to label things as weapons, and that this g sure as hell is known to be used as one. We have a lot of cops in the USA who are straight up trained to use them as clubs, and those things are nasty when they hit a human skull.

That looks like a good brand. After some poking around, there's one they do that has 272 lumens but only 6 1/2 inches long. Might recommend it.

http://maglite.com/shop/flashlights/compact-flashlights/mini-maglite-pro-led-2-cell-aa-flashlight-holster-pack-181.html#.Vpk1LvmLS1s

Honestly, it sounds like anything you could try and use to defend yourself would be illegal purely because you used it to defend yourself. As we've seen with the US school system, anything can be considered a weapon if they want to count it, even everyday objects. Say you stab the guy in the eye with a pen "well she was clearly carrying it as a weapon for this kind of situation". Etc. Especially weirder things like wasp spray or a brick. They're not gonna buy the "I'm deathly allergic to wasps" story if they're not even allowing mace.

It depends on context. If you have a pepper spray, that's clearly there to be used on people. There's not much in the way of spearate civil usage. If you have a small knife, but are carrying fruit though, you'll be alright. If you have a torch, or a hair pin, or suchlike, again, you can say you have a use for it, and you won't be in any trouble. If it's something like a taser though, you'll be visiting the station. If it's a boken, you better make sure you're a dojo member somewhere.

It all boils down to whether or not you have a legitimate civil peaceful purpose other than 'self-defence' for carrying something.

 Ketara wrote:
Last night, gangs of men sexually assaulted two women in the areas of the estate where my girlfriend lives whilst she's at University. Upon checking the police figures, sexual and violent crimes have tripled there in the last year. Naturally, she's quite concerned about all this, and really wants some way of protecting herself.

Unfortunately, British laws are exceptionally tight on personal defence. No guns (obviously), no edged weapons, in fact, no weapons, period. Carrying anything the police judge to be a weapon (which is a very wide range of things) is enough to get arrested. Chemical sprays are also illegal, so no mace or suchlike. About the only designated self-defence items that are legal are a non-toxic staining spray (to later identify people with), and 'rape alarms' which emit a loud noise.

Naturally, I'm trying to find her something a bit more effective than a paint spray and pseudo-car alarm. But the catch is to try and keep it legal. So far, the best I've come up with is a very high powered metal torch (for blinding, 200 lumens plus) that can be used as a club in a pinch, and one of those long combs with a spike on the end.

Any other suggestions Dakka?

Ask your local Police station.

 Ketara wrote:
It all boils down to whether or not you have a legitimate civil peaceful purpose other than 'self-defence' for carrying something.

I'm just a backwater colonial, but in my judgement self-defense (no need to write 'self-defence') is certainly a legitimate civil peaceful purpose.

The very nature of this conversation belies the fundamental injustice of the laws under question. We are talking about buying a heavy flashlight, it being equivalent to an expensive mace or billy club in terms of its intended use vis-a-vis this discussion, to carry around for the purpose of a woman defending herself while at the same time putting self-defense is scare quotes.

 Manchu wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
It all boils down to whether or not you have a legitimate civil peaceful purpose other than 'self-defence' for carrying something.

I'm just a backwater colonial, but in my judgement self-defense (no need to write 'self-defence') is certainly a legitimate civil peaceful purpose.

So, better someone is raped than their attacker is maimed or killed.

 Manchu wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
It all boils down to whether or not you have a legitimate civil peaceful purpose other than 'self-defence' for carrying something.

I'm just a backwater colonial, but in my judgement self-defense (no need to write 'self-defence') is certainly a legitimate civil peaceful purpose.

Indeed.

Pepper spray is basically areosolized cayeene peppers.
http://www.amazon.com/Tones-Ground-Cayenne-Pepper-Shaker/dp/B000EZIEFO

Maybe you can carry a pepper shaker with this stuff? Just throw it at your attacker (you'd get hit too unfortunately).

If the po-po tries to claim it as a weapon, just say that you use it to "spice up" your meals.

The very nature of this conversation belies the fundamental injustice of the laws under question. We are talking about buying a heavy flashlight, it being equivalent to an expensive mace or billy club in terms of its intended use vis-a-vis this discussion, to carry around for the purpose of a woman defending herself while at the same time putting self-defense is scare quotes.

How does the UK court system work? Do you have "trail by jury"? And if so, does the concept of "jury nullification" exist in the UK?

 Manchu wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
It all boils down to whether or not you have a legitimate civil peaceful purpose other than 'self-defence' for carrying something.

I'm just a backwater colonial, but in my judgement self-defense (no need to write 'self-defence') is certainly a legitimate civil peaceful purpose.

The very nature of this conversation belies the fundamental injustice of the laws under question. We are talking about buying a heavy flashlight, for which the intended use makes it equivalent to an expensive mace, to carry around for the purpose of a woman defending herself while at the same time putting self-defense is scare quotes.

The laws were put into place and have been adapted due to the number of people being attacked by 'self-defence' weapons. Samurai swords, tasers, etc, have all been used to attack other people, and so the laws were modified. Knives are iffy, if you have no reason for carrying it you can get in trouble with the police (thanks to the number of gangs which carry knives and commit stabbings, it's a fairly crucial piece of legislation in that area of policing). If it's in a picnic hamper, you're probably safe. If it's a flick knife though (blade on a spring), it's illegal to carry regardless. Context is everything, which is where it's left up to the discretion of the officers. Which is why you generally need a reasonable explanation for carrying.

I'm not sure I agree with the pepper spray one. But even there, it's used offensively from time to time.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/syrian-refugees-grateful-for-support-in-wake-of-pepper-spray-attack-1.2735065
http://www.essexchronicle.co.uk/Sentencing-adjourned-man-admitted-pepper-spray/story-28520121-detail/story.html

The main issue with self-defence weapons, is that they can always be used as offensive weapons. It's a tricky one.

 judgedoug wrote:
So, better someone is raped than their attacker is maimed or killed.

Not even as much as maiming or killing but just, in the case of capsicum spray, being temporarily incapacitated, if even that.

@Ketara: we also have laws against carrying around huge knives, switch blades, and so forth; the exception I take is the apparent assumption that self-defense is illegitimate, which to be fair I don't know whether that is just how you are talking about it ITT or if that reflects British law and cultural attitudes

 Ketara wrote:
It depends on context. If you have a pepper spray, that's clearly there to be used on people.

Yes, absolutely, thankfully so for my ex and two other friends.

 Ketara wrote:
It all boils down to whether or not you have a legitimate civil peaceful purpose other than 'self-defence' for carrying something.

Would "device to discourage a criminal from forcefully inserting his penis into my vagina while I cry and scream and sob whilst he beats me about the face and necks with his fists and I suffer a lifetime of trauma" be a legitimate enough reason?
Or is the entirely legal, non-toxic staining spray even more effective at disabling such reprehensible activities?

Manchu wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
a gun doesn't incapacitate for a few minutes, it kills permanently

Alright, for the sake of argument, then why is pepper spray also illegal?

I don't know. I don't think it should; in my personal opinion, the potential utility of such a device outweighs the downsides.

judgedoug wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
[ Except as a society, we have decided to limit access to firearms to reduce the side effects of widespread ownership. Also, a gun doesn't incapacitate for a few minutes, it kills permanently (or should if you have had any basic firearms training).

Okay, so we've set a standard here... however, and as Manchu mentioned, pepper spray doesn't kill, and yet is illegal? Anecdotally I know three women, one of whom is an ex of mine, who escaped assault and/or rape thanks to the use of their pepper spray to incapacitate an attacker. I could simply not imagine the kind of trauma those three friends of mine would have had to endure for the rest of their lives because self-defense is somehow wrong.

See above for my comments on pepper spray. Also, nobody said self-defence is wrong, merely that we have limited access to objects whose primary purpose is to be a lethal weapon.

Seems like I'd be breaking a lot of unjust - and, simply put, moronic - laws in order to protect my individual liberties.

Humour me for a minute. Precisely which of your individual liberties are limited by these so called "moronic laws"?

My advice to the OP: your girlfriend should do whatever it takes to protect her life and her body, just as the other women assaulted in the same area should have been legally justified to do (as they would certainly have been morally justified to act in self-defense).

They are legally justified to act in self-defence, but their access to weapons is limited. That's the fundamental point of this thread.

 Chute82 wrote:
Did a little research and a Schutzhund trained German Shepard cost around 60k if you want a protection dog. Be cheaper to buy her a car.

But this would be so much fun

http://youtu.be/4cW0vigD6EE

There might be local shelters that train rescued dogs. The dog in my avatar was Schutzhund trained because the people who rehabilitated him before we adopted him worked with lots of Rotties andGerman Shepherds, and he was practically free. You don't even need to Schutzhund train a dog, just get a moderately big dog and train him with German command words.

 Ketara wrote:
The main issue with self-defence weapons, is that they can always be used as offensive weapons. It's a tricky one.

Offensive use of a weapon is illegal, however. People who are willing to break that law will not be deterred by another law which punishes citizens for carrying and using weapons for self-defense. It's not very tricky at all. The only people who really suffer under this regime are the ones who are law abiding.

 -Shrike- wrote:
Humour me for a minute. Precisely which of your individual liberties are limited by these so called "moronic laws"?

I think this is getting to this:

 Manchu wrote:
I wonder to what extent UK citizens think of self-defense as a matter of personal liberty considering the draconian nature of these laws. Non-rhetorical question, if any BritCitizens would care to chime in.

She can't take a martial arts class or something? Certainly self defense classes may help somebody that is looking for self defense.

Perhaps form a neighborhood watch?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Did a little research and a Schutzhund trained German Shepard cost around 60k if you want a protection dog. Be cheaper to buy her a car.

But this would be so much fun

http://youtu.be/4cW0vigD6EE

There might be local shelters that train rescued dogs. The dog in my avatar was Schutzhund trained because the people who rehabilitated him before we adopted him worked with lots of Rotties andGerman Shepherds, and he was practically free. You don't even need to Schutzhund train a dog, just get a moderately big dog and train him with German command words.

Plus German sounds aggressive.

Dogs are one thing but there's law involved there too. Ie agressive dogs get put down.

What about collaspable batons?


It's a "weapon" and packs a wallop in the right hands... so, I'm sure the UK bans that too.

But, I'd rather ask for forgiveness...

 judgedoug wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
It depends on context. If you have a pepper spray, that's clearly there to be used on people.

Yes, absolutely, thankfully so for my ex and two other friends.

 Ketara wrote:
It all boils down to whether or not you have a legitimate civil peaceful purpose other than 'self-defence' for carrying something.

Would "device to discourage a criminal from forcefully inserting his penis into my vagina while I cry and scream and sob whilst he beats me about the face and necks with his fists and I suffer a lifetime of trauma" be a legitimate enough reason?
Or is the entirely legal, non-toxic staining spray even more effective at disabling such reprehensible activities?

I'll be honest squire. I made this thread for the purpose of asking for suggestions to help my girlfriend. So far, your entire contribution has been a ton of sarky and argumentative tripe about the state of Britain and the law there. If you want to have a passive-aggressive de'bait' about that sort of thing, please feel free to go and start your own thread on the matter.

 Manchu wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The main issue with self-defence weapons, is that they can always be used as offensive weapons. It's a tricky one.

Offensive use of a weapon is illegal, however. People who are willing to break that law will not be deterred by another law which punishes citizens for caring and using weapons for self-defense. It's not very tricky at all. The only people who really suffer under this regime are the ones who are law abiding.

I suspect it's more about limiting the supply of potentially offensive weapons, and decreasing the number of them on the streets and available for sale. Otherwise, you end up in the 'Well, why bother making guns illegal? Everyone should carry them to see off violent attackers (who might have guns)' circular debate. Which really has no answer.

 whembly wrote:
What about collaspable batons?


It's a "weapon" and packs a wallop in the right hands... so, I'm sure the UK bans that too.

But, I'd rather ask for forgiveness...

Police batton....
Yes clear illegal

 Ketara wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
It depends on context. If you have a pepper spray, that's clearly there to be used on people.

Yes, absolutely, thankfully so for my ex and two other friends.

 Ketara wrote:
It all boils down to whether or not you have a legitimate civil peaceful purpose other than 'self-defence' for carrying something.

Would "device to discourage a criminal from forcefully inserting his penis into my vagina while I cry and scream and sob whilst he beats me about the face and necks with his fists and I suffer a lifetime of trauma" be a legitimate enough reason?
Or is the entirely legal, non-toxic staining spray even more effective at disabling such reprehensible activities?

I'll be honest squire. I made this thread for the purpose of asking for suggestions to help my girlfriend. So far, your entire contribution has been a ton of sarky and argumentative tripe about the state of Britain and the law there. If you want to have a passive-aggressive de'bait' about that sort of thing, please feel free to go and start your own thread on the matter.

As I said get her to take some martial arts/self defense classes and form a neighborhood watch around her neighborhood. I mean what is british law gonna do make her arms and legs illegal (on the subject of martial arts/self defense)?

 -Shrike- wrote:

Seems like I'd be breaking a lot of unjust - and, simply put, moronic - laws in order to protect my individual liberties.

Humour me for a minute. Precisely which of your individual liberties are limited by these so called "moronic laws"?

Sure! I think it's because I've been raised in a society whose core concept is basically, well, effectively unlimited rights that are limited only by another citizen's rights. The idea of being "born" with these liberties, not granted by anyone, but simply having them for being born. It appears to be, to my mostly untrained eye, that other countries' citizens are merely granted morsels of rights by the fiat of another group of people. So, anyways, put simply, my individual right to life would be limited by someone attempting to take it away from me.

It's important to take into account that a self-defense class is something that has to be done regularly and with conviction, otherwise it'll just create a false sense of security, because she's "doing something". Muscle memory needs to be formed, and a proper response even when suddendly attacked.

A large metal flashlight has been mentioned. As she is traveling at night that is a completely reasonable use. She is not carrying for defensive purposes, just so she won't walk into a wall at night.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


As I said get her to take some martial arts/self defense classes and form a neighborhood watch around her neighborhood. I mean what is british law gonna do make her arms and legs illegal (on the subject of martial arts/self defense)?

Problem is it will take time for those classes to make her effective, especially if she is against more than one person.

What about a can of spray deodorant? Spray that in someone's face and it'd definitely sting their eyes plus irritate their throat and make breathing difficult. I also doubt that any police officer would consider it unusual for a woman to carry a small can of deodorant in her purse/bag, either.

Along side a decent heavy duty torch, of course. Can't remember what make it is but my dad got a torch for christmas which runs on a lithium ion battery and at full beam could illuminate our entire back garden like a mains powered spotlight.