Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Another alternative I think would be to have a more alien-looking skin (deep purple or darker red perhaps - which might then look good with a burnished gold or dark metal armour)
Here are Demon models, that are included in the Space Crusade Board Game (PG13 and 18+ will have the same models).
In next few days we will reveal PG13+ miniatures as well. Thanks
Thanks
Can you please clarify this?
Are you armouring up the Crusaders 2m exhaust ports with the stomach plates etc or are you filing the nips off the succubi?
If not the former, would you consider adding the missing armour pieces?
Yes, as mentioned in my previous posts, we had a tons of emails asking to make this game accessible for kids as well, So version PG13+ is the one that will have more armour plates (Heroes) and eventually same will go for every add-on model.
One more questions:
What Dakkadakkars think about his miniature , a future add-on for the SC game (or may be included in the main box as a free gift)
And Crusaders Hero reinforcement concepts
At the risk of Quote'ception, thanks for the response.
I'll definitely be picking up some properly armoured ladies for use in place of other armoured ladies whose models predate my own involvement in the game for which they are designed.
Much like the original designers of the sisters of battle, I'm less concerned that the armour makes perfect sense as space future armour and more concerned that its quite obvious that they are women.
The armour does have to be there for them to be considered armoured females however, and I'm looking forward to seeing these realised.
ergotoxin wrote: This is like, really bad. I was planning to spend some more money on Warzone, but now I have to reconsider the purchase. Don't think I want to support a company that profits on sexism and alienates the female audience from the hobby. Not to mention how unoriginal and cheap the whole concept is.
Me too! I've been looking into WZR for a while now, but hearing about the aVP shenanigans and then seeing this, I don't really think I want to give them any money!!
ergotoxin wrote: This is like, really bad. I was planning to spend some more money on Warzone, but now I have to reconsider the purchase. Don't think I want to support a company that profits on sexism and alienates the female audience from the hobby. Not to mention how unoriginal and cheap the whole concept is.
Me too! I've been looking into WZR for a while now, but hearing about the aVP shenanigans and then seeing this, I don't really think I want to give them any money!!
Shenanigans are putting it mildly. Without going too far off topic it's been a fething nightmare, and a lot of folks are still waiting for their pledge rewards. A fair few folks dropped a good bit of money on that- I think some of them were in the 100s of pounds region. I've got most of my rewards, but still waiting on youngblood preds, obj markers and face huggers.
ANYWAYS- the models for Prodos' Space Crusade PG are sooo much better than the 18+ lol. With the exception of size minus 10 waistlines that is.
ArbitorIan wrote: Me too! I've been looking into WZR for a while now, but hearing about the aVP shenanigans and then seeing this, I don't really think I want to give them any money!!
Same here.
I saw Prodos, thought I might see something to use with the small amount of WZR I have, and got shown this.
I'll see how they look after this has settled down.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/10 13:07:35
Me too! I've been looking into WZR for a while now, but hearing about the aVP shenanigans and then seeing this, I don't really think I want to give them any money!!
Thats kinda dumb. Its similar to not going to china on vacation cause they used slave labor to build their wall. If you like the war zone stuff....and think its worth buying ..then get it . If you don't like the crusader stuff..then don't buy it.
I do not understand the outrage.
Sideshow statues made this
Some people didn't like it, but no one boycotted the company..cause they also made this
Raging heroes ran a 800000k Kickstarter. People gave them grief about crappy communication but...it doesn't seem like anyone REALLY went off on them for the concepts.
Kingdom Death is PRAISED for it execution of some...damn near naked ladies. there IS a sold out mini of a girl with a bikini made of TONGUES....
I DO understand why some people don't like them. Sure...you don't like pin-uppy unrealistic stuff. (I'm ignoring the obvious this is space fantasy argument there). The hawkeye initiative is very clever and totally makes sense.
I DON'T understand the (I'll be honest..this is just how it feels and I might be misreading tone on the internet) frothing hatred people have for these miniatures. Its like prodoss went out and took pictures of people mothers and then made these miniatures off of them. these are not real people...no one is being hurt.
Maybe its cause I'm older and just am out of touch, or...I really like gil elvgren and olivia so i just don't care as much or...you know, I'm a sociopath...or something. But why are you all (most not everyone) so angry about this?
Also..I'm not trying to troll or be internet obnoxious...I'm just really curious....cause to me...this seems like a non issue
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/10 11:37:49
People are wary of prodos due to AVP kS shenanigans i.e: some rewards have still not been delivered though retail have been getting their goods.
For me I don't hate Prodos but take issue with the poor sculpting of the Crusaders especially when compared with their demons (which actually look half decent).
RH and KD are superior sculpts. And reflect their own internal fluff. I have no use or desire for either companies product but they are consistent in their art direction.
Prodos have deliberately gone for a sexy look only to ensure exposure and hopefully for them revenue. The Space crusaders are not even consistent with their own approach. Especially given that they are now considering a PG-13 version.
Even the PG-13 version of the Crusaders with the armoured torsos are poorly designed. Given that they can produce decent work with Warzone I am at a loss as to what response they really expected when garage casters are producing superior work.
Finally cheesecake doesnt have to be as grotesque as Prodos seem to think the consumer wants.
Maybe its cause I'm older and just am out of touch, or...I really like gil elvgren and olivia so i just don't care as much or...you know, I'm a sociopath...or something. But why are you all (most not everyone) so angry about this?
I'm not angry. I was disappointed there but now I'm relieved that we're getting fully armoured versions of the crusaders.
From what I've read, people's resistance to this stems from:
1: Actually disliking the minis- subjective
2: Liking the mini's but being upset at the missed opportunity. Sisters players looking for good proxies go in here, but Prodos said they'll bring out armoured versions so this is a bit of a non issue unless you take issue with their poses, which aren't gritty combat stances- in which case that's number 1.
3: Virtue Signalling- being seen to reject what are admittedly highly sexualised toy soldiers for one of the following causes:
_3a: Moral outrage- sexuality is bad.
_3b: Social Justice- these women are sexy which reduces women to objects, women should only be sexy when they so choose and for reasons which I find valid.
_3c: Space marines are Serious Business- this reinforces the idea that wargamers are just lonely losers and now nobody will take my hobby of collecting and playing with toy space soldiers seriously.
4: Not erotic enough. Why stop at bare midriffs and thighs?
5: The armour is not logical. Rather than a resistance to the form, its a resistance to the lack of function. Whether the glaring vulnerabilities which could be waved away in fantasy setting's chain mail bikini or spine crushing weight the lack of support between the boots and chestplate would place on the girls shoulders, the internal inconsistency of power armoured lingerie is too much to suspend disbelief. This ties in with 2 and hopefully will be rectified.
6: Fans of Prodos' other projects are either aggrieved that effort is going into this with promises unfulfilled elsewhere or advising others to be wary of said unfulfilled promises
Note that none of these grievances are entirely without merit. None of them are a valid reason for this product not to exist or be successful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/10 12:34:00
I can get behind the "Prodos has screwed us on this other thing(AVP) so [Radio Edit} them on this project. Its just not many people seem to mention that angle very much.
And yeah...if you don't like the mini..say so.
"I think the wulfen look weird but thats just me"
I'm just sorta take a back at the vitriol.
"These aren't cheese cake these are rancid cottage cheese"
"I hope GW sues them and they go out of business cause they deserve it"
"I was gonna buy something from them but now I wont cause I'm so offended"
All actual quotes.....(paraphrased)
etc etc
But thank you for responding respectfully and not calling me a terrible name or inferring I'm a loser 15 year old with 0 dating prospects.
Without a major corporation/IP to deal with, I doubt there will be delays in delivery with this product.
Not really my cup of tea, but the resins look much better than the computer painted models. The fully armored models seem fairly generic to me, but folks seem to like em.
rayphoton wrote: Thats kinda dumb. Its similar to not going to china on vacation cause they used slave labor to build their wall. If you like the war zone stuff....and think its worth buying ..then get it . If you don't like the crusader stuff..then don't buy it.
No, it's similar to not liking the business practices of a company, and therefore choosing not to use the company. Like avoiding Nestle, or Amazon, or Uber, because you disagree with the company. Plenty of people do it all the time.
Also..I'm not trying to troll or be internet obnoxious...I'm just really curious....cause to me...this seems like a non issue
Yeah, I find it interesting too. There are a fair amount of female models out there, made to varying different levels of sexualisation. I think the point at which people dislike this is actually much more connected to the perceived intent of the designers (and thus the attitude of the company) than what clothing is on the models.
I don't think Raging Heroes made a line of badass punk 'Jailbirds' influenced by Tank Girl and Vasquez because they REALLY wanted to see boobs. The models are sexualised, but also campy, and play on a trope that already exists. In short, I don't think an outsider seeing someone play with a toy soldier army of Kurganovas or Jailbirds or Sisters of Battle would think of them as any more stupid than Space Marines are - both gendered, some sexualised to a degree, but both references to real-world things. My punk commando girls fight your warrior monk guys.
But the Prodos models don't look like they're sculpted for kitsch value. or with any art or reference in mind. They look like the design process went 'HURRR... BEWBS'. The sole purpose of these models is boobs. That's what they're for. Boobs. The whole range looks like it was conceived by a thirteen year old boy, and I think that's what an outsider to the hobby would think about grown adult humans playing with THAT army.
Let's be clear that this isn't about 'models can't be sexy' - Jailbirds are still 'sexy' models. It has nothing to do with prudishness or how much flesh is on show. Make naked models if it works in the background. Juan Diaz' Daemonettes were fetching amazing models, and made sense the BG. The Dark Eldar range has a brilliant balance of 'slightly S&M stuff and lithe, sexy female forms without being stupid. This doesn't.
We could just say 'Well, don't buy them then' but that misses the point. The models put out by the TTG industry affect how people see the TTG industry and that, in turn, affects how people see us gamers. I'm not a thirteen year old boy who goes 'HURR...BEWBS'. I don't want people seeing these and assuming that I am. Further, I don't want people seeing these, and assuming that ALL gamers are just thirteen year old boys going 'HURR...BEWBS'. Because then less people will get involved. And that's bad for gaming.
It's a vague and messy collection of thoughts that could probably do with some editing, but I think that's why the response is anger rather than just 'meh, I won't buy those'.
Various edits for clarity....
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/10 13:22:48
Meh.
You know what's the issue with those minis ? They're wearing too much. I don't mind a game full of bikini babes at all, but why go half-way ?
"Space Babes in Bikinis with Guns!". Now that's a game that'll have my attention.
As they are currently, the "armor" makes no sense at all, it doesn't provide protection, nor does it even fit...
So you go full bikini babes OR you go power-armored nuns, but you don't go for a lame half-hearted attempt at both.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/10 13:40:05
rayphoton wrote: Thats kinda dumb. Its similar to not going to china on vacation cause they used slave labor to build their wall. If you like the war zone stuff....and think its worth buying ..then get it . If you don't like the crusader stuff..then don't buy it.
No, it's similar to not liking the business practices of a company, and therefore choosing not to use the company. Like avoiding Nestle, or Amazon, or Uber, because you disagree with the company. Plenty of people do it all the time.
Also..I'm not trying to troll or be internet obnoxious...I'm just really curious....cause to me...this seems like a non issue
Yeah, I find it interesting too. There are a fair amount of female models out there, made to varying different levels of sexualisation. I think the point at which people dislike this is actually much more connected to the perceived intent of the designers (and thus the attitude of the company) than what clothing is on the models.
I don't think Raging Heroes made a line of badass punk 'Jailbirds' influenced by Tank Girl and Vasquez because they REALLY wanted to see boobs. The models are sexualised, but also campy, and play on a trope that already exists. In short, I don't think an outsider seeing someone play with a toy soldier army of Kurganovas or Jailbirds or Sisters of Battle would think of them as any more stupid than Space Marines are - both gendered, some sexualised to a degree, but both references to real-world things. My punk commando girls fight your warrior monk guys.
But the Prodos models don't look like they're sculpted for kitsch value. or with any art or reference in mind. They look like the design process went 'HURRR... BEWBS'. The sole purpose of these models is boobs. That's what they're for. Boobs. The whole range looks like it was conceived by a thirteen year old boy, and I think that's what an outsider to the hobby would think about grown adult humans playing with THAT army.
Let's be clear that this isn't about 'models can't be sexy' - Jailbirds are still 'sexy' models. It has nothing to do with prudishness or how much flesh is on show. Make naked models if it works in the background. Juan Diaz' Daemonettes were fetching amazing models, and made sense the BG. The Dark Eldar range has a brilliant balance of 'slightly S&M stuff and lithe, sexy female forms without being stupid. This doesn't.
We could just say 'Well, don't buy them then' but that misses the point. The models put out by the TTG industry affect how people see the TTG industry and that, in turn, affects how people see us gamers. I'm not a thirteen year old boy who goes 'HURR...BEWBS'. I don't want people seeing these and assuming that I am. Further, I don't want people seeing these, and assuming that ALL gamers are just thirteen year old boys going 'HURR...BEWBS'. Because then less people will get involved. And that's bad for gaming.
It's a vague and messy collection of thoughts that could probably do with some editing, but I think that's why the response is anger rather than just 'meh, I won't buy those'.
Various edits for clarity....
Thanks for your comments, please bear in mind, as explained in our previous posts SC (18+ Miniatures) style is based more on manga/ heroic '90/ fantasy Conan - as for reference... in general '90 comic book style?
Frankly, Prodos is manufacturing a lot miniatures for other companies and to be hones, some of them are over the top... however I don't see much storm about them, thus, I thing the issue is somewhere else.
As with TGG or KD or RK miniatures all of the appealing to different customers, and sell very well.
For Prodos having a different style of miniatures is important, it's same as car companies have in their range a Sport car, family and a Van... something for a different customer, it only shows that we are not one trick pony in case of design (32mm true scale minis).
Also, let me get that clear in my head : Juan Diaz' Daemonettes is not sexism, labelling nor it should offend anyone because it's justified by the fluff (sculpted with reference in mind)?
Maybe I am missing the point but ,really don't think, as a parent, I would allow my 13y old son paint the boobz just because its OK with fluff, no, this product is for 16+ same as SC, and to be clear, I don't see personally any issues with them, it's just product for older audience.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/10 13:52:32
Me too! I've been looking into WZR for a while now, but hearing about the aVP shenanigans and then seeing this, I don't really think I want to give them any money!!
Thats kinda dumb. Its similar to not going to china on vacation cause they used slave labor to build their wall. If you like the war zone stuff....and think its worth buying ..then get it . If you don't like the crusader stuff..then don't buy it.
I do not understand the outrage.
Spoiler:
Sideshow statues made this
Some people didn't like it, but no one boycotted the company..cause they also made this
Raging heroes ran a 800000k Kickstarter. People gave them grief about crappy communication but...it doesn't seem like anyone REALLY went off on them for the concepts.
Kingdom Death is PRAISED for it execution of some...damn near naked ladies. there IS a sold out mini of a girl with a bikini made of TONGUES....
I DO understand why some people don't like them. Sure...you don't like pin-uppy unrealistic stuff. (I'm ignoring the obvious this is space fantasy argument there). The hawkeye initiative is very clever and totally makes sense.
I DON'T understand the (I'll be honest..this is just how it feels and I might be misreading tone on the internet) frothing hatred people have for these miniatures. Its like prodoss went out and took pictures of people mothers and then made these miniatures off of them. these are not real people...no one is being hurt.
Maybe its cause I'm older and just am out of touch, or...I really like gil elvgren and olivia so i just don't care as much or...you know, I'm a sociopath...or something. But why are you all (most not everyone) so angry about this?
Also..I'm not trying to troll or be internet obnoxious...I'm just really curious....cause to me...this seems like a non issue
Those are different markets. Not all people who buy dolls buy sex dolls, obviously. Not all people who buy statues buy sexualized statues. The models as presented will have a fairly sizable number of people interested, I believe; personally, I don't care for nudity for the sake of nudity but I get that "cheesecake" is a thing for some people.
All of that said, I often game around small children and it's not my place to expose them to nudity or sex, I also object to them taking part in simulated violence but not being their parent, it's not my call. What is my call is whether I bring models that exude a certain esthetic, theme, whatever that I, myself, would not want my child exposed to by a stranger.
Other than that, the models are a bit puerile in design. If you're going to sculpt semi-nudes, you can at least recognize that a) gravity exists and b) not all breasts are the same size and/or shape. Sure, you can apply handwavium all you like and say, "well it's sci-fi" but there's a reason people laugh at GW's heroic models and their guerrilla hands and disproportionate anatomy.
I also agree with HudsonD to a certain extent that campy sexualization is a bit different than "bewbs for the bewb god." And there might actually be a market for a late 60's movie-esque representation of "beach, blanket, bombs!" Bikini girls with bolters (channeling the Cramps here [old band]....gee I'm old) or whatever vs just enough armor for potential customers to draw the obvious conclusion that these models are counts-as GW models (not necessarily a bad thing). Either they stand as counts-as models or they stand on their own, no need for 1/2 measures unless you realize that there simply isn't enough technical skill used in the creation of the models for them to stand on their own merit.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Maybe its cause I'm older and just am out of touch, or...I really like gil elvgren and olivia so i just don't care as much or...you know, I'm a sociopath...or something. But why are you all (most not everyone) so angry about this?
I'm not angry. I was disappointed there but now I'm relieved that we're getting fully armoured versions of the crusaders.
From what I've read, people's resistance to this stems from:
1: Actually disliking the minis- subjective
2: Liking the mini's but being upset at the missed opportunity. Sisters players looking for good proxies go in here, but Prodos said they'll bring out armoured versions so this is a bit of a non issue unless you take issue with their poses, which aren't gritty combat stances- in which case that's number 1.
3: Virtue Signalling- being seen to reject what are admittedly highly sexualised toy soldiers for one of the following causes:
_3a: Moral outrage- sexuality is bad.
_3b: Social Justice- these women are sexy which reduces women to objects, women should only be sexy when they so choose and for reasons which I find valid.
_3c: Space marines are Serious Business- this reinforces the idea that wargamers are just lonely losers and now nobody will take my hobby of collecting and playing with toy space soldiers seriously.
4: Not erotic enough. Why stop at bare midriffs and thighs?
5: The armour is not logical. Rather than a resistance to the form, its a resistance to the lack of function. Whether the glaring vulnerabilities which could be waved away in fantasy setting's chain mail bikini or spine crushing weight the lack of support between the boots and chestplate would place on the girls shoulders, the internal inconsistency of power armoured lingerie is too much to suspend disbelief. This ties in with 2 and hopefully will be rectified.
6: Fans of Prodos' other projects are either aggrieved that effort is going into this with promises unfulfilled elsewhere or advising others to be wary of said unfulfilled promises
Note that none of these grievances are entirely without merit. None of them are a valid reason for this product not to exist or be successful.
I'm still waiting on some of my AVP items (Youngbloods, Invisible predators, facehuggers, etc.), and I respect the grievances of those who also participated in the KS.
But I also want to say that the AVP miniatures that I have received so far were top quality. Extremely well done, to a standard I'm not sure any other company could pull off. The same goes for the WarZone miniatures I've purchased at retail. When Prodos get their act together, they do what they do very well. If they follow through and deliver my last AVP items, I'm willing to bury the hatchet.
. . . IN THEIR COMPANY'S HEART!!! HA HAHAHAHAHAH!
Ok, seriously, the quality of the work is outstanding. And despite waiting over 2 years for my AVP stuff, that's worth something.
That said, this new Space Crusade line looks pretty terrible to me. Keep in mind that I am NOT the intended market, as cheesecake generally annoys or disturbs me, but that aside (if it's possible to set that aside), the designs here just don't seem to be executed on the same level as their excellent WarZone and AVP work. I don't mind Prodos having another line that doesn't cater to my taste or politics or whatever, but I am a little surprised to see it designed at what looks like a lower standard. I guess it's no bother to me as long as they keep making AVP and WarZone as well as they do.
Since I like Prodos's other work, I just hope that whatever other new initiatives lie in store, some of them will be more to my taste. And whoever has been doing your art design and computer modeling for AVP and WarZone, Jarek, don't let them get away.
Don't take my disinterest in SC too hard. Here's a hearty pat on the back for your Cybertronic troopers. I already loved the chasseurs, armoured and otherwise, and just spotted the new Machinators.
Cholerny! Teraz to, co mówię!
Piękny!
Dakkadakka: Bringing wargamers together, one smile at a time.™
Ok, seriously, the quality of the work is outstanding. And despite waiting over 2 years for my AVP stuff, that's worth something.
That said, this new Space Crusade line looks pretty terrible to me. Keep in mind that I am NOT the intended market, as cheesecake generally annoys or disturbs me, but that aside (if it's possible to set that aside), the designs here just don't seem to be executed on the same level as their excellent WarZone and AVP work. I don't mind Prodos having another line that doesn't cater to my taste or politics or whatever, but I am a little surprised to see it designed at what looks like a lower standard. I guess it's no bother to me as long as they keep making AVP and WarZone as well as they do.
Agree completely , the quality of the AvP miniatures for one is absolutely stupendous. Honestly, despite everything that has gone on with the late KS, if you view those miniatures in isolation then they are stunning - I can't really think of what else they could do to make them better in my book, and that's speaking as someone as a massive Aliens and Predator fan.
So, Prodos are certainly capable of producing some cracking stuff - those terminator things above look pretty neat also.
People complaining they want their plastic toys to look like real women...
While real women are busy paying to have plastic surgery to look like toy figures.
The world is a funny place.
Personally I dislike the "cheesecake" figures. But I expect they will sell because single men buy funny things.
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Wulfmar wrote: People complaining they want their plastic toys to look like real women...
While real women are busy paying to have plastic surgery to look like toy figures.
The world is a funny place.
Personally I dislike the "cheesecake" figures. But I expect they will sell because single men buy funny things.
Married men do as well. As do women. As a matter of fact, if you judge by her art prints my wife appreciates the female form more than I do!
Wish mine did, she's more excited by balls of yarn and knitting patterns - which aren't anywhere near as arousing as you might think.
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Apart from the above-it-all self righteousness, maybe. Angel's kind of sniffy dismissal of the likes and dislikes of the intended market is pretty much why this rubbish is getting hauled over the coals.
Byte wrote: I like the Bikini armor. I hope they stick with it.
Good news, then, because that still appears to be the plan. Only now they'll also be making an alternate up-armored version in addition to the bikini marines.
Apart from the above-it-all self righteousness, maybe. Angel's kind of sniffy dismissal of the likes and dislikes of the intended market is pretty much why this rubbish is getting hauled over the coals.
I didn't mean to be dismissive. I did say that none of the objections were without merit. I do understand people not liking these, they are very marmite.
I was trying to be comprehensive, not know-it-all or above-it-all. I maintain that you could slot any of the posts following mine into one of those categories.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/11 10:29:39
Married men do as well. As do women. As a matter of fact, if you judge by her art prints my wife appreciates the female form more than I do!
I think many people saying the boob minis are mainly for young men would be very surprised to see who is actually buying them, its definately not just horny young teens...
Legion: Dark Angels 
6000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 
4000 pts - 
1000 pts - 
1000 pts 
And there might actually be a market for a late 60's movie-esque representation of "beach, blanket, bombs!" Bikini girls with bolters (channeling the Cramps here [old band]....gee I'm old) or whatever vs just enough armor for potential customers to draw the obvious conclusion that these models are counts-as 
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / 
Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / 
Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / 
Black Death 1500pts
(more)
