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fryfryfry wrote:
I assume those with the most gripes play 1850 and only 1850 lists? So tourney folk. If so, sorry.

None of the new Formation Detachments appear to cater to that crowd even though some are quite doable. It's obvious the intent is for bigger and bigger games (meaning the purchase of more and more models).

Its gotta be, cuz even at 2K this thing isn't exactly friendly.

These Ork formations seem to be more about making you buy units that you normally don't have, as opposed to actually making the units useful...which seems silly, since rules play a big role in sales.

I don't get GW's philosophy when it comes to Orks.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Am i the only one expecting a ork codex update "soon" making this supplement suddenly really interesting.

Yes you are.

OK guys, I'm missing something.

Why can't you take Ghaz as a lord of war from a CAD and attach him to a unit in the orcurion?

The orcurion says that if the detatchment "contains" your warlord he can call waaaaghs every turn. Does joining a unit in a detachment mean the detatchment "contains" the warlord? If so you don't need the council.

Nope that does not work. Ghaz has to be part of / be bought in the detachment.

How do you know? IC's can normally join any unit.

This Ghaz/Crapcurion is quite interesting if you really look at it for what it is.

Just look at a CAD this will get you
2HQ,3Elite,3Fast,3 Heavy,1Low
on top of that you can have formations.

Not lets look at the update. And ignore all the formations since they are filled with things that don't get any benefit from the bonuses of the detachment or are crap.
This detachment doesnt force you into combining traditional units like the SM or Necron one does.
Each unit entry in the ork codex of the Elite, Fast, Heavy and LoW slot + grots can be taken separately as an aux slot as long as you take a really expensive formation. And you can only take 1 HQ on top of your warlord outside formations

So all this thing really does is allows you to add up all the other slots (3+3+3+1 = 10 ) and give you a bonus in trade of including one of the 2 large formations.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:
How do you know? IC's can normally join any unit.

They can and it makes you part of a unit, but a joining a unit does not make you part of a detachment. If you want to fight this out open up a you make da call I am sure you will be able to have a 20 page long interesting discussion there.

You don't have to be "part of" the detachment...only "contained" by it.

Yea, I'm being a dick, but if it flies...

rules regarding formations and ICs not bought within the formation do not share. Ghaz can still be brought in a CAD and be your warlord, but since he was not purchased within the formations he doesnt qualify for the "if this detachment contains your warlord...." requirement so he cant perma-waaagh or waaagh first turn. Formations, CADs, and allied detachments are completely separate entities as far as rules are concerned.

Theres a lot of shenanigans people would pull off if what youre suggesting was legal.

I decided to take up the challenge and see what I could make out of this....

Waaagh-Band! - 1375pts

Mek - 15pts
Warboss, MA, DLS - 125pts
MegaNobz, Battlewagon, Reinforced Ram, Big Shoota - 240pts
6x Trukk Boyz, Eavy Armour, Nob, Big Choppa, Trukk Reinforced Ram - 960pts
Gretchin - 35pts

CAD - 475pts

Painboy - 50pts
Big Mek - MA, KFF, Grot Oiler - 150pts
2x Gretchin - 70pts
Ghazgkhull Thraka - 225pts

Total 1850pts

Ghaz, Painboy, Mek, Big Mek, Warboss and MANZ all in the Battlewagon together.
Giving a Fearless, Waaagh every turn, Trukk Rush list.
Ghaz will now have a 2++ every turn, from turn 1, with a 5+ FNP, and plenty of characters to soak up challenges with a +1 on their WS thanks to DLS. The BW will enjoy the 5++, and the unit will also have 2+, 5++ and 5+ FNP, with MANZ who can run and charge every turn.

This turn Ghaz into an absolute monster, with Eternal warrior, stick him out front to soak up everything upto, and including, D weapons. Even if Ghaz gets hit in the face with a D deathblow, he will only take 1 wound thanks to eternal warrior, and if the painboy is still allive, he'll get 5+ FNP.
Plus all troops have Obj Sec thanks to the CAD.

Not the worst thing to happen.

Unless of course the thing about CAD Ghaz not being a part of the Waaagh-Band! Then it's garbage. Ho Hum.
Yep, you are right, there's no getting around it. You need Ghaz to be Warlord of the Detachment, and he can't be if he's warlord of the CAD. But luckily, not everyone at my FLGS will know that, might be able to TFG (for cheating and general dickery) with Orks!!!

 r_squared wrote:
I decided to take up the challenge and see what I could make out of this....

Waaagh-Band! - 1375pts

Mek - 15pts
Warboss, MA, DLS - 125pts
MegaNobz, Battlewagon, Reinforced Ram, Big Shoota - 240pts
6x Trukk Boyz, Eavy Armour, Nob, Big Choppa, Trukk Reinforced Ram - 960pts
Gretchin - 35pts

CAD - 475pts

Painboy - 50pts
Big Mek - MA, KFF, Grot Oiler - 150pts
2x Gretchin - 70pts
Ghazgkhull Thraka - 225pts

Total 1850pts

Ghaz, Painboy, Mek, Big Mek, Warboss and MANZ all in the Battlewagon together.
Giving a Fearless, Waaagh every turn, Trukk Rush list.
Ghaz will now have a 2++ every turn, from turn 1, with a 5+ FNP, and plenty of characters to soak up challenges with a +1 on their WS thanks to DLS. The BW will enjoy the 5++, and the unit will also have 2+, 5++ and 5+ FNP, with MANZ who can run and charge every turn.

This turn Ghaz into an absolute monster, with Eternal warrior, stick him out front to soak up everything upto, and including, D weapons. Even if Ghaz gets hit in the face with a D deathblow, he will only take 1 wound thanks to eternal warrior, and if the painboy is still allive, he'll get 5+ FNP.
Plus all troops have Obj Sec thanks to the CAD.

Not the worst thing to happen.

Unless of course the thing about CAD Ghaz not being a part of the Waaagh-Band! Then it's garbage. Ho Hum.

Yeah, it's garbage. Ghaz needs to be part of the detachment to Waaagh! every turn.

Why couldn't Ghaz just be taken in place of the Warlord in a Warband/Kill Mob? That, that would have been OK. I could work with that.

This is copied from my epub/tablet version.

forces of da great waaagh!


This book contains special rules, Warlord Traits, relics, a Detachment and Formations, Altar of War missions and Tactical Objectives that reflect the fighting style of Waaagh! Ghazghkull. You can add the Detachment and Formations from this section to an existing army, or use them to field an army from Waaagh! Ghazghkull itself.


Waaagh! Ghazghkull Special Rules

If you use the Formations or the Great Waaagh!-band Detachment in this book, the following supplemental special rules apply to all of the units they contain.
Biggest an’ da Best
As Ghazghkull repeatedly proved during his meteoric rise to become the deadliest Ork in the galaxy, not only does it help to regularly remind everyone who the biggest, meanest and ’ardest of them all is, but giving an enemy champion a good kicking serves as a great warm-up for the brawls to come.
This special rule only applies to a Warlord chosen as part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book. If your Warlord has this special rule, he must always issue and accept a challenge whenever possible. If you have more than one model in a combat with a special rule to this effect, you can choose which model issues or accepts the challenge. If a Warlord with this special rule kills an enemy character in a challenge, he can re-roll all failed To Wound rolls in close combat for the rest of the game.
Da Boss iz Watchin’
The Orks of Waaagh! Ghazghkull are known for their unusual levels of discipline, instilled if not by Ghazghkull himself, then by his subordinates. These canny leaders have been subjected to, or have witnessed, enough of the Big Boss’ clobberings to know better than to let the ladz get too carried away, and will crack heads even harder to keep them in line.
Units with the Mob Rule special rule (see Codex: Orks) that include at least one model from this Detachment or Formation gain a +2 modifier to any rolls on the Mob Rule table. However, should any of these units suffer hits from the Breaking Heads or Squabble results on the Mob Rule table, they will suffer D3+3 Strength 4 AP- hits instead of D6 Strength 4 AP- hits.

Orkimedes’ Kustom Gubbinz
Any units from a Detachment or Formation presented in this book that can select Gifts of Gork and Mork can select an item from Orkimedes’ Kustom Gubbinz, presented opposite, at the points costs shown, in addition to the Gifts of Gork and Mork from Codex: Orks.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
This part is also copied

The Forces of Waaagh! Ghazghkull




Choosing An Army
When choosing an army to play a game of Warhammer 40,000, there are two main ways of organising your collection. These are the Unbound method, which means taking whichever units you like, and the Battle-forged method, which is more rigid but has extra benefits. Both are described fully in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
If you are using the Unbound method, simply use the datasheets that correspond to the models in your collection. If you are using the Battle-forged method, you will instead need to organise the Ork models in your collection into Detachments. This is a fun process in its own right. The most common of these are the Combined Arms and Allied Detachments. Note that you can also include any of the Formations presented in this section as part of a Battle-forged army.




The Great Waaagh!-band Detachment you can see below can be included in any Ork Battle-forged army. Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles. However, it still has compulsory and optional elements, as well as Restrictions and Command Benefits, just like any other Detachment.
Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Great Waaagh!-band Detachment are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. If your Warlord is part of a Formation or an Army List Entry that makes up part of a Great Waaagh!-band Detachment, that entire Detachment is your Primary Detachment.




Restrictions:
This Detachment must include at least one Core choice. For each Core choice you must include between 1 and 10 Auxiliary choices (in any combination) and up to one Command choice. Only the datasheets listed here may be included in this Detachment. The Great Waaagh!-band is a Ghazghkull Detachment as described on page 52.
Command Benefits:
Biggest an’ da Best (pg 52), Da Boss iz Watchin’ (pg 52).
Da Big Boss: If this Detachment is chosen as your Primary Detachment, you can choose to re-roll the result on the Warlord Traits table.
Da Great Waaagh!: If this Detachment contains your Warlord and he has the Waaagh! special rule, he can call a Waaagh! each and every turn, including the first turn.
Da Green Horde: Every unit with 10 or more models in this Detachment gains the Hammer of Wrath special rule in any Assault phase in which it successfully charges an enemy unit. Note that it does not matter if the unit’s size is reduced below 10 models during its charge (as a result of Overwatch, Dangerous Terrain tests, etc.) so long as it can still successfully make the charge.




Core1+




Auxiliary1-10 per Core




Command0-1 per Core




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So taking Ghaz from a CAD does not make him getting to Waaagh every turn. The warlord must be chosen from the Waaagh Ghazkull supplement

 r_squared wrote:
Plus all troops have Obj Sec thanks to the CAD.

yeah that does not work only the troops in the cad are objective secured.

 JimOnMars wrote:
You don't have to be "part of" the detachment...only "contained" by it.

Yea, I'm being a dick, but if it flies...

Sure he can be part of he unit but never the detachment. So ghaz would never gain detachments rules beyond the detachment you buy him from. He can call a waaggh but only once as the warlord. Hence why the rule said a warlord chosen from this detachment making it fairly clear where the warlord must come from.

I think what we're missing here is it SHOULD be expensive if you want to take Ghazghkull. He doesn't just waaagh around with any band of Orks.

Think Armageddon size fights not 1850-point skirmishes.

 Frozocrone wrote:


Why couldn't Ghaz just be taken in place of the Warlord in a Warband/Kill Mob? That, that would have been OK. I could work with that.

This would have fixed all the problems. Pls GW write an errata to allow this.

The only rule that spills between formation and cad is the perma WAAGH since that is an army-wide thing to begin with, and it doesnt put a limiter (thank god) that only the formation benefits from every turn WAAGH!

Object Secured is a rule purchased along with taking a CAD akin to the every-turn-waagh the formations give. The CAD has it, not the formation. (speaking of which, thats another BS that orks got shafted by. There are formations that get Object Secured despite its suppose to be a CAD thing, i can fully understand Tau not having it but why the fething hell doesnt Orks get it?)

Ghazzy cannot call his waagh every turn unless you buy the council, because he is not part of the formation thus your warlord is not part of the formation.

I can bring Shadowsun with my Tau formations for a simple tax of a solo Bodyguard Crisis Suit (which with the duo guns and 5pt support is 67pts, hey i got my melta-bomb suicide suit!). I seriously dont freakin' get why i cant take Ghazzy for the tax of a Nob or MAN squad for orks.
The ork changes once again scream an attempt at NOT giving a codex insane power. Its not like they cant kill anything, they just cant get to them because they die faster than any other codex across the board because everyone else has ridiculous rules that come stock and ignore what few we have. This kind of balance would be fine if everyone got the same damn treatment. I was actually pleased with the ork codex when it first came out since it was overall pretty good with only a few glaring issues - then every single codex release/update after it casually screwed it over more than they already did.

Keeping it legal is not as compelling...

Core - Waaagh-Band! - 908pts
Mek - 15pts
Warboss, MA, DLS - 125pts
Nobz, Warbikes - 135pts
3x Trukk Boyz, Nob, Big Choppa, Trukk Reinforced Ram - 348pts
2x Trukk Boyz - 95pts
Footslogger Boyz - 60pts
Gretchin - 35pts

Auxillary - 35pts
Gretchin - 35pts

Command - Council of Da Waaagh! - 904pts
Big Mek, MA, KFF - 125pts
Ghaz
Mad Dok
Nobz, Battlewagon, Reinforced Ram, Big Shoota - 194pts
Warboss, MA - 100pts
Warboss, MA - 100pts

Total 1847

I prefer the fantasy list myself.

fryfryfry wrote:
I think what we're missing here is it SHOULD be expensive if you want to take Ghazghkull. He doesn't just waaagh around with any band of Orks.

Think Armageddon size fights not 1850-point skirmishes.

So while Necrons and SM can use their Legions and Eldar can use their supply of fallen warriors, we should be thinking bigger is better because we're Orks?

OMG, it all makes sense now!

Absolutely, which is why we had the back straining Green Tide as our previous primary killer formation. Nothing unreasonable about compelling a faction to bring as many models as you can physically fit onto a table surface.
No, definitely nothing wrong with that at all. ;-)

 r_squared wrote:
Absolutely, which is why we had the back straining Green Tide as our previous primary killer formation. Nothing unreasonable about compelling a faction to bring as many models as you can physically fit onto a table surface.
No, definitely nothing wrong with that at all. ;-)

Well if thats what we are supposed to be doing then we should have a Formation that creates Boyz squads! Every turn a squad of 30 Sluggas or 20 Shootas automatically comes in from Reserves, and they have Outflank! Ill take 4 of these formations and literally drown my opponent in minis!!!

In all seriousness i've pretty well given up on GW, when my 6th ed Sisters book functions better than my Orks book (remember that they where on of the Big Four) its time to start homebrewing.

I think what everyone is forgetting is that (according to GamesWorkshop) we all buy GamesWorkshop models because they are such great models, not because anyone ever actually plays their game (according to GamesWorkshop). The rules are really arbitrary when you see it GamesWorkshop's way (or should I say ModelsWorkshop's way?) because they're really a model company, not a game company.

 r_squared wrote:
Keeping it legal is not as compelling...

Core - Waaagh-Band! - 908pts
Mek - 15pts
Warboss, MA, DLS - 125pts
Nobz, Warbikes - 135pts
3x Trukk Boyz, Nob, Big Choppa, Trukk Reinforced Ram - 348pts
2x Trukk Boyz - 95pts
Footslogger Boyz - 60pts
Gretchin - 35pts

Auxillary - 35pts
Gretchin - 35pts

Command - Council of Da Waaagh! - 904pts
Big Mek, MA, KFF - 125pts
Ghaz
Mad Dok
Nobz, Battlewagon, Reinforced Ram, Big Shoota - 194pts
Warboss, MA - 100pts
Warboss, MA - 100pts

Total 1847

I prefer the fantasy list myself.

I completely agree the longer I look at it the more it becomes apperent that the only problem is tthe council of da waaagh!
No way that that unit is worth 900 points. Yes you will kill those fist line of fire warriors but then you will have to face 900 points of suits shooting t you. My guess is that you will not survive this for a single turn.

Frozocrone, no, not at all. I don't think we should see a Phoenix Lord in an 1850 game nor Calgar for SM. As a Necron player, I'm not dropping Imotekh in my small games. And I'm not one of those double Canoptek Harvest guys either.

I just think people are so obsessed with 1850. If that's the only action some people can get, I feel for them. But there's more than just that. You can build some killer armies with this ... just beyond 1850.

I played Orks per 2000 and they are my first love. The game was very different back then, sure, but I've never looked at Orks as a "power" army.

Also, this is technically the Ghazghkull Detachment. I guess we'll have to wait and see what an actual Ork one might look like (or the IA update).

FryFry this seems all cool and thematic. But releasing an fluffy high points only detachment it is kinda harsh when your army desperately needs an update in order to see the light of day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can think of no game type in which that council of the waagh would be good thing to field. Even in appoc scale battles it would be horrible.

fryfryfry wrote:
Frozocrone, no, not at all. I don't think we should see a Phoenix Lord in an 1850 game nor Calgar for SM. As a Necron player, I'm not dropping Imotekh in my small games. And I'm not one of those double Canoptek Harvest guys either.

I just think people are so obsessed with 1850. If that's the only action some people can get, I feel for them. But there's more than just that. You can build some killer armies with this ... just beyond 1850.

I played Orks per 2000 and they are my first love. The game was very different back then, sure, but I've never looked at Orks as a "power" army.

Also, this is technically the Ghazghkull Detachment. I guess we'll have to wait and see what an actual Ork one might look like (or the IA update).

Maybe so. But most places are adopting the ITC in the USA and in the UK we don't have 2k games usually, they are 1.5k max.

Trying to squeeze the Orkurion in that many points and optimize it is a stretch. Meanwhile my SM and Necron toting friends can use their stuff willy nilly (admittedly a stretch for SM).

Can warlords still re roll warlord powers on the ork list if in a Gazcurion or only on the hrrible ghaz list. If they can take the Ork then we should have 2 chances of rolling prophet of the waaagh.
We don't need Ghaz for that just his warlord trait.

It says any WL trait. So... Finkin Cap maybe worth it now?

That item was already worth it since it no longer caps the Relic options.

2 warlord traits with re-rolls would likely see you get prophet of da waaagh, so you don't need ghaz for that.
It's just disappointing to be so close. If Ghaz was available as a warlord, outside of the council, then GW would probably struggle to keep him on the shelves.
With that single move, orks could have been making in roads back towards being a competitive codex. Alas, it was not to be.