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2016/01/16 13:04:38
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The storm lance battle demi company lets you move 2d6 after shooting. Can i declare shooting with out of range bolt pistols and get the bonus movement (even though im not in range of the intended target)?
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2016/01/16 15:07:39
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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You have to be in range from where the models are at when they shoot. This is the last check before rolling To-Hit or the weapon's equivalent.
There is no permission to use a future position's range when Shooting.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/16 15:08:19
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
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2016/01/16 15:24:52
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Furious Fire Dragon
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So keep one really long range gun so you can perform the attack then skoot along
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2016/01/16 16:26:27
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
The ruins of the Palace of Thorns
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Charistoph wrote:You have to be in range from where the models are at when they shoot. This is the last check before rolling To-Hit or the weapon's equivalent.
There is no permission to use a future position's range when Shooting.
I don't think he is suggesting that you can...
Basically, you declare you are shooting, then measure range. Attempting to shoot counts as shooting, I assume, so yes, once attempting to shoot and finding yourself out of range, you may move 2d6".
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2016/01/16 17:44:34
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I'm not sure shooting happened if no one was in range. This has been debated in the Tau threads and the consensus is that at least one model in the unit actually has to shoot for it to count.
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2016/01/16 18:09:34
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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If you read the rules for the shooting sequence, I think you'll find that you have to "check range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit" you wish to target. If you don't have range or line of sight, you can't select any enemy units as targets. That makes it pretty hard to shoot.
Hence, I would say no, you can't try to target an out of range unit and get your movement. You need to actually make a shooting attack, which includes having range and line of sight.
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2016/01/16 19:10:37
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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 Fifty wrote:Charistoph wrote:You have to be in range from where the models are at when they shoot. This is the last check before rolling To-Hit or the weapon's equivalent.
There is no permission to use a future position's range when Shooting.
I don't think he is suggesting that you can...
It certainly sounded like it when I read it.
Fifty wrote:Basically, you declare you are shooting, then measure range. Attempting to shoot counts as shooting, I assume, so yes, once attempting to shoot and finding yourself out of range, you may move 2d6".
Attempt to shoot does not count as Shooting. It is attempting a Shooting Attack. If no models in the target unit are in range of the Weapons declared, the Weapons do not shoot. The actual verb "shoot" is specifically used when determining if the Weapons are in Range in Who Can Shoot? right before the Rolls To-Hit are made.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
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2016/01/16 19:16:45
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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Charistoph wrote:You have to be in range from where the models are at when they shoot. This is the last check before rolling To-Hit or the weapon's equivalent.
There is no permission to use a future position's range when Shooting.
There is also nothing that requires you to be in range to perform a shooting attack. aka you can go through the shooting sequence even if out of range, you just will have to stop because you have no weapons that are able to fire.
Unless you are telling me a model who fails a "gets hot" roll and thus unable to fire their weapon does not count as having shot that turn? In that case I can try again i guess
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/16 19:18:03
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2016/01/16 19:23:18
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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notredameguy10 wrote:Charistoph wrote:You have to be in range from where the models are at when they shoot. This is the last check before rolling To-Hit or the weapon's equivalent.
There is no permission to use a future position's range when Shooting.
There is also nothing that requires you to be in range to perform a shooting attack. aka you can go through the shooting sequence even if out of range, you just will have to stop because you have no weapons that are able to fire.
Unless you are telling me a model who fails a "gets hot" roll and thus unable to fire their weapon does not count as having shot that turn? In that case I can try again i guess
A shooting attack is not noted by the OP as the requirement, shooting is. You cannot shoot if you are out of range, period. Really, really simple.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/16 19:23:34
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
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2016/01/16 19:49:59
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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Charistoph wrote:notredameguy10 wrote:Charistoph wrote:You have to be in range from where the models are at when they shoot. This is the last check before rolling To-Hit or the weapon's equivalent.
There is no permission to use a future position's range when Shooting.
There is also nothing that requires you to be in range to perform a shooting attack. aka you can go through the shooting sequence even if out of range, you just will have to stop because you have no weapons that are able to fire.
Unless you are telling me a model who fails a "gets hot" roll and thus unable to fire their weapon does not count as having shot that turn? In that case I can try again i guess
A shooting attack is not noted by the OP as the requirement, shooting is. You cannot shoot if you are out of range, period. Really, really simple.
and in the BRB shooting is written synonymously with shooting attack. they are considered the same exact thing.
I agree common sense you cannot shoot, but I am simply stating that according the RAW you can even out of range
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/16 19:51:20
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2016/01/16 20:04:02
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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notredameguy10 wrote:and in the BRB shooting is written synonymously with shooting attack. they are considered the same exact thing.
Where? Also, where does it state a Shooting Attack is complete even if no model shoots?
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
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2016/01/16 20:15:11
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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notredameguy10 wrote:Charistoph wrote:You have to be in range from where the models are at when they shoot. This is the last check before rolling To-Hit or the weapon's equivalent.
There is no permission to use a future position's range when Shooting.
There is also nothing that requires you to be in range to perform a shooting attack. aka you can go through the shooting sequence even if out of range, you just will have to stop because you have no weapons that are able to fire.
Unless you are telling me a model who fails a "gets hot" roll and thus unable to fire their weapon does not count as having shot that turn? In that case I can try again i guess
Uhhh... Actually it's right there in step 3 of 7.
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Its really hard to shoot when you're out of range and can't shoot.
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2016/01/16 21:55:27
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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 deviantduck wrote:notredameguy10 wrote:Charistoph wrote:You have to be in range from where the models are at when they shoot. This is the last check before rolling To-Hit or the weapon's equivalent.
There is no permission to use a future position's range when Shooting.
There is also nothing that requires you to be in range to perform a shooting attack. aka you can go through the shooting sequence even if out of range, you just will have to stop because you have no weapons that are able to fire.
Unless you are telling me a model who fails a "gets hot" roll and thus unable to fire their weapon does not count as having shot that turn? In that case I can try again i guess
Uhhh... Actually it's right there in step 3 of 7.
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Its really hard to shoot when you're out of range and can't shoot.
*sigh* thats the point. You can still do the shooting sequence. You just have to stop at step 3. But you still participated in the shooting sequence
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2016/01/16 21:59:37
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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It might help if we had the actual rule. The wording would affect whether or not what is being asked is possible.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/16 22:00:00
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2016/01/16 22:16:09
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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notredameguy10 wrote:*sigh* thats the point. You can still do the shooting sequence. You just have to stop at step 3. But you still participated in the shooting sequence
And if you stop at step 3 and have been explicitly told you cannot shoot, then on what basis can you claim to have shot for the purpose of fulfilling the OP's question scenario?
 Happyjew wrote:It might help if we had the actual rule. The wording would affect whether or not what is being asked is possible.
"Units from this Formation... can move 2D6" immediately after they shoot in the Shooting phase. Other units... can move D6" immediately after they shoot in the Shooting phase..."
So the requirement is to shoot, rather than simply attempt the Shooting Sequence.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/16 22:48:35
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2016/01/16 23:00:28
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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You either shot or you didn't.
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DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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2016/01/16 23:25:27
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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"Units from this Formation... can move 2D6" immediately after they try to attempt to shoot but don't actually succesfully shoot in the Shooting phase. Other units... can move D6" immediately after they shoot in the Shooting phase..."[/i]
If what is in red was there, I would agree, yes.
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2016/01/17 04:25:33
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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"Units from this Formation... can move 2D6" immediately after they shoot in the Shooting phase. Other units... can move D6" immediately after they shoot in the Shooting phase..."
Per the BRB, normal units can either move(run/turbo/flatout) or shoot in the shooting phase.
Eldar(for comparison) can Battle Focus, which allows them to both run 1d6" and shoot in either order in the shooting phase.
This rule looks to me like it allows the units "from this formation" to shoot then run 2d6". The differences being that their sequence is fixed and that they get another d6" of movement. The wording in the rule means, to me that they must shoot before running. Once they move, they are not allowed to shoot. Movement terminates shooting.
"This unit is shooting at that unit...(measures)...Oh well. the bullets/bolts/razors/lasers hit the ground 20 feet short...Get up and run, boys! We need to see the whites of their eyes!"
Interestingly, it appears that the leadership of the units in this formation inspires their compatriots to get off their a**es and run, too. if not as fast.
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2016/01/17 05:23:09
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Moving and then shooting, or shooting and then moving, is not really the issue being discussed.
WaughGoff wrote:"This unit is shooting at that unit...(measures)...Oh well. the bullets/bolts/razors/lasers hit the ground 20 feet short...Get up and run, boys! We need to see the whites of their eyes!"
This would be a fun piece of flavour text if you have some actual rules to go alongside it. Are you able to provide anything to suggest being explicitly disallowed from shooting due to not being in range ( "Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.") still counts as shooting, though?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/17 05:24:05
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2016/01/17 05:33:27
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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Regardless if you can move or not, you measure the distance at the moment you decide to shoot. Note that you can CHECK ranges before you declare to shoot now, so it's a good idea to check. The moment you declare a shooting attack and a target, your unit's shooting for that turn is gone regardless if it would hit or not.
I have no idea if you can do the 2d6 movement and THEN shoot though (I don't know the specific wording of the formation and I don't have the formation yet), but if you're out of range, you can't just move up 2d6 and magically add that to a shooting attack you made before moving. You're basically asking the bullet to travel forward in time (which, no, is not possible at all in the game).
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Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. |
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2016/01/17 07:00:13
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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WaughGoff wrote:Per the BRB, normal units can either move(run/turbo/flatout) or shoot in the shooting phase.
You forgot the 3rd option: Do Nothing. This is usually performed when a player wants a unit to Charge, but would not be able to if they shot their Weapons or Ran, but sometimes they are just out of range of everything and in good Cover.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Regardless if you can move or not, you measure the distance at the moment you decide to shoot. Note that you can CHECK ranges before you declare to shoot now, so it's a good idea to check. The moment you declare a shooting attack and a target, your unit's shooting for that turn is gone regardless if it would hit or not.
A quote for that would be nice. I haven't seen one yet.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I have no idea if you can do the 2d6 movement and THEN shoot though (I don't know the specific wording of the formation and I don't have the formation yet), but if you're out of range, you can't just move up 2d6 and magically add that to a shooting attack you made before moving. You're basically asking the bullet to travel forward in time (which, no, is not possible at all in the game).
For this rule, it specifically states " after they shoot in the Shooting Phase". So that means they cannot do the movement before you Shoot or if you Run.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
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2016/01/17 07:12:39
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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Charistoph wrote:MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Regardless if you can move or not, you measure the distance at the moment you decide to shoot. Note that you can CHECK ranges before you declare to shoot now, so it's a good idea to check. The moment you declare a shooting attack and a target, your unit's shooting for that turn is gone regardless if it would hit or not.
A quote for that would be nice. I haven't seen one yet.
"Check Ranges before you shoot" or ""moment you declare a shooting attack and a target" part? The first one is under Measuring distance where it's bolded that you can check distances at any time, which by logic means just before you shoot as well. For the second one, it's under "Select a Weapon" in which Check range comes after declaring shooting, selecting a target, and selecting a weapon. That section says at the end that any guns found to be out of range cannot shoot.
Generally, you shouldn't run into a situation where you declare a shot and find that none of your weapons are in range, since you can always check beforehand (and really should). But if you do end up like that, then by RAW you've just wasted a unit's shooting.
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Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. |
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2016/01/17 07:45:05
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Charistoph wrote:MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Regardless if you can move or not, you measure the distance at the moment you decide to shoot. Note that you can CHECK ranges before you declare to shoot now, so it's a good idea to check. The moment you declare a shooting attack and a target, your unit's shooting for that turn is gone regardless if it would hit or not.
A quote for that would be nice. I haven't seen one yet.
"Check Ranges before you shoot" or ""moment you declare a shooting attack and a target" part? The first one is under Measuring distance where it's bolded that you can check distances at any time, which by logic means just before you shoot as well. For the second one, it's under "Select a Weapon" in which Check range comes after declaring shooting, selecting a target, and selecting a weapon. That section says at the end that any guns found to be out of range cannot shoot.
Neither. The " moment you declare a shooting attack and a target, your unit's shooting for that turn is gone regardless if it would hit or not" is the part requiring a quote.
Seriously, this has been asked several times in this thread (and others), but has not been referenced or quoted, just stated as an established fact.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
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2016/01/18 04:20:43
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Charistoph wrote: MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Charistoph wrote:MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Regardless if you can move or not, you measure the distance at the moment you decide to shoot. Note that you can CHECK ranges before you declare to shoot now, so it's a good idea to check. The moment you declare a shooting attack and a target, your unit's shooting for that turn is gone regardless if it would hit or not.
A quote for that would be nice. I haven't seen one yet.
"Check Ranges before you shoot" or ""moment you declare a shooting attack and a target" part? The first one is under Measuring distance where it's bolded that you can check distances at any time, which by logic means just before you shoot as well. For the second one, it's under "Select a Weapon" in which Check range comes after declaring shooting, selecting a target, and selecting a weapon. That section says at the end that any guns found to be out of range cannot shoot.
Neither. The " moment you declare a shooting attack and a target, your unit's shooting for that turn is gone regardless if it would hit or not" is the part requiring a quote.
Seriously, this has been asked several times in this thread (and others), but has not been referenced or quoted, just stated as an established fact.
The Shooting Sequence itself is a quote for that.
The rules don't allow for do-overs, so once you elect to start the shooting sequence for a unit you are stuck resolving the shooting attack for that unit even if that unit does not fire at all. You will wind up expending the units shooting and be unable to choose to run.
An opponent might allow you to do a do-over, but that will be up to them and is not part of the rules.
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2016/01/18 04:32:32
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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col_impact wrote:The Shooting Sequence itself is a quote for that.
The rules don't allow for do-overs, so once you elect to start the shooting sequence for a unit you are stuck resolving the shooting attack for that unit even if that unit does not fire at all. You will wind up expending the units shooting and be unable to choose to run.
An opponent might allow you to do a do-over, but that will be up to them and is not part of the rules.
I think what Charistoph is after is something which supports the contention that resolving the shooting sequence equates to shooting, given the potential for being explicitly disallowed from shooting as part or a result of the shooting sequence.
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2016/01/18 04:53:39
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Lieutenant Colonel
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If a bolter fires in the forest and no one is in range to be shot,
Will it still make a sound?
(but seriously without being in range to shoot, one cannot have shot)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/18 04:54:15
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2016/01/18 04:59:14
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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 Mr. Shine wrote:col_impact wrote:The Shooting Sequence itself is a quote for that.
The rules don't allow for do-overs, so once you elect to start the shooting sequence for a unit you are stuck resolving the shooting attack for that unit even if that unit does not fire at all. You will wind up expending the units shooting and be unable to choose to run.
An opponent might allow you to do a do-over, but that will be up to them and is not part of the rules.
I think what Charistoph is after is something which supports the contention that resolving the shooting sequence equates to shooting, given the potential for being explicitly disallowed from shooting as part or a result of the shooting sequence.
For a unit, resolving the shooting sequence equates to shooting.
For a model, firing a shot equates to shooting.
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2016/01/18 05:09:45
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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And that is based on your interpretation around the lack of an explicit definition of a unit rather than models shooting despite potentially all models therein being disallowed from doing so.
So not what Charistoph is after...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/18 05:10:19
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2016/01/18 05:29:14
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Mr. Shine wrote:And that is based on your interpretation around the lack of an explicit definition of a unit rather than models shooting despite potentially all models therein being disallowed from doing so.
So not what Charistoph is after...
Not really just my interpretation. It's the rules. Units are said to shoot and the way in which the BRB defines a unit shooting is the process of a unit running through the shooting sequence.
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2016/01/18 05:36:00
Subject: Do you have to be in range to be able to shoot?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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What I am saying is that the wording of this rule is less about the dice rolling of the shooting sequence and more about the sequence of events covered by this rule.
Units in this formation are allowed to move 2d6 immediately after they shoot, in the shooting phase.
This means:
1) They may move 2d6 inches. A umique movement value to this rule
2) It must be done AFTER resolving shooting. They may not make this move and then decide to shoot. Once this move is made, this units shooting is done.
3)It must be done BEFORE moving on to another unit. Once shooting is declared by another unit you cannot then come back to this unit and move. Which means that the movement made under this rule may interfere with the shooting phase of other units, so pick your sequence of events carefully. It may block LOS or offer a cover save that was not available beforehand.
A declaration to "cease fire" or "hold your fire" or "get your finger off the trigger and shag your ass" is one of several possible resolutions of the shooting sequence for a unit.
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2500 
2200 
