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What's the deal for the Hellfrost Pistol? The rules for it are in the datasheet thing, but, as far as I can see, no Wulfen can take it as an option. Or am I being blind?

There's been some discourse on that. Ulrik or a different character model probably will get the option in the book.

I thought it was confirmed that the SW also got new spell cards and formations (one for each of the great companies).

I made the mistake of actually getting excited by this announcement, but looking through the thread I'm much more ambivalent now. I had collected a small force of 13th Co. from the old Eye of Terror codex years ago (never really finished it before the 13th Co. miniatures went OOP) as I really loved the look of them back then. Much less impressed with these new pics, especially the new Wulfen.

sturguard wrote:
I thought it was confirmed that the SW also got new spell cards and formations (one for each of the great companies).

Not new cards, yes new formations.

 mdauben wrote:
I made the mistake of actually getting excited by this announcement, but looking through the thread I'm much more ambivalent now. I had collected a small force of 13th Co. from the old Eye of Terror codex years ago (never really finished it before the 13th Co. miniatures went OOP) as I really loved the look of them back then. Much less impressed with these new pics, especially the new Wulfen.

Then go on Ebay, buy more of the old models and do not worry about WYSISYG and use your models with the rules and .....?
Unless for some reason the rules do not excite you and if that is the case I do not know what can help you.

 BloodGrin wrote:
Then go on Ebay, buy more of the old models and do not worry about WYSISYG and use your models with the rules and .....?
Unless for some reason the rules do not excite you and if that is the case I do not know what can help you.

The last time I checked (admittedly a couple years ago) the old 13th Co. boxes were already going for stupid money on ebay. The only really unique figures were the old metal wulfen, but making the other 13th Co. figures requires combining the SW box sets with lots of Chaos Space Marine bits and is, if not stupidly expensive, at least much more expensive than just fielding normal SW marines.

As far as WYSIWYG goes, I generally find it too much of a PITA for both my opponent and myself to remember which figures are actually equipped with which weapons if large numbers of figures are not WYSIWYG. I really have not looked close enough at the rules to determine if I like them or not.

I didn't mean to come across as whining about the release, I'm sure a lot of people will enjoy it and I don't rule out picking it up myself, just saying I would have been more eager to jump on it if they looked more like the old release.

 mdauben wrote:

 BloodGrin wrote:
Then go on Ebay, buy more of the old models and do not worry about WYSISYG and use your models with the rules and .....?
Unless for some reason the rules do not excite you and if that is the case I do not know what can help you.

The last time I checked (admittedly a couple years ago) the old 13th Co. boxes were already going for stupid money on ebay. The only really unique figures were the old metal wulfen, but making the other 13th Co. figures requires combining the SW box sets with lots of Chaos Space Marine bits and is, if not stupidly expensive, at least much more expensive than just fielding normal SW marines.

As far as WYSIWYG goes, I generally find it too much of a PITA for both my opponent and myself to remember which figures are actually equipped with which weapons if large numbers of figures are not WYSIWYG. I really have not looked close enough at the rules to determine if I like them or not.

I didn't mean to come across as whining about the release, I'm sure a lot of people will enjoy it and I don't rule out picking it up myself, just saying I would have been more eager to jump on it if they looked more like the old release.

You can get lucky if you catch them by using "newly added".
Right now the average is roughly 15 per model, though in units you can sometimes get a squad for 70ish which to be honest is not that bad considering these cost $60

Wow. I guess I will have to hold out hope that they just didnt mention it in the White Dwarf and there are new spell cards. The SW have one of the worst psychic decks out there and I was hoping they were going to remedy that. I was also hoping that they would go back and let them have Gate as one of their spells to hop Long Fangs around and make more of the general SW units useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BloodGrin wrote:

 mdauben wrote:

 BloodGrin wrote:
Then go on Ebay, buy more of the old models and do not worry about WYSISYG and use your models with the rules and .....?
Unless for some reason the rules do not excite you and if that is the case I do not know what can help you.

The last time I checked (admittedly a couple years ago) the old 13th Co. boxes were already going for stupid money on ebay. The only really unique figures were the old metal wulfen, but making the other 13th Co. figures requires combining the SW box sets with lots of Chaos Space Marine bits and is, if not stupidly expensive, at least much more expensive than just fielding normal SW marines.

As far as WYSIWYG goes, I generally find it too much of a PITA for both my opponent and myself to remember which figures are actually equipped with which weapons if large numbers of figures are not WYSIWYG. I really have not looked close enough at the rules to determine if I like them or not.

I didn't mean to come across as whining about the release, I'm sure a lot of people will enjoy it and I don't rule out picking it up myself, just saying I would have been more eager to jump on it if they looked more like the old release.

You can get lucky if you catch them by using "newly added".
Right now the average is roughly 15 per model, though in units you can sometimes get a squad for 70ish which to be honest is not that bad considering these cost $60

I bought a set of 5 (brand new without backpacks) for $70 shipped last week after I saw the new models.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
I'm still undecided. But why not make the leader upgrade 8 pts - without the claws - as he could still be upgraded later? GW would not list leader + claws if he had access to it via upgrades like the other Wulfen.

GW aren't exactly brilliant at writing clear rules. My guess is they included the 2 claws automatically with the pack leader simply because the pack leader is a monopose model that comes with them

But the way I read it, he can take other weapons but will simply pay a premium.

Normally, I would totally agree with you. The way most lists work, it would say, in the Wargear, Close Combat Weapon, Claws (Pack Leader Only). Then, in the Options, it would read that they can upgrade to one of the following weapons, and a separate entry will say may upgrade 1 model to pack leader.

But here, the language seems to go the other way.

1. "May upgrade one Wufen to a Wulfen Pack Leader with two Frost Claws ... 20 pts"

2. "Any model may be equipped with one of the following options:" (axe / claws / TH SS).

So if I turn into the rules lawyer, it would seem that the pack leader must have claws which excludes paying for another weapon (because he's only allowed one of the three). But realistically, if someone wanted a pack leader with a TH/SS, I certainly wouldn't make a fuss about it. I mean... whatever

 Talys wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
I'm still undecided. But why not make the leader upgrade 8 pts - without the claws - as he could still be upgraded later? GW would not list leader + claws if he had access to it via upgrades like the other Wulfen.

GW aren't exactly brilliant at writing clear rules. My guess is they included the 2 claws automatically with the pack leader simply because the pack leader is a monopose model that comes with them

But the way I read it, he can take other weapons but will simply pay a premium.

Normally, I would totally agree with you. The way most lists work, it would say, in the Wargear, Close Combat Weapon, Claws (Pack Leader Only). Then, in the Options, it would read that they can upgrade to one of the following weapons, and a separate entry will say may upgrade 1 model to pack leader.

But here, the language seems to go the other way.

1. "May upgrade one Wufen to a Wulfen Pack Leader with two Frost Claws ... 20 pts"

2. "Any model may be equipped with one of the following options:" (axe / claws / TH SS).

So if I turn into the rules lawyer, it would seem that the pack leader must have claws which excludes paying for another weapon (because he's only allowed one of the three). But realistically, if someone wanted a pack leader with a TH/SS, I certainly wouldn't make a fuss about it. I mean... whatever

That is the way it is.
The Pack leader has claws. Period.
He can have the Grenade launcher because that does not have a qualifier.
The weapons though say that they can have ONE of the following. And then the Pack leader comes with the claws thus fulfilling the ONE qualifier.
That it is even in question is odd to me.

@BloodGrin - Right. It seems clear and unambiguous. The only thing strange is that most lists don't work this way. But... shrug... this one does... and the box probably comes with a model that's thus equipped anyhow

Besides, why would anyone pay the extra 20 points and toss the 12 points for the claws anyhow. Just take no pack leader and save the points >.<

 Talys wrote:
Besides, why would anyone pay the extra 20 points and toss the 12 points for the claws anyhow. Just take no pack leader and save the points >.<

Pack Leader has +1 A and +1 Ld.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Besides, why would anyone pay the extra 20 points and toss the 12 points for the claws anyhow. Just take no pack leader and save the points >.<

Pack Leader has +1 A and +1 Ld.

Paying for one more attack is honestly a non issue and the +1 LD is good, but it depends what kind of HQ solutions that there are.
Bounding Leap as read affects the unit, not just models with this rule so a Wolf Priest or Wolf Lord WILL get the same movement.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Besides, why would anyone pay the extra 20 points and toss the 12 points for the claws anyhow. Just take no pack leader and save the points >.<

Pack Leader has +1 A and +1 Ld.

Sure, but ATSKNF makes Ld less important, and it's a 20 point upgrade on a model that only costs 30 points. I mean, you could have 2 wulfen for 60 points instead of 1 pack leader for 50 points (discarding the claws). It just doesn't make any sense to me, but whatever, like I said, I'd be fine with someone who wanted to do that

Edit -- BloodGrin was quicker and yeah, depending on what HQ you match up to the squad, the LD is even less of an issue. My thing was just that paying 70 points total for a pack leader model with pack leader to get a stormshield on him sounds crazy expensive.

Minus the twelve points you would normally pay for the pair of frost claws makes it an eight point upgrade.

 Ghaz wrote:
Minus the twelve points you would normally pay for the pair of frost claws makes it an eight point upgrade.

But that's not what Skink is saying. He's saying, pay the 20 points to get the Pack Leader upgrade, throw away the claws, and pay the 20 points for the stormshield (or 8 points for the axe, I guess...).

So the model costs 30 points + 20 points + 20 points. To get +1 A and +1 LD.

Edit - I don't think anyone is trying to say that you can get a Pack Leader without claws (and a CC weapon) as an 8 point upgrade. I mean, clearly that's not an available option in the rules.

The upgrade is for a "Wulfen Pack Leader armed with two frost claws", not a "Wulfen Pack Leader armed with..." any other weapon.

 Ghaz wrote:
The upgrade is for a "Wulfen Pack Leader armed with two frost claws", not a "Wulfen Pack Leader armed with..." any other weapon.

Right. Skink's point was that you could ALSO take another weapon, since it says "any model may take...". I just disagree, because it that option finishes with "one of the following", and the pack leader already has claws.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
There's lots they can do:

Lightning Masadon Cavalry
Space Viking Long Boats-oh right got those
and um...

OK I'm dry.

I predict a dreadnought with a cannon that shoots out full,grown Fenrisian Wolves and a giant axe taller than ten men.

Of course he himself will be riding a giant robotic wolf who is in turn dropped from a special storm talon formation with no scatter and the ability to assault the turn he arrives.

You know, nothing extreme...

Yes, it does say "... any model may take..." However, you can't break any rules in doing so. 'Must' trumps 'may', and in this case the option for the Wulfen Pack Leader means he must be armed with the two frost claws.

 CT GAMER wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
There's lots they can do:

Lightning Masadon Cavalry
Space Viking Long Boats-oh right got those
and um...

OK I'm dry.

I predict a dreadnought with a cannon that shoots out full,grown Fenrisian Wolves and a giant axe taller than ten men.

Of course he himself will be riding a giant robotic wolf who is in turn dropped from a special storm talon formation with no scatter and the ability to assault the turn he arrives.

You know, nothing extreme...

Not sure.....needs a bit more salt.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
They are workable, I guess, but the fact that they have been granted gear that you would only see on veteran warriors like Wolf Guard really irks me. Not as much as being part of normal Space Wolf formations, but still doesn't sit right.

They were much better when they were marines too far gone to the Curse to even use weapons properly. The Thirteenth Company's great shame being used as a weapon against Chaos, because of their even greater-than normal resistance to the Ruinous Powers.

If I could justify the price, I could at least grow to like the Ice claws, if only because I would immediately paint them as steel claws, kind of like unpowered lightning claws being driven by their enhanced strength.

You could convert up some Wolf Guard and use them as counts-as Wulfen. Just say they are Wolf Guard Assault Veterans and call the 'Curse of the Wulfen' something like 'Inspiring Leadership' instead.

Wolf Lord Balrog wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
They are workable, I guess, but the fact that they have been granted gear that you would only see on veteran warriors like Wolf Guard really irks me. Not as much as being part of normal Space Wolf formations, but still doesn't sit right.

They were much better when they were marines too far gone to the Curse to even use weapons properly. The Thirteenth Company's great shame being used as a weapon against Chaos, because of their even greater-than normal resistance to the Ruinous Powers.

If I could justify the price, I could at least grow to like the Ice claws, if only because I would immediately paint them as steel claws, kind of like unpowered lightning claws being driven by their enhanced strength.

You could convert up some Wolf Guard and use them as counts-as Wulfen. Just say they are Wolf Guard Assault Veterans and call the 'Curse of the Wulfen' something like 'Inspiring Leadership' instead.

Absolutely, and there are some great third party bits out there also for arms and heads and I think even affected but still armored legs.

 Talys wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
I'm still undecided. But why not make the leader upgrade 8 pts - without the claws - as he could still be upgraded later? GW would not list leader + claws if he had access to it via upgrades like the other Wulfen.

GW aren't exactly brilliant at writing clear rules. My guess is they included the 2 claws automatically with the pack leader simply because the pack leader is a monopose model that comes with them

But the way I read it, he can take other weapons but will simply pay a premium.

Normally, I would totally agree with you. The way most lists work, it would say, in the Wargear, Close Combat Weapon, Claws (Pack Leader Only). Then, in the Options, it would read that they can upgrade to one of the following weapons, and a separate entry will say may upgrade 1 model to pack leader.

But here, the language seems to go the other way.

1. "May upgrade one Wufen to a Wulfen Pack Leader with two Frost Claws ... 20 pts"

2. "Any model may be equipped with one of the following options:" (axe / claws / TH SS).

So if I turn into the rules lawyer, it would seem that the pack leader must have claws which excludes paying for another weapon (because he's only allowed one of the three). But realistically, if someone wanted a pack leader with a TH/SS, I certainly wouldn't make a fuss about it. I mean... whatever

Perhaps you're right.

In the end I don't really care which way it works because I don't intend to take Wulfen and if I did and didn't want a model with claws I simply wouldn't take a Pack Leader at all....

I think it just further demonstrates how piss poor GW are at writing rules that you have to read between the lines to figure out how things work (you're reading between the lines that latter option overrides the former option when they could have just told you).

The english language can be ambiguous with multiple interpretations... assuming you don't know how to use it properly, which GW apparently don't (or they don't use a decent editor who should pick up on such things).

But either way, in the context of the Wulfen, I don't really care. The models are hideous and I've never liked the idea of elite packs of Wulfen running around anyway. I've always preferred the idea that the Curse of the Wulfen was, ya know, something to be controlled, something to be hidden. Otherwise an aspirant failing the test of Morkai wouldn't actually be a bad thing, at least not from the Chapter's perspective, it just means another slavering idiot to go pick out of the Asaheim wastelands to turn in to an elite strikeforce which causes the rest of the Company to fall in to the Curse of Wulfen as well.... terrible fluff if you ask me

I almost prefer the idea that Thunderwolves are failed aspirants... if GW didn't make it so other Space Wolves fething ride them in to battle Man GW sucks at writing compelling SW background.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, it does say "... any model may take..." However, you can't break any rules in doing so. 'Must' trumps 'may', and in this case the option for the Wulfen Pack Leader means he must be armed with the two frost claws.

And he is.
He also has another weapon option.

He can take one option in total from the list and also gains Frost Claws automatically when upgraded. The only way this would be the case would be if the Weapon List said 'Any Wulfen may...' or if the Pack Master option said 'Instead of choosing one of the above options, one Wulfen may be upgraded to a Wulfen Pack Master...', though that would also disallow him from taking the grenade launcher.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, it does say "... any model may take..." However, you can't break any rules in doing so. 'Must' trumps 'may', and in this case the option for the Wulfen Pack Leader means he must be armed with the two frost claws.

And he is.
He also has another weapon option.

He can take one option in total from the list and also gains Frost Claws automatically when upgraded. The only way this would be the case would be if the Weapon List said 'Any Wulfen may...' or if the Pack Master option said 'Instead of choosing one of the above options, one Wulfen may be upgraded to a Wulfen Pack Master...', though that would also disallow him from taking the grenade launcher.

No it does not affect the grenade launcher at all because it is not among the list.
Read it again, it is very clear.
Any model may take ONE weapon from this list. The list has three things, you get to choose. STOP.
The pack leader does not get to choose, his ONE weapon is assigned, hard coded. Just like a set Warlord trait or just like a set psychic ability. He has claws.

And actually the verbage makes it even more clear.
It says "Any model may be equippped with one of the three." Not may take one of the three . That says, If model does not have one of these three options ( Check to see if models have one of three options, if they do, then STOP if they do not then go to step 2) Equip one of the three options.

With the Pack Leader when it checks it says "hey, he has the claws" so again he does not get to choose.

I predict a dreadnought with a cannon that shoots out full,grown Fenrisian Wolves

Sign me up. I'll take two.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, it does say "... any model may take..." However, you can't break any rules in doing so. 'Must' trumps 'may', and in this case the option for the Wulfen Pack Leader means he must be armed with the two frost claws.

And he is.
He also has another weapon option.

He can take one option in total from the list and also gains Frost Claws automatically when upgraded. The only way this would be the case would be if the Weapon List said 'Any Wulfen may...' or if the Pack Master option said 'Instead of choosing one of the above options, one Wulfen may be upgraded to a Wulfen Pack Master...', though that would also disallow him from taking the grenade launcher.

Then he's no longer a 'Wulfen Pack Leader armed with two frost claws'. He's a 'Wulfen Pack Leader armed with two frost claws and...'

The grenade launcher thing was to do with the wording that would stop the weapons being an option.

He has one hard-coded weapon. So what? It doesn't stop him from taking one of the options from the list because ANY models can take those. Already having claws doesn't stop him from taking ONE option as he hasn't taken an option from the list yet. Even if his weapon is on the list as an option he did not take it from that list, he got it from a separate option entirely.

He's already not a Wulfen Pack Leader aremed with two frost claws', he's a 'Wulfen Pack Leader armed with two frost claws and a close combat weapon'.
Or as people are saying he can take the launcher and not the weapons from the list (for some reason...), he's be a 'Wulfen Pack Leader armed with two frost claws, a close combat weapon and a stormfrag auto-launcher'.

Yes, it does prevent him from taking other weapons. Can you find an 'and' in the option that upgrades him to a Wulfen Pack Leader?