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 niv-mizzet wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

In English, a slash during a sentence indicates an option choice for the reader. For example: "Good luck with your new son/daughter" is NOT calling the child a "sondaughter," it's giving both options to the reader so that they may apply the relevant one. IE a woman who just found out she was having a son would read the entire sentence as: "Good luck with your new son," ignoring the "/daughter" part completely, because it wasn't selected. And/or is a common one that means the reader may choose to place the word "And" or the word "or" into the spot and continue the sentence.

Example: "Would you like a free cat and/or a free dog?" If this sentence had only "and," it would imply to the reader that they MUST take both if they take any. If it only had "or," it would imply that the reader can ONLY have one, not both. But with and/or in the sentence, the reader is given the option to take either animal alone as well as both.

GW may not have known what it was doing when it wrote the rule (extremely probable given their history,) but the way they wrote it allows you to roll for reserve for the vehicle, the nameless grunts in the unit, OR some named dude coming with them. This leads to some shenanigans:

Example: You can declare Tigurius placed into a unit of Dark Angel tacticals in standard "walk-on" reserve. When you get to turn 2, you may choose to roll for tiggy or the unit, either one will bring the rest of the unit in. If you roll for tiggy and fail, his ability to reroll reserves on units from his own detachment activates, and you may reroll.

As for the land raider statement, that would be illegal. A unit doesn't typically confer deep strike onto a transport. If you did have an IC which allowed a turn 1 reserve roll for himself joined to the unit, you could try to roll on turn 1.

As a note: this ruling is DUMB, but seems to be accurate. I totally recognize the desire to prove it false, but that single "/or" says you can do it, and nothing anywhere else actually says you can't. So you've got permission and no denial anywhere. That meets the minimum for doing it legally.

again there is no RAW permission to pick one of the options to roll for. You roll for the combined unit, the options tell you the different possibilities of the combined unit.

Unit+ IC rolling
Transport with unit+ IC in it rolling

of course the land raider thing is illegal, just as ignoring that a transport cannot arrive this turn by saying you are rolling for the unit inside which could and therefore the transport arrives despite not being allowed to by claiming the combined unit roll lets you pick which part of the combined unit you roll for then apply the result to the rest.

If that were the case shouldn't it read "and IC/transport" not "and/or IC and transport?

blaktoof wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

In English, a slash during a sentence indicates an option choice for the reader. For example: "Good luck with your new son/daughter" is NOT calling the child a "sondaughter," it's giving both options to the reader so that they may apply the relevant one. IE a woman who just found out she was having a son would read the entire sentence as: "Good luck with your new son," ignoring the "/daughter" part completely, because it wasn't selected. And/or is a common one that means the reader may choose to place the word "And" or the word "or" into the spot and continue the sentence.

Example: "Would you like a free cat and/or a free dog?" If this sentence had only "and," it would imply to the reader that they MUST take both if they take any. If it only had "or," it would imply that the reader can ONLY have one, not both. But with and/or in the sentence, the reader is given the option to take either animal alone as well as both.

GW may not have known what it was doing when it wrote the rule (extremely probable given their history,) but the way they wrote it allows you to roll for reserve for the vehicle, the nameless grunts in the unit, OR some named dude coming with them. This leads to some shenanigans:

Example: You can declare Tigurius placed into a unit of Dark Angel tacticals in standard "walk-on" reserve. When you get to turn 2, you may choose to roll for tiggy or the unit, either one will bring the rest of the unit in. If you roll for tiggy and fail, his ability to reroll reserves on units from his own detachment activates, and you may reroll.

As for the land raider statement, that would be illegal. A unit doesn't typically confer deep strike onto a transport. If you did have an IC which allowed a turn 1 reserve roll for himself joined to the unit, you could try to roll on turn 1.

As a note: this ruling is DUMB, but seems to be accurate. I totally recognize the desire to prove it false, but that single "/or" says you can do it, and nothing anywhere else actually says you can't. So you've got permission and no denial anywhere. That meets the minimum for doing it legally.

again there is no RAW permission to pick one of the options to roll for. You roll for the combined unit, the options tell you the different possibilities of the combined unit.

Unit+ IC rolling
Transport with unit+ IC in it rolling

of course the land raider thing is illegal, just as ignoring that a transport cannot arrive this turn by saying you are rolling for the unit inside which could and therefore the transport arrives despite not being allowed to by claiming the combined unit roll lets you pick which part of the combined unit you roll for then apply the result to the rest.

Sorry, but I disagree. The part of the rule that says to roll for the unit and/or its independent character/transport can be read, in correct English, as saying that you can choose and roll for the independent character. Earlier in the combined reserves section, it points out that this roll will drag along any attached units, other IC's and embarked transports he might be on.

For example, let's say Tigurius is alone embarked in a allied BA rhino hanging out in reserve. Tigurius has a rule that says you may reroll reserve rolls for any units in his detachment (which includes himself.) You may choose to roll for either the unit or transport, so if you really wanted him on, you could roll for tiggy so that the reroll will apply, even though it would not apply to the rhino.

I don't think there's really any new information here. The and/or sentence is giving permission to choose the part of the unit that's taking the reserve roll, and the rest of the combined reserves rule drags the unit in along for the ride. I'm really not seeing anything to deny that permission anywhere.

I think the usage of and/or is quite clear, but I guess you don't. Talk it over with your opponent. I certainly plan to, as I don't intend to spring an excessive amount of turn 1 drop pods on anyone in a fun game.

Paoa02 wrote:
If that were the case shouldn't it read "and IC/transport" not "and/or IC and transport?

unit and/or IC and transport.

or

Unit and IC/transport

The second doesn't allow for an unit with IC in transpot, the first does.

regardless of arguing about grammar and syntax, which given GWs record for rules writing. The rule does not allow you to pick one of the units to roll for then apply the roll to the combined unit. You roll for the combined units arrival. Which is arriving when you roll for an unit in a transport, the unit or the transport.

Follow the rules down and arrive the unit by placing it and rolling scatter- which is arriving, the unit or the transport. It is the transport.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

In English, a slash during a sentence indicates an option choice for the reader. For example: "Good luck with your new son/daughter" is NOT calling the child a "sondaughter," it's giving both options to the reader so that they may apply the relevant one. IE a woman who just found out she was having a son would read the entire sentence as: "Good luck with your new son," ignoring the "/daughter" part completely, because it wasn't selected. And/or is a common one that means the reader may choose to place the word "And" or the word "or" into the spot and continue the sentence.

Example: "Would you like a free cat and/or a free dog?" If this sentence had only "and," it would imply to the reader that they MUST take both if they take any. If it only had "or," it would imply that the reader can ONLY have one, not both. But with and/or in the sentence, the reader is given the option to take either animal alone as well as both.

GW may not have known what it was doing when it wrote the rule (extremely probable given their history,) but the way they wrote it allows you to roll for reserve for the vehicle, the nameless grunts in the unit, OR some named dude coming with them. This leads to some shenanigans:

Example: You can declare Tigurius placed into a unit of Dark Angel tacticals in standard "walk-on" reserve. When you get to turn 2, you may choose to roll for tiggy or the unit, either one will bring the rest of the unit in. If you roll for tiggy and fail, his ability to reroll reserves on units from his own detachment activates, and you may reroll.

As for the land raider statement, that would be illegal. A unit doesn't typically confer deep strike onto a transport. If you did have an IC which allowed a turn 1 reserve roll for himself joined to the unit, you could try to roll on turn 1.

As a note: this ruling is DUMB, but seems to be accurate. I totally recognize the desire to prove it false, but that single "/or" says you can do it, and nothing anywhere else actually says you can't. So you've got permission and no denial anywhere. That meets the minimum for doing it legally.

again there is no RAW permission to pick one of the options to roll for. You roll for the combined unit, the options tell you the different possibilities of the combined unit.

Unit+ IC rolling
Transport with unit+ IC in it rolling

of course the land raider thing is illegal, just as ignoring that a transport cannot arrive this turn by saying you are rolling for the unit inside which could and therefore the transport arrives despite not being allowed to by claiming the combined unit roll lets you pick which part of the combined unit you roll for then apply the result to the rest.

Sorry, but I disagree. The part of the rule that says to roll for the unit and/or its independent character/transport can be read, in correct English, as saying that you can choose and roll for the independent character. Earlier in the combined reserves section, it points out that this roll will drag along any attached units, other IC's and embarked transports he might be on.

For example, let's say Tigurius is alone embarked in a allied BA rhino hanging out in reserve. Tigurius has a rule that says you may reroll reserve rolls for any units in his detachment (which includes himself.) You may choose to roll for either the unit or transport, so if you really wanted him on, you could roll for tiggy so that the reroll will apply, even though it would not apply to the rhino.

I don't think there's really any new information here. The and/or sentence is giving permission to choose the part of the unit that's taking the reserve roll, and the rest of the combined reserves rule drags the unit in along for the ride. I'm really not seeing anything to deny that permission anywhere.

I think the usage of and/or is quite clear, but I guess you don't. Talk it over with your opponent. I certainly plan to, as I don't intend to spring an excessive amount of turn 1 drop pods on anyone in a fun game.

and doing that allows you to roll for an IC inside an unit to arrive. Which would allow for an unit to arrive turn 1 that cannot based on the IC having a rule which would allow it to arrive. Despite that not being what the combined unit rule says, and also violating the rules about how special rules transfer between units and ICs.

I think the usage of and/or is quite clear, but I guess you don't.

For me it's simply:

Does the Drop Pod have the Rite of Teleportation?

Because, regardless of word limboing, you have to roll for the Drop pod in some way or form, or the GKs are coming down on their own. If the Drop Pod does not have Rite of Teleportation, then it cannot roll on the first turn even if it's passengers can.

40k is, once again, a game of permissions. As one half of the combined unit does not have permission, the whole unit does not have permission.

EDIT: And as far as I know, nothing in the rules written would allow a transported unit to grant RoT on their transport (as someone back there pointed out, Infiltrate has a special line for this).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
For me it's simply:

Does the Drop Pod have the Rite of Teleportation?

Because, regardless of word limboing, you have to roll for the Drop pod in some way or form, or the GKs are coming down on their own. If the Drop Pod does not have Rite of Teleportation, then it cannot roll on the first turn even if it's passengers can.

40k is, once again, a game of permissions. As one half of the combined unit does not have permission, the whole unit does not have permission.

EDIT: And as far as I know, nothing in the rules written would allow a transported unit to grant RoT on their transport (as someone back there pointed out, Infiltrate has a special line for this).

Incorrect. All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

col_impact wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
For me it's simply:

Does the Drop Pod have the Rite of Teleportation?

Because, regardless of word limboing, you have to roll for the Drop pod in some way or form, or the GKs are coming down on their own. If the Drop Pod does not have Rite of Teleportation, then it cannot roll on the first turn even if it's passengers can.

40k is, once again, a game of permissions. As one half of the combined unit does not have permission, the whole unit does not have permission.

EDIT: And as far as I know, nothing in the rules written would allow a transported unit to grant RoT on their transport (as someone back there pointed out, Infiltrate has a special line for this).

Incorrect. All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. Rites of Teleportation is not required.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

That line of thinking is incorrect as without Rite of Teleportation, not even Grey Knights can make the reserve roll.

Permissions, again, are required. A Drop Pod is not permitted to make a reserve roll on Turn 1 of it's own accord, it either comes in or has to wait for reserve rolls on subsequent turns. Grey Knight units that are from the Nemesis Strikeforce Detachment is granted Rite of Teleportation, and with it are allowed to make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1. However, as they are a combined unit with the Drop Pod, but nowhere did it state that they can grant Rite of Teleportation to their transport, then they cannot make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1, as their Transport does not have that rule and Rite of Teleportation is not conferred upon it as the Drop Pod is not part of the Detachment.

Also, I don't know if anyone posted an exerpt, but does it state anywhere in the rulebook that a unit embarked on a transport in Deepstrike Reserve is actually IN Deepstrike Reserve? This is different from making a roll for the entire unit, as if the Grey Knight Unit is not physically in the reserve, Rite of Teleportation doesn't even kick in.

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

I finally made it home to check my rule books. According to C:SM pg 158 :


Now the Arriving from Reserves rule (from BRB pg 135):


And now Rites of Teleportation (I don't own C:GK, so this is take from BattleScribe. Make of that what you will):



Based on the RAW, I'm going to agree that a Drop Pod in a Nemesis Strike Force could roll for reserves on turn one. So now my question is, how did he get Drop Pods? They aren't a dedicated transport for anything in the NSF, so they had to be taken as Fast Attack in an Allied Detachment if the lists were battleforged. Did your opponent have an HQ and Troop choice for each Drop Pod used?

That line of thinking is incorrect as without Rite of Teleportation, not even Grey Knights can make the reserve roll.

Allow me to restate, clarifying items that confused you.


All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.



Rites of Teleportation does not need to be conferred to the Drop Pod. All that needs to be conferred is the Reserves Roll. The Combined Unit rules allow the Grey Knight unit to roll for the Combined Unit.

axisofentropy wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

This is compelling. Anyone else contest?

Easily.

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

col_impact wrote:
The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

This is correct, but we already covered it.

col_impact wrote:
The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

So far so good.

col_impact wrote:
The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

To be proper, the Grey Knight unit receives the option to roll reserves on turn 1.

col_impact wrote:
Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

True.

col_impact wrote:
If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

And here we jump over a couple facts. The Grey Knight unit is listed as receiving the benefit, not the combined unit any Grey Knight is in, and that is part of the problem with this approach. It is considering one part of this combined unit to provide its bonuses without permission, either in basic or as yet quoted in Advanced, to apply it to a combined unit.

Now, the Drop Pod gets around this because it is carrying the unit, so its rules are allowed to come in to play for this as it carries whatever unit is inside it. The Grey Knight unit is not noted for having done this.

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

Not really. It is PART of a Combined Unit in Reserves.

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight receives a Reserve Roll on turn one.

But only noted for its unit, not noted for anything else connected with it such as its Transport or any Combined Unit.

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

Except its not allowed to activate the early Reserve Roll for the combined unit or Transport that is carrying the unit.

No permission, no access.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

Since it is carrying the unit and the unit is not allowed to transfer this benefit to its transport, it definitely needs the Rites.

col_impact wrote:
The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

For the unit itself, yes. Not ever everything connected to it, and that is the difference.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

Not really. It is PART of a Combined Unit in Reserves.

Incorrect. The Grey Knight is in Reserves and in a Combined Unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

Except its not allowed to activate the early Reserve Roll for the combined unit or Transport that is carrying the unit.

No permission, no access.

Incorrect. Clearly stated in the Combined Unit rule.

col_impact wrote:

That line of thinking is incorrect as without Rite of Teleportation, not even Grey Knights can make the reserve roll.

Allow me to restate, clarifying items that confused you.


All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

And let me restate the items confusing you:

- How does the Drop Pod roll for Reserves on the First Turn if it does not use Rites of Teleportation?
- If not, it means that it must require it to do so. Does this mean the Drop Pod part of the Grey Knight's NSF detachment despite having an invalid faction AND being part of another Detachment?

Whether or not the Grey Knights can make the roll is irrelevant. As long as one part of their combined unit cannot do something, the entire unit cannot.

I will concede though that the Grey Knight Units are in Deep Strike, as i found a page that mentions it (forgot which one though but it was in the reserve section).

EDIT: Charistoph basically said everything I did. but with far more sass.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

Since it is carrying the unit and the unit is not allowed to transfer this benefit to its transport, it definitely needs the Rites.

Incorrect. No rule prevents arriving from reserves on turn 1. It's just Reserve Rolls are hard to come by. They normally only start being doled out on turn 2.

The Drop is not required to have Rites of Teleportation to arrive from reserves on turn 1. All that the Drop Pod requires is a Reserves Roll.

The Grey Knight provides the Reserves Roll per the Combined Unit rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

That line of thinking is incorrect as without Rite of Teleportation, not even Grey Knights can make the reserve roll.

Allow me to restate, clarifying items that confused you.


All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

And let me restate the items confusing you:

- How does the Drop Pod roll for Reserves on the First Turn if it does not use Rites of Teleportation?

The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to supply the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit (of the Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit).

Actually the exact wording of "Rites of Teleportation" states that "Instead of", which means that it is indeed an Advanced Rule since it specifically has to override the normal Reserve rules.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Actually the exact wording of "Rites of Teleportation" states that "Instead of", which means that it is indeed an Advanced Rule since it specifically has to override the normal Reserve rules.

There is no rule in the BRB which prevents units from arriving from Reserves on turn 1. Provided a unit can somehow have a Reserve Roll made on its behalf it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. A Reserves Roll is all that is required.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

For the unit itself, yes. Not ever everything connected to it, and that is the difference.

The Combined Unit rules disagree with you.

Now I don't have my book with me to confirm this, but I seem to remember that Rights of Teleportation specifies that the units must arrive using some form of teleportation.

Can anyone check this?

Jedly wrote:
Now I don't have my book with me to confirm this, but I seem to remember that Rights of Teleportation specifies that the units must arrive using some form of teleportation.

Can anyone check this?

Negative ... unit must merely be in DSR.

Since I've been reading and following this thread all day, I figured I would actually crawl out from under my rock and post something.

I believe niv-mizzet has got this the most correct. GW probably didn't know what they were writing. However, their stupidity or laziness does not change what the rule says. He is right "and/or" is giving the reader permission to read it as "and" or "or". I do not think that was their intention, but ya know, dumb people do dumb things and that's one of them. I can choose to read the sentence as "In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character/Transport vehicle." or "In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle." If I read it as "or" that has given me permission to pick the unit. It does also give me the option of choosing the IC if their is one, or the transport vehicle. Following this rule as written, a GK libby brought as part of a NSF can in fact cause a unit of lets say Tempestus Scions, to arrive turn one, because I am allowed to roll one reserve roll for the IC, and apply the result to both units.

My thought is that they meant to write the sentence as "In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character and/or Transport vehicle."

Unfortunately for us, they did not.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules prevent rolling for Reserves by virtue of not allowing them to be rolled in the first place. In order to roll Reserves on Turn 1, an Advanced Rules is needed to give permission to roll Reserves at this point. It is not an active restriction, but a passive restriction. Much like Charging in the Shooting Phase or Movement Phase. You are not prevented from doing so, but you are not allowed to, either.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

Not really. It is PART of a Combined Unit in Reserves.

Incorrect. The Grey Knight is in Reserves and in a Combined Unit.

Spoiler:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

See, it is part of a Combined unit in Reserves, but only for the rolling. Still nothing about granting the rules, benefits, or bonuses across the combined unit. Once they are put together, you technically are not allowed to separate them again (at least once deployment is complete, any way).

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

Except its not allowed to activate the early Reserve Roll for the combined unit or Transport that is carrying the unit.

No permission, no access.

Incorrect. Clearly stated in the Combined Unit rule.

Spoiler:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

I don't see where it says that it can use any Reserves bonus rules for the Transport it is in a combined unit with. I do not see how they are sharing rules. I see that they roll for both together, but nothing about using the Embarked's Reserves rules to modify when or how this roll is made.

How is this any different from a Charge?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

Since it is carrying the unit and the unit is not allowed to transfer this benefit to its transport, it definitely needs the Rites.

Incorrect. No rule prevents arriving from reserves on turn 1. It's just Reserve Rolls are hard to come by. They normally only start being doled out on turn 2.

The Drop is not required to have Rites of Teleportation to arrive from reserves on turn 1. All that the Drop Pod requires is a Reserves Roll.

The Grey Knight provides the Reserves Roll per the Combined Unit rule.

But neither the Reserves rules nor the Rites of Teleportation state this. Rites of Teleportation is only for the unit, not for combined units or the unit's Transports. Reserves rules do not state you can use a unit's special Reserves rules on a Transport that is carrying them.

col_impact wrote:The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to supply the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit (of the Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit).

Spoiler:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

That does not state anything about it allowing to supply an Advanced Reserve Roll to its combined unit.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules prevent rolling for Reserves by virtue of not allowing them to be rolled in the first place. In order to roll Reserves on Turn 1, an Advanced Rules is needed to give permission to roll Reserves at this point. It is not an active restriction, but a passive restriction. Much like Charging in the Shooting Phase or Movement Phase. You are not prevented from doing so, but you are not allowed to, either.

You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf the Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1.

The Drop Pod does not itself need Rites of Teleportation; the Drop Pod only needs a Reserve Roll somehow.

Fortunately, the Grey Knight unit gets a Reserve Roll from the Rites of Teleportation.

The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to make the roll for the Combined Unit. Fortunately, the Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

Since the Drop Pod now has a Reserve Roll made on its behalf, if the roll is successful, the Combined Unit will arrive together from Deep Strike Reserve.

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

I finally made it home to check my rule books. According to C:SM pg 158 :

Spoiler:

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally. Once a Drop Pod lands, all passengers must disembark and no models can embark for the rest of the game.

Now the Arriving from Reserves rule (from BRB pg 135):

Spoiler:

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a d6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

And now Rites of Teleportation (I don't own C:GK, so this is take from BattleScribe. Make of that what you will):

Spoiler:

Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

Based on the RAW, I'm going to agree that a Drop Pod in a Nemesis Strike Force could roll for reserves on turn one. So now my question is, how did he get Drop Pods? They aren't a dedicated transport for anything in the NSF, so they had to be taken as Fast Attack in an Allied Detachment if the lists were battleforged. Did your opponent have an HQ and Troop choice for each Drop Pod used?

He had allies. Blood angels. He bought 3 5 man tac units all with drop pods, and a librarian, and 2 extra drop pods. It dosent matter, I have already refused to play him again with that cheeze.

2 drop pods with 2 ten man squads of grey knights came down between 6 units, he did 3 novas (it could have been 4, but everything was dead) and that was basically game. I dont want to have to run coteaz and a culexus assassin in every list to avoid BS like this.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules prevent rolling for Reserves by virtue of not allowing them to be rolled in the first place. In order to roll Reserves on Turn 1, an Advanced Rules is needed to give permission to roll Reserves at this point. It is not an active restriction, but a passive restriction. Much like Charging in the Shooting Phase or Movement Phase. You are not prevented from doing so, but you are not allowed to, either.

You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

Fine, if I am incorrect, show me in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod may make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1.

See, lack of permission is a restriction in permissive ruleset.

Are we restricted from Charging in the Movement Phase and Shooting Phase? The answer is yes. Why? Because we do not have permission to do so. Are Drop Pods able to roll Reserves on Turn 1? Not with any Basic rules, but only with Advanced rules.

col_impact wrote:
If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf the Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1.

That is true, and it requires an Advanced rule to access it.

col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does not itself need Rites of Teleportation; the Drop Pod only needs a Reserve Roll somehow.

It needs Rites of Teleportation, or similar, to receive access to that Reserve Roll somehow. We are not permitted to give the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll of Rites of Teleportation, though, nor to include it in its affects.

col_impact wrote:
Fortunately, the Grey Knight unit gets a Reserve Roll from the Rites of Teleportation.

Not in argument, but only part of the combined unit has it, not all, nor does it grant it beyond the units of the Detachment. And that is the problem.

col_impact wrote:
The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to make the roll for the Combined Unit. Fortunately, the Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

No, it does not. No where does it state that one unit makes it for the entire unit. It simply states that one roll is made for all. No rules are stated for situations where one part of the combined unit may have access to other rules, especially when it is being carried by the other part of the combined unit.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules prevent rolling for Reserves by virtue of not allowing them to be rolled in the first place. In order to roll Reserves on Turn 1, an Advanced Rules is needed to give permission to roll Reserves at this point. It is not an active restriction, but a passive restriction. Much like Charging in the Shooting Phase or Movement Phase. You are not prevented from doing so, but you are not allowed to, either.

You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

Fine, if I am incorrect, show me in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod may make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1.

See, lack of permission is a restriction in permissive ruleset.

No. You must show in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod that has a Reserve Roll cannot use it turn 1. You will be unable to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf the Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1.

That is true, and it requires an Advanced rule to access it.

Nope. No Advanced rule required to access it. The Drop Pod just needs a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf turn 1. The basic Reserve Roll rule works fine. Roll a D6 and on a 3+ come in from Reserve. Drop Pod can then exercise abilities it already has and meets no restrictions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does not itself need Rites of Teleportation; the Drop Pod only needs a Reserve Roll somehow.

It needs Rites of Teleportation, or similar, to receive access to that Reserve Roll somehow. We are not permitted to give the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll of Rites of Teleportation, though, nor to include it in its affects.

Wrong again. The Combined Unit rule allows the GK unit to make a Reserve Roll for the Comined Unit. The Drop Pod does not need Rites of Teleportation since no rule is actively restricting arrival from reserves on turn 1. All it needs is a Reserve Roll which the GK unit provides via the Combined Unit rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Fortunately, the Grey Knight unit gets a Reserve Roll from the Rites of Teleportation.

Not in argument, but only part of the combined unit has it, not all, nor does it grant it beyond the units of the Detachment. And that is the problem.

Which is fine - there is no problem. The Drop Pod has no need of the Rites of Teleportation. It only needs a basic Reserve Roll on turn 1 which the GK unit provides via the Combined Unit rule.

The problem your argument has is that there is no rule actively taking away the ability to come in from reserves on turn 1, only the scarcity of Reserve Rolls. Luckily, the GK unit provides one for its Combined Unit. Absolutely no Advanced rules are required for the Drop Pod to arrive turn 1, just a Reserve Roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to make the roll for the Combined Unit. Fortunately, the Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

No, it does not. No where does it state that one unit makes it for the entire unit. It simply states that one roll is made for all. No rules are stated for situations where one part of the combined unit may have access to other rules, especially when it is being carried by the other part of the combined unit.

As you agree, the GK unit makes one roll for the Combined Unit. This works fine. The Drop Pod only needed to have a Reserve Roll made for it, which the GK unit does, as you note. There are no rules in effect to actively prevent the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on Turn 1 so once the Drop Pod has the Reserve Roll made for it and it succeeds, the Combined Unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve, having met absolutely no restrictions from doing just that.

Again, you need to find an actual rule in the BRB that restricts arriving from reserves on turn 1 or prove that the Drop Pod is not part of the Combined Unit. Otherwise my argument wins out. I have traced a clear chain of permission and you have utterly failed to show a rule that actively prevents units that have Reserve Rolls from arriving from reserves on turn 1. Until you show an actual rule that restricts the Drop Pod from arriving on turn one, the Drop Pod has no need to inherit any Advanced rules. The Drop Pod, as I have brought up many times, only requires the Reserve Roll that the GK unit provides for the Combined Unit.

 Orock wrote:

He had allies. Blood angels. He bought 3 5 man tac units all with drop pods, and a librarian, and 2 extra drop pods. It dosent matter, I have already refused to play him again with that cheeze.

2 drop pods with 2 ten man squads of grey knights came down between 6 units, he did 3 novas (it could have been 4, but everything was dead) and that was basically game. I dont want to have to run coteaz and a culexus assassin in every list to avoid BS like this.

Then the list had to be Unbound. The Allied Detachment only allows 1 FA choice, so he would have had to bring another HQ and another troop choice in order to have two. If the lists were supposed to be Battleforged, his was illegal. Not that it matters if you already said you wouldn't play with him anymore. Honestly, even if the whole situation was legal per RAW, the whole situation obviously goes against the idea of fair play. If your only response to a complaint from another player is "Well there's no rule against it", you are probably a jackhole anyway.

It would appear that the combined reserve units paragraph views multiple units that come in at the same time as multiple units.

If you have unit A with attached Independent Character B riding in Transport Vehicle C in reserves, they are Combined Reserve Units D.

But the rules do not ever say you roll for Combined Reserve Units D.

They say you roll for Unit A and/or Independent Character B/ Transport Vehicle C.

However whichever you roll for, whether it be Unit A and Independent Character B/ Transport Vehicle C, just Unit A or Independent Character B/ Transport Character C the result is Combined Reserve Units D arrives from reserves.

If I roll a reserves roll for Unit A, I roll a reserves roll for Unit A, not Combined Reserve Units D.

Combined Reserve Units D has no special rules, at all, it is not a unit. it's more akin to a formation with a special rule allowing multiple units to share a single reserves roll. I don't think that was the writers intention at all, but that's how they wrote it.

Charistoph, I feel like you are getting hung up on Transport Vehicle B not having a special rule, and that the special rule from Unit A must transfer for it to work, but that's not how the Combined Reserve Units paragraph reads.

As it reads, you only roll for Transport Vehicle C if you so choose, if you choose to, then yes, absolutely, it needs the rule. But if you choose not to roll for Transport Vehicle C, then you don't roll for it and therefore it has no need of a special rule. That seems counter intuitive, but that's what the rule says.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

Fine, if I am incorrect, show me in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod may make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1.

See, lack of permission is a restriction in permissive ruleset.

No. You must show in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod that has a Reserve Roll cannot use it turn 1. You will be unable to.

That is NOT what I've been saying, though. I have been saying that a Drop Pod does not have access to the Reserve Roll on Turn 1 through Basic rules. This is because the Basic rules only allow for Reserves Rolls on Turn 2, not Turn 1. So, Advanced Rules are required to provide the Reserve Roll on Turn 1.

That is different kettle of fish from being prevented from using a Reserve Roll that becomes available on Turn 1.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf the Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1.

That is true, and it requires an Advanced rule to access it.

Nope. No Advanced rule required to access it. The Drop Pod just needs a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf turn 1. The basic Reserve Roll rule works fine. Roll a D6 and on a 3+ come in from Reserve. Drop Pod can then exercise abilities it already has and meets no restrictions.

Yes, it requires an Advanced rule since the Basic rule does not allow for Reserve Rolls on Turn 1. The Advanced Rule is what provides that access.

If you think otherwise, review the Reserves rules and quote the section that states that a unit may be rolled for on Turn 1.

The ability for Drop Pods to come in on Turn 1 without even rolling for Reserves is an Advanced rule, remember?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does not itself need Rites of Teleportation; the Drop Pod only needs a Reserve Roll somehow.

It needs Rites of Teleportation, or similar, to receive access to that Reserve Roll somehow. We are not permitted to give the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll of Rites of Teleportation, though, nor to include it in its affects.

Wrong again. The Combined Unit rule allows the GK unit to make a Reserve Roll for the Comined Unit. The Drop Pod does not need Rites of Teleportation since no rule is actively restricting arrival from reserves on turn 1. All it needs is a Reserve Roll which the GK unit provides via the Combined Unit rules.

You have quoted nothing that allows this to be applied to any combined unit. The rule quoted earlier only applies to the units themselves. As such, we have no permission to share it any more than Deep Strike itself. Nor do we have permission to ignore the part of a combined unit that does not have the capacity any more than we can ignore a model that fired a Heavy Weapon at the beginning of the Assault Phase.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Fortunately, the Grey Knight unit gets a Reserve Roll from the Rites of Teleportation.

Not in argument, but only part of the combined unit has it, not all, nor does it grant it beyond the units of the Detachment. And that is the problem.

Which is fine - there is no problem. The Drop Pod has no need of the Rites of Teleportation. It only needs a basic Reserve Roll on turn 1 which the GK unit provides via the Combined Unit rule.

The problem your argument has is that there is no rule actively taking away the ability to come in from reserves on turn 1, only the scarcity of Reserve Rolls. Luckily, the GK unit provides one for its Combined Unit. Absolutely no Advanced rules are required for the Drop Pod to arrive turn 1, just a Reserve Roll.

No, there is no problem with my argument because you do not understand it, as I have demonstrated it above. The Grey Knights have a rule allowing to roll, but not the Drop Pod. The Drop Pod is carrying the Grey Knights, not the other way around. The rule the Grey Knights have do not grant the benefits to their carrying Transport like Infiltration and Scout do (and those only work for Dedicated Transports).

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to make the roll for the Combined Unit. Fortunately, the Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

No, it does not. No where does it state that one unit makes it for the entire unit. It simply states that one roll is made for all. No rules are stated for situations where one part of the combined unit may have access to other rules, especially when it is being carried by the other part of the combined unit.

As you agree, the GK unit makes one roll for the Combined Unit. This works fine. The Drop Pod only needed to have a Reserve Roll made for it, which the GK unit does, as you note. There are no rules in effect to actively prevent the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on Turn 1 so once the Drop Pod has the Reserve Roll made for it and it succeeds, the Combined Unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve, having met absolutely no restrictions from doing just that.

Again, you need to find an actual rule in the BRB that restricts arriving from reserves on turn 1 or prove that the Drop Pod is not part of the Combined Unit. Otherwise my argument wins out. I have traced a clear chain of permission and you have utterly failed to show a rule that actively prevents units that have Reserve Rolls from arriving from reserves on turn 1. Until you show an actual rule that restricts the Drop Pod from arriving on turn one, the Drop Pod has no need to inherit any Advanced rules. The Drop Pod, as I have brought up many times, only requires the Reserve Roll that the GK unit provides for the Combined Unit.

I have a rule that Drop Pods are not natively allowed to roll Reserves until Turn 2. That's Basic Reserves rules right there. If they were part of a detachment that granted them the ability to roll on Turn 1, there would be no problem, but they are not noted as such. Nor does the Grey Knights' rule grant this ability to Transports they embark upon. It only allows the units from that detachment to do so, and the combined unit in question is not completely from that detachment nor granted leave to share benefits like ICs are.

EnTyme wrote:

 Orock wrote:

He had allies. Blood angels. He bought 3 5 man tac units all with drop pods, and a librarian, and 2 extra drop pods. It dosent matter, I have already refused to play him again with that cheeze.

2 drop pods with 2 ten man squads of grey knights came down between 6 units, he did 3 novas (it could have been 4, but everything was dead) and that was basically game. I dont want to have to run coteaz and a culexus assassin in every list to avoid BS like this.

Then the list had to be Unbound. The Allied Detachment only allows 1 FA choice, so he would have had to bring another HQ and another troop choice in order to have two. If the lists were supposed to be Battleforged, his was illegal. Not that it matters if you already said you wouldn't play with him anymore. Honestly, even if the whole situation was legal per RAW, the whole situation obviously goes against the idea of fair play. If your only response to a complaint from another player is "Well there's no rule against it", you are probably a jackhole anyway.

I think he used a CAD for the allied Blood Angels detachment. Perfectly legal. Just because a detachment is allied, does not always make it an Allied Detachment.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

Fine, if I am incorrect, show me in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod may make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1.

See, lack of permission is a restriction in permissive ruleset.

No. You must show in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod that has a Reserve Roll cannot use it turn 1. You will be unable to.

That is NOT what I've been saying, though. I have been saying that a Drop Pod does not have access to the Reserve Roll on Turn 1 through Basic rules. This is because the Basic rules only allow for Reserves Rolls on Turn 2, not Turn 1. So, Advanced Rules are required to provide the Reserve Roll on Turn 1.

That is different kettle of fish from being prevented from using a Reserve Roll that becomes available on Turn 1.

The Drop Pod does have access to the Reserve Roll on turn 1. The Grey Knight provides the Drop Pod with the Reserve Roll per the Combined Unit rule. The GK unit makes the Reserve Roll on its behalf. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

The Drop Pod does not need any Advanced Rule to be able to arrive turn 1. The Reserve Roll is all that is needed.

Reserve Rolls are defined as . .



Normally the Reserve Rolls are handed out "at the start of your second turn". The GK unit, however, is able to provide one for the Combine Unit on turn one. If the Reserve Roll is successful, the Combined Unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one, facing no restrictions.

There is no rule that prevents the Reserve Roll from applying to the Drop Pod. There is no rule which states that units cannot arrive from Reserves on turn one. There is only a rule which hands out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2. The Reserve Rolls themselves are what provide the permission to arrive from Reserves. If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll it can arrive from reserves on whichever turn it happens to be. The GK unit provides the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll on turn one as part of the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.


Charistophe, you need to quit fuddling around and provide an actual restriction that would prevent a Drop Pod from arriving on turn one that is legally provided a Reserve Roll on turn one. If you cannot, my argument wins. In fact, it's becoming more and more obvious in this thread that you have already lost.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Orock wrote:

He had allies. Blood angels. He bought 3 5 man tac units all with drop pods, and a librarian, and 2 extra drop pods. It dosent matter, I have already refused to play him again with that cheeze.

2 drop pods with 2 ten man squads of grey knights came down between 6 units, he did 3 novas (it could have been 4, but everything was dead) and that was basically game. I dont want to have to run coteaz and a culexus assassin in every list to avoid BS like this.

Then the list had to be Unbound. The Allied Detachment only allows 1 FA choice, so he would have had to bring another HQ and another troop choice in order to have two. If the lists were supposed to be Battleforged, his was illegal. Not that it matters if you already said you wouldn't play with him anymore. Honestly, even if the whole situation was legal per RAW, the whole situation obviously goes against the idea of fair play. If your only response to a complaint from another player is "Well there's no rule against it", you are probably a jackhole anyway.

why would it have to be an allied detachment and not a second CAD?

...or any other detachment.

EnTyme I think yo uare stuck in 6th; "Allies" do not have to use the Allied Detachment.