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So, specific example here: I'm working on a Space Wolf successor army, and I'm building a scout unit. One of the markers is "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" and I want to know, basically, do all the Options rules that apply to the scouts also apply to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader?

Any Wolf Scout may replace his boltgun with a:
- Space Marine shotgun or close combat weapon…free
- Sniper rifle…1 pt/model

Can my Wolf Guard Pack Leader still take a sniper rifle, since he would have STARTED as a scout, or does he ONLY function as, basically, a Wolf Guard per the Wolf Guard unit rules, other than being part of the scout unit? I'll be frank, I'm mostly asking because I want to give him the stealth cloak but I need to know if he qualifies as both the Wolf Guard AND a scout, because he's part of the scout unit, or if not.

All of the Special Rules for the Scouts actually apply to the whole party, so they don't even matter, really. I just need to know for the gear list. And I DO suspect the answer is "no", but I ain't worried about it if it is.

There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

Yeah, that's what I figured. Thanks for confirming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further inquiry for the specific example given. Does my Wolf Guard Pack Leader take the base war gear shown in the Wolf Pack listing, such as the Chain Sword, or does he take the exact same base war gear shown in the Wolf Scout listing, even though he's not a scout?

If it says a specific name, such as "A Wolf Scout may take", then only the specifically named model with that statline can take it. If it says "Any Model may take", then any model, regardless of their name, can take it.

There should be a separate listing saying "A Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take" or something to that effect in the listing if a Wolf Guard is an option for the unit.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus. Just as there is no order of operations, there is also no requirement that all things have to be legal at the end. It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

If you take a Wolf Scout and take the option to give him a Sniper Rifle, this option is legal. If you subsequently take the option to make him a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, you would presumably still have the Sniper Rifle as NOTHING in the rules tell you to throw away pieces of wargear that have already been paid for. Sometimes, you'll see people argue that upgrading a model to a different model name would also have the side effect of "resetting" its wargear to the default set for the new model name. I don't tend to agree with this, as again, there is nothing telling you to throw away pieces of wargear that you've already paid for.

There are plenty of situations where Option A MUST be taken before Option B, more or less confirming that an order of operations is sometimes important. Models that can take Terminator Armour and then subsequently take Terminator Weapons are a good example. Option A must be taken before Option B. Proponents for an order of operations typically argue that it would be left to right, top to bottom... the way English is read. This goes a long way towards explaining why the first option in most units is to include more models. Such an option would necessarily have to be listed first.

Talk to your opponents and come up with a local consensus. You will not find one here.

 Kriswall wrote:
It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

Using that logic, then I should have no trouble shooting the heavy bolter on a Leman Russ that had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result on its heavy bolter in the last turn. After all, it never says it lasts the rest of the game and you're saying we don't look back at previous actions to see if the current action we're wanting to take leads to a legal result.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

Using that logic, then I should have no trouble shooting the heavy bolter on a Leman Russ that had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result on its heavy bolter in the last turn. After all, it never says it lasts the rest of the game and you're saying we don't look back at previous actions to see if the current action we're wanting to take leads to a legal result.

Entirely different situation. The Weapon Destroyed result tells us that... well... the weapon has been destroyed. Of course you can't fire it in the next turn. It's no longer there. If you can point to a rule stating that a Sniper Rifle I've paid for has been removed or taken away, I will agree that your example is similar. In the absence of such a rule, I assume the Sniper Rifle is still there.

No. Its the same situation. You look back in one situation to see if your current action leads to a legal result, but not the other. Please provide support why a previous result prevent an illegal action in one case and not the other.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. Its the same situation. You look back in one situation to see if your current action leads to a legal result, but not the other. Please provide support why a previous result prevent an illegal action in one case and not the other.

I will agree that a model who FIRST upgrades to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader cannot THEN take a Sniper Rifle. I will not agree that a model who FIRST takes a Sniper Rifle cannot THEN upgrade to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Order of operations is very important.

This is similar to how certain Marine HQ units must FIRST upgrade to Terminator Armour BEFORE taking Terminator only equipment. The second option is ONLY legal if you've FULLY RESOLVED the first option. This proves that options occur sequentially and not simultaneously.

As to support for why a previous result prevents an illegal action in once case and not the other... in your example, the two events are directly related. If a weapon has been previously destroyed, it cannot be fired because the the weapon no longer exists when you go to resolve your second event. In my example, nothing in the first event prevents the second event from occurring. Your assumption is that upgrading a Wolf Scout to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader is an illegal action if that Wolf Scout had PREVIOUSLY taken the upgrade for a Sniper Rifle. I challenge this assumption. There is no requirement saying that a Wolf Scout has to avoid options to ALTERNATELY upgrade to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. For reference, have a look at the Tau Commander Army List Entry. In that case, a Commander is specifically not allowed to take options and THEN upgrade to a Coldstar version. It's listed as an alternate choice. The Wolf Guard Pack Leader is NOT listed as an alternate choice.

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus.

That's disingenuous of you. There's not a consensus, but there's an overwhelming shared opinion versus a relatively tiny minority.

There's never a consensus on anything here.

"I want to shoot my heavy bolter. It had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result last turn. That was a previous turn, so I can ignore the 'Weapon Destroyed' result and shoot a weapon I can't legally shoot."

"I want to upgrade my Wolf Scout to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. He has a sniper rifle that a Wolf Scout Pack Leader can't take. That was a previous step in building my army list, so I can ignore the fact that the Wolf Scout Pack Leader would have a weapon he can't legally have."

Its the exact same situation requiring you to ignorie a previous result or choice that would lead to an illegal situation. So again, please provide a rule to supports allowing the sniper rifle on the Wolf Scout Pack Leader but not firing the heavy bolter the turn after it had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus.

That's disingenuous of you. There's not a consensus, but there's an overwhelming shared opinion versus a relatively tiny minority.

There's never a consensus on anything here.

Actually, the majority of threads come down to two vocal minorities yelling at each other. It's almost always a handful of people who won't back down. I don't think it's disingenuous at all to say that these threads rarely end with consensus. They generally end with a mod lock.

Ultimately, these threads generally end with one side adamantly stating that every option has to be checked for legality at the end of the option selection process and not throughout, but without citing any rules to backup that position. The other side claims an order of operations in selecting options is heavily implied (but not outright stated) and then says that if we assume an order of operations, we can take upgrades in order and end up with, for example, an Apothecary with a Meltagun. Next, someone suggests that everyone cool down and just ask their opponent. Insults start to fly, with implications that someone learn to read English being the most common. Finally, a mod lock occurs. A few weeks later, someone asks if an Ork Boy with a Big Shoota can be upgraded to a Nob and retain the Big Shoota. The cycle then begins anew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
"I want to shoot my heavy bolter. It had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result last turn. That was a previous turn, so I can ignore the 'Weapon Destroyed' result and shoot a weapon I can't legally shoot."

"I want to upgrade my Wolf Scout to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. He has a sniper rifle that a Wolf Scout Pack Leader can't take. That was a previous step in building my army list, so I can ignore the fact that the Wolf Scout Pack Leader would have a weapon he can't legally have."

Its the exact same situation with you ignoring a previous result or choice that would lead to an illegal situation. So again, please provide a rule to supports allowing the sniper rifle on the Wolf Scout Pack Leader but not firing the heavy bolter the turn after it had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result.

Walk me though the process of selecting options. I'd like to see at what exact point you think a Wolf Scout Pack Leader is selecting a Sniper Rifle. Feel free to treat me like I'm 5 years old. In my scenario, this never occurs, so I'd like to see what you think.

Also, feel free to cite the rule stating that a Wolf Scout who has selected a Sniper Rifle can't subsequently select the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader.

 Kriswall wrote:
Also, feel free to cite the rule stating that a Wolf Scout who has selected a Sniper Rifle can't subsequently select the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader.

Where is the sniper rifle listed as an option for a Wolf Scout Pack Leader after being upgraded? The only way you can take one is to ignore a previous choice on your part when you upgrade the model to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader, so why can't I ignore the previous 'Weapon Destroyed' result on the heavy bolter?

Haha. OP, as you can see, there is no consensus.

Talk it out with your opponent or group before you play a game. Warhammer 40k almost demands this nowadays, the RAW is usually ambiguous and can be interpreted many ways.

Personally I wouldn't care if you interpreted the rules to allow you to pick a sniper rifle and then upgrade him to a wolf guard leader. But I'm here more to have fun than win games, and as such am pretty RAI or RAYWTP (rules as you want to play) guy. GW clearly doesn't balance their rules or describe them amazingly well, so there's no reason any hobbyist can't decide how they want to play the game together with their opponent.

This thread will likely devolve into two sides not backing down, as Kriswall mentioned.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. Its the same situation. You look back in one situation to see if your current action leads to a legal result, but not the other. Please provide support why a previous result prevent an illegal action in one case and not the other.

Logically, it ISN'T the same situation, Let's stick this into a real world situation. A military sniper promoted to Officer is STILL a sniper, but a regular soldier that gets promoted to officer and THEN wants to learn to shoot a rifle isn't a sniper. At best, he might become a decent marksman, but he's not a sniper. The logic here extends to the game... A Scout who has a sniper rifle getting promoted to, basically, unit commander would still BE a sniper, and would likely be teaching 'new' scouts how to use them, but a Wolf Guard that was getting a promotion to Wolf Guard Pack Leader and was PLACED in command of his unit would, on the other hand, NOT be a sniper. There's an enormous difference between sticking a guy with a certain set of skills into better armor and sticking a guy with a certain suit of armor into a command position.

A weapon, on the other hand, is clearly - and inherently - a finite resource. You blow up your gun, your gun is blown up, period. Just because a guy might be able to keep his sniper rifle when he gets an extra stripe on his sleeve doesn't mean that a gun magically reassembles itself. He's not an orc, after all.

I suppose THIS question would come down to the other question I asked, though, WHICH 'starting' list of gear do I use? Does my Wolf Guard Pack Leader in charge of my scouts START with the scout war gear list, or does he START with the Wolf Guard gear list? Because, if he's starting with the Wolf Guard list but limited in what he can take as upgrades because he's with a scout unit, that's one thing, but for him to have the scout war gear, but NOT be allowed to take the scout upgrades/options, would be a logical pitfall, since it cripples him both as a scout AND as a Pack Leader.

And yes, AncientSkarbrand, I see the inherent lack of consensus.

A Wolf Scout Pack Leader is NOT a Wolf Scout. The rules make that abundantly clear by giving those model's separate stat lines and options. That is why entries such as Wolf Guard have options for 'Wolf Guard', 'Wolf Guard Pack Leader' and for 'Any model'. If the option was for any model in the squad, it would have been listed for 'Any model'.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Haha. OP, as you can see, there is no consensus.

There's only one dissenting opinion. That is practically a consensus.

 Ghaz wrote:
A Wolf Scout Pack Leader is NOT a Wolf Scout. The rules make that abundantly clear by giving those model's separate stat lines and options. That is why entries such as Wolf Guard have options for 'Wolf Guard', 'Wolf Guard Pack Leader' and for 'Any model'. If the option was for any model in the squad, it would have been listed for 'Any model'.

That actually actively ignores the followup question I was asking while trying to hammer your own opinion home. I REALIZE that it's NOT a scout, and I REALIZE that the separate stats line indicate this, HOWEVER, allow me to give you a counter point:
"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader ... 10 pts"

This clearly indicates that, while he is NOT a scout, he WAS a scout to begin with. Unless my understanding is flaws (which, since I'm kinda new to all of this, is possible) that would qualify as a 'special rule', and I'm under the impression that a special rule ALWAYS replaces the standard rule. That's part of why I'm asking the question of what gear he starts with. If he STARTS with the scout gear, because he was a scout to begin with and UPGRADED to the unit commander, then it clarifies and gives me a specific, logical direction to go. If, on the other hand, he starts with the gear listed for the WOLF GUARD, since the wolf guard is IDENTICAL to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader, then it gives me a different, but still specific and logical, direction to go.

What the model WAS is of no concern. He is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. A Wolf Scout Pack Leader does not have the option to take a sniper rifle.

Look at the Grey Hunters entry. Why is the option to take a plasma pistol limited to a Grey Hunter while the option to take a close combat weapon is available to "any model"? If GW wanted the Wolf Guard Leader to be able to take the squad's option of a plasma pistol wouldn't it say "One model..." instead of "One Grey Hunter..."? What possible reason could there be to allow an upgrade if taken in one order and disallow it if taken in a different order? No one would ever use the order that disallows the option. How would you even know if someone did take the plasma pistol after he upgraded the model to a Wolf Guard Leader? Claiming you can take an option that's not available to the model by choosing the order you take your upgrades just does not pass the smell test.

To take Terminator weapons, you must purchase Terminator armour, using vanilla captains as an example, they become a "Captain in Terminator Armour" when upgraded, and their entry states they may take weapons from x list, y list and z list, but the standard captain can take stuff from a, b and c. Follow the unit entry's upgrade list from the top down.


This is how we don't get Terminators with boltguns and combat shields.

 Ghaz wrote:
What the model WAS is of no concern. He is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. A Wolf Scout Pack Leader does not have the option to take a sniper rifle.

Look at the Grey Hunters entry. Why is the option to take a plasma pistol limited to a Grey Hunter while the option to take a close combat weapon is available to "any model"? If GW wanted the Wolf Guard Leader to be able to take the squad's option of a plasma pistol wouldn't it say "One model..." instead of "One Grey Hunter..."? What possible reason could there be to allow an upgrade if taken in one order and disallow it if taken in a different order? No one would ever use the order that disallows the option. How would you even know if someone did take the plasma pistol after he upgraded the model to a Wolf Guard Leader? Claiming you can take an option that's not available to the model by choosing the order you take your upgrades just does not pass the smell test.

By that logic, why would the scouts' Scout and Infiltrate abilities apply to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader? He's not a scout. And, to top that off, he's in heavier armor. Why would he get to take advantage of the special abilities of the Scout unit just because they're in the same unit? Should it be the opposite, the fact that this clunky guy is in their unit, by that logic, would completely nullify their abilities.

Zarius wrote:
By that logic, why would the scouts' Scout and Infiltrate abilities apply to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader? He's not a scout. And, to top that off, he's in heavier armor. Why would he get to take advantage of the special abilities of the Scout unit just because they're in the same unit? Should it be the opposite, the fact that this clunky guy is in their unit, by that logic, would completely nullify their abilities.

Scout and Infiltrate both say "units that contain at least one model with this special rule", allowing Wolf Guard Pack Leaders to scout/infiltrate.
The Wolf Guard doesn't have scout/infiltrate but it doesn't need to.

Maybe you should look up Scout and Infiltrate in the rulebook and note that only one model in the unit is required to have the rule for it to effect the entire unit.

Zarius wrote:
By that logic, why would the scouts' Scout and Infiltrate abilities apply to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader? He's not a scout. And, to top that off, he's in heavier armor. Why would he get to take advantage of the special abilities of the Scout unit just because they're in the same unit? Should it be the opposite, the fact that this clunky guy is in their unit, by that logic, would completely nullify their abilities.

The Leader is still on the datasheet and those Special Rules are not noted as being separated from the rest of the unit like his unit type is.

However, he is a different model with a different stat line, unit type, and option set than the Wolf Scout. Whether he can access the options before the upgrade is never fully defined.

Charistoph wrote:
The Leader is still on the datasheet and those Special Rules are not noted as being separated from the rest of the unit like his unit type is.

They are however noted as 'Wolf Scout Only' The only one that matters however is 'Move Through Cover' and only when the squad is down to just the Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

 Ghaz wrote:
What the model WAS is of no concern. He is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. A Wolf Scout Pack Leader does not have the option to take a sniper rifle.

Look at the Grey Hunters entry. Why is the option to take a plasma pistol limited to a Grey Hunter while the option to take a close combat weapon is available to "any model"? If GW wanted the Wolf Guard Leader to be able to take the squad's option of a plasma pistol wouldn't it say "One model..." instead of "One Grey Hunter..."? What possible reason could there be to allow an upgrade if taken in one order and disallow it if taken in a different order? No one would ever use the order that disallows the option. How would you even know if someone did take the plasma pistol after he upgraded the model to a Wolf Guard Leader? Claiming you can take an option that's not available to the model by choosing the order you take your upgrades just does not pass the smell test.

Ah, I understand now. The model is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader, so any options not available to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader will be illegal. That makes life easier since I guess that means we can never have Wolf Scout Pack Leaders in our lists. After all, the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader is only available to Wolf Scouts and our model isn't a Wolf Scout. Per your own logic, that makes the upgrade to Wolf Scout Pack Leader illegal since it's not something a Wolf Scout Pack Leader can take.

See how ridiculous this sounds?

For the umpteenth time, there is NO RULE stating that we have to go back and validate each option against the model's final state. If there were, we'd never be able to upgrade models to other model types as above.

 Kriswall wrote:
Ah, I understand now. The model is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader, so any options not available to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader will be illegal. That makes life easier since I guess that means we can never have Wolf Scout Pack Leaders in our lists. After all, the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader is only available to Wolf Scouts and our model isn't a Wolf Scout.

Wrong. It is an option for a Wolf Scout taken by a Wolf Scout. Or are you saying that a Wolf Scout is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader before he takes the option? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

 Kriswall wrote:
For the umpteenth time, there is NO RULE stating that we have to go back and validate each option against the model's final state. If there were, we'd never be able to upgrade models to other model types as above.

The I don't have to go back and validate that my heavy bolter hasn't suffered a 'Weapon Destroyed' result before I fire it. Good to know. Fire away!

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Ah, I understand now. The model is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader, so any options not available to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader will be illegal. That makes life easier since I guess that means we can never have Wolf Scout Pack Leaders in our lists. After all, the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader is only available to Wolf Scouts and our model isn't a Wolf Scout.

Wrong. It is an option for a Wolf Scout taken by a Wolf Scout. Or are you saying that a Wolf Scout is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader before he takes the option? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

 Kriswall wrote:
For the umpteenth time, there is NO RULE stating that we have to go back and validate each option against the model's final state. If there were, we'd never be able to upgrade models to other model types as above.

The I don't have to go back and validate that my heavy bolter hasn't suffered a 'Weapon Destroyed' result before I fire it. Good to know. Fire away!

No point arguing with someone who refuses to cite rules to support his position. Until you cite a rule stating that each option a model takes has to be validated against that model's final form, I will assume that everything you say is a house rule and that you don't understand the difference between rules as written and personal house rules.

Enjoy your weekend!

To the OP... this is how every single instance of this discussion goes. I'm far from the only person who feels this way. I just happen to be the only person stupid enough to having bothered responding this time around. Discuss with your opponents. If you're playing in an organized event, ask the organizer.

Except that if your bolter is destroyed, you don't HAVE a bolter anymore. You can't validate whether or not you don't have a weapon that no longer exists.

Zarius wrote:
Except that if your bolter is destroyed, you don't HAVE a bolter anymore. You can't validate whether or not you don't have a weapon that no longer exists.

And how do I know its destroyed? I have to look back and see that I had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result, yet for some reason Kriswall says I don't have to look back and see if the Wolf Scout has a weapon that the Wolf Guard Pack Leader does not have as an option. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I either look back for both cases or neither, so which is it?