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 Ghaz wrote:

Zarius wrote:
Except that if your bolter is destroyed, you don't HAVE a bolter anymore. You can't validate whether or not you don't have a weapon that no longer exists.

And how do I know its destroyed? I have to look back and see that I had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result, yet for some reason Kriswall says I don't have to look back and see if the Wolf Scout has a weapon that the Wolf Guard Pack Leader does not have as an option. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I either look back for both cases or neither, so which is it?

Vehicle Damage Table, 5 - Weapon Destroyed - "One of the vehicle's weapons (randomly chosen) is destroyed - including any combi- or built in weapons."

Presumably I don't have to define destroyed for you. But... I'm going to anyways.

de·stroy
dəˈstroi/
verb
past tense: destroyed; past participle: destroyed
put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.
"the room had been destroyed by fire"

So, a destroyed weapon, using the most common English definition given that there is no more specific in game definition, is a weapon that has been damaged such that it's existence has ended. It no longer exists.

The Shooting Sequence, 3. Select a Weapon - "Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with."

Are you equipped with a weapon that no longer exists? No. Therefore, you can't shoot with it.

I played your silly game and answered your question. Now you play mine.

Please demonstrate one of the following via rules...
1. Options can only be selected from top to bottom, thus meaning that a Wolf Scout is required to take the option for being upgraded before being presented with the option to take a Sniper Rifle.
OR
2. A model's option choices have to be validated against the model's final state after all option choices are made.

I don't see any rules telling me to do either of these things.

IF the option was "A Wolf Scout who has not selected a Sniper Rifle may be upgraded to a Wolf Guard Battle Leader", you'd have a leg to stand on.

 Ghaz wrote:

Zarius wrote:
Except that if your bolter is destroyed, you don't HAVE a bolter anymore. You can't validate whether or not you don't have a weapon that no longer exists.

And how do I know its destroyed? I have to look back and see that I had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result, yet for some reason Kriswall says I don't have to look back and see if the Wolf Scout has a weapon that the Wolf Guard Pack Leader does not have as an option. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I either look back for both cases or neither, so which is it?

The point that Kriswall is trying to make is that you don't magically LOOSE the ability to do something just because you get a promotion. If your gun explodes, you no longer HAVE a gun to check. But just because you get stuck into a different suit of armor doesn't mean you magically loose the skills, or that you magically loose the gear. All a space marine 'sniper rifle' really is is a bolter with a longer barrel, so you can't even really make the argument that he'd loose access to the gear because his armor won't fit in the finger guard.

Let me rephrase what you're saying a little, or at least what I'm understanding that you're saying: by your logic, you're telling me that he would ALSO start with the scout initial gear list, because that's the unit he belongs to and the gear list for that unit. But that means that, even though he's a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, and not a Scout, he can't take both a Melee weapon swap out and a Ranged swap out, because he doesn't have access to the Chain Sword, even though that IS what the unit would start with if he were a Wolf Guard (pack leader or otherwise). The ability to take a Wolf Claw or a Frost Axe AND a plasma pistol or a storm bolter, or even a combi- if you want the one-shot, make the Wolf Guard worth taking. The ability to shoot the crap out of the enemy and then smash a tank with a frost axe or to wade into a brood swarm is literally what makes them worth the cost. But by your logic, he wouldn't start with the gear that would allow him to do that. BUT, on the same coin, because he's not a scout, he can't have the sniper rifle and the cloak. What makes him worth taking? The extra plasma pistol? The meltabomb? Nice, but not worth the cost. Something that hurts me is only useful in rare instances, even when I CAN get within the 12" range. The meltabomb is nice against a tank, but it's only a little *edit* more *end edit* powerful than a Krak grenade. He literally isn't worth the cost without EITHER the ability to function effectively as a scout, OR the ability to take ALL of his normal options. So, if he can't function as either what he IS or what he WAS, what's the point in even including the option?

All the WGPL's come with different load-outs that are specifically stated in the datasheet of the unit.
WGPL =/= WG
WGPL's have to follow the wargear options that is stated in the unit datasheet. You can't take WG's wargear by being a WGPL.

For Grey Hunters, their WGPL comes with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword. And has it's own upgrades like TDA, etc.
For Wolf Scouts, their WGPL comes with Bolt Pistol and Boltgun. And has it's own upgrades.

It says in the BRB,
"Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices."

This tells us that the WGPL's were never considered Wolf Scouts by the game when determining starting wargear/options/statline. If you decide to upgrade one Wolf Scout to a WGPL, it would enter the unit with it's own profile. You aren't ever "re-writing" the chosen Wolf Scout's weapon/wargear, but it is being replaced entirely with the WGPL's own personal profile.

So I guess, technically, you could upgrade the Wolf Scout to have a Sniper Rifle if you wanted to. And then upgrade the Wolf Scout with a Sniper Rifle, to a WGPL. But then, it would just be replaced with WGPL's own profile, which doesn't come with a Sniper Rifle. So there would be no point.

Again, you don't have a single rule to back that up. Please provide a single rule that says you can give a unit an option he can't take by trying to think that you're being clever when you build your army list. And while you're at it, you still haven't answered my previous questions.

 Ghaz wrote:
Look at the Grey Hunters entry. Why is the option to take a plasma pistol limited to a Grey Hunter while the option to take a close combat weapon is available to "any model"? If GW wanted the Wolf Guard Leader to be able to take the squad's option of a plasma pistol wouldn't it say "One model..." instead of "One Grey Hunter..."? What possible reason could there be to allow an upgrade if taken in one order and disallow it if taken in a different order? No one would ever use the order that disallows the option. How would you even know if someone did take the plasma pistol after he upgraded the model to a Wolf Guard Leader? Claiming you can take an option that's not available to the model by choosing the order you take your upgrades just does not pass the smell test.

Rasko wrote:

They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices."

First, off, Rasko, kudos on actually using text. That means I can go and do a ctrl+f in the manual to find it. I appreciate that. Now, that said, while I DO understand the rest of it, this little part seemingly completely reverses the meaning of it. If they're "just another trooper" in a scout unit... If they're just another trooper in a unit of Blood Claws... Them being "just another trooper" indicates that they'd HAVE those selections that are specific to the 'lesser' troops, but with EXTRA stuff specific to him. That one little section seems to reverse the meaning...

God help the man that tries to take away my outflanking Fortress of Redemption

Zarius wrote:
First, off, Rasko, kudos on actually using text. That means I can go and do a ctrl+f in the manual to find it. I appreciate that. Now, that said, while I DO understand the rest of it, this little part seemingly completely reverses the meaning of it. If they're "just another trooper" in a scout unit... If they're just another trooper in a unit of Blood Claws... Them being "just another trooper" indicates that they'd HAVE those selections that are specific to the 'lesser' troops, but with EXTRA stuff specific to him. That one little section seems to reverse the meaning...

No problem mate. But no, the "just another trooper" means that it is considered part of the unit (before deployment, count towards the number of models in the unit for "if you have 10 models, you can take an extra Special Weapon", etc, and those types of things.). And that usually, they will have enhanced characteristics and different weapon options.

It explicitly says that it has it's own profile, which naturally include starting gear, wargear options, statline, etc. Just being in the unit does not give a WGPL, the ability to purchase items that aren't in his profile. It is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it, by the virtue of "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.". The datasheet then tell us exactly what the WGPL starts with, exactly what upgrades can be taken by it, and it's specific statline.

Rasko wrote:

Zarius wrote:
First, off, Rasko, kudos on actually using text. That means I can go and do a ctrl+f in the manual to find it. I appreciate that. Now, that said, while I DO understand the rest of it, this little part seemingly completely reverses the meaning of it. If they're "just another trooper" in a scout unit... If they're just another trooper in a unit of Blood Claws... Them being "just another trooper" indicates that they'd HAVE those selections that are specific to the 'lesser' troops, but with EXTRA stuff specific to him. That one little section seems to reverse the meaning...

No problem mate. But no, the "just another trooper" means that it is considered part of the unit (before deployment, count towards the number of models in the unit for "if you have 10 models, you can take an extra Special Weapon", etc, and those types of things.). And that usually, they will have enhanced characteristics and different weapon options.

It explicitly says that it has it's own profile, which naturally include starting gear, wargear options, statline, etc. Just being in the unit does not give a WGPL, the ability to purchase items that aren't in his profile. It is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it, by the virtue of "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.". The datasheet then tell us exactly what the WGPL starts with, exactly what upgrades can be taken by it, and it's specific statline.

OK, that sucks. That means that I have to either NOT take him, to get the sniper and cloak, or I have to pick between a plasma pistol or a Frost Axe. *sighs* The way YOU explain it, though, that makes sense. Especially since you DID link quotes.

Rasko wrote:
It is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it, by the virtue of "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.".

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader XX pts"

I'm curious how you intend to take the above option if the model "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it". Seriously. That's a major flaw in your argument. Assuming you're correct, there is a catch 22 and you wouldn't be able to take the WGPL upgrade since that's an option only available to Wolf Scouts and you've said that the game never considers the model a Wolf Scout.

It's important to parse the exact wording of the option, because they differ between units and codices. In the case of a Space Marine Tactical Squad, you are "taking" four Space Marines and one Space Marine Sergeant. There is no overlap between them, so you can't end up with Sarge toting a heavy bolter. In the case of Space Wolves Blood Claws , however, you are "upgrading" an existing model. You started with five Blood Claws, any one of which are entitled to take Blood Claw options in any legal order, including the Pack Leader upgrade.

Note also that certain upgrades like Terminator Armour specify additional conditions (i.e., exchanging bolt pistol, chainsword, and grenades), but absent such phrasing, nothing prevents you from keeping your existing wargear.

Having said all that, I'm certain this thread will continue for many additional pages, but if you want to get a sneak peek of the upcoming circular arguments, search this forum for Apothecary wargear, it's the same situation with the same arguments and many of the same people.

 Kriswall wrote:
"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader XX pts"

I'm curious how you intend to take the above option if the model "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it". Seriously. That's a major flaw in your argument. Assuming you're correct, there is a catch 22 and you wouldn't be able to take the WGPL upgrade since that's an option only available to Wolf Scouts and you've said that the game never considers the model a Wolf Scout.

Here was how I understood it,

For the Tactical Squad datasheet, the Unit Composition:
-4 Space Marines
-1 Space Marine Sergeant

For the Wolf Scout datasheet, the Unit Composition:
-5 Wolf Scouts

If you upgrade 1 Wolf Scout to a WGPL, the Unit Composition of the Wolf Scout datasheet is now:
-4 Wolf Scout
-1 WGPL

I'm not seeing a catch 22 that would make taking WGPL impossible.

"They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
Doesn't "their own profile" include statline, starting gear, upgrade options, special rules, etc? They then make it clear what the statline is, what the starting gear is, and what specific upgrades it has available, and etc on the datasheet.
Doesn't "but do not have a separate entry" mean that the BRB wants us to use the profile of 'WGPL' and not 'Wolf Scout"? That they are considered entirely separate. The profile of "WGPL" would never have used anything from the profile of "Wolf Scout". The chosen Wolf Scout's profile is never merged or matched to 'become' the WGPL. They make it clear that it is a separate profile altogether.

Rasko wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader XX pts"

I'm curious how you intend to take the above option if the model "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it". Seriously. That's a major flaw in your argument. Assuming you're correct, there is a catch 22 and you wouldn't be able to take the WGPL upgrade since that's an option only available to Wolf Scouts and you've said that the game never considers the model a Wolf Scout.

Here was how I understood it,

For the Tactical Squad datasheet, the Unit Composition:
-4 Space Marines
-1 Space Marine Sergeant

For the Wolf Scout datasheet, the Unit Composition:
-5 Wolf Scouts

If you upgrade 1 Wolf Scout to a WGPL, the Unit Composition of the Wolf Scout datasheet is now:
-4 Wolf Scout
-1 WGPL

I'm not seeing a catch 22 that would make taking WGPL impossible.

"They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
Doesn't "their own profile" include statline, starting gear, upgrade options, special rules, etc? They then make it clear what the statline is, what the starting gear is, and what specific upgrades it has available, and etc on the datasheet.
Doesn't "but do not have a separate entry" mean that the BRB wants us to use the profile of 'WGPL' and not 'Wolf Scout"? That they are considered entirely separate. The profile of "WGPL" would never have used anything from the profile of "Wolf Scout". The chosen Wolf Scout's profile is never merged or matched to 'become' the WGPL. They make it clear that it is a separate profile altogether.

My point was that he said the model who becomes WGPL "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available", yet the option to become a WGPL is only available to Wolf Scouts. His argument is internally inconsistent and makes no logical sense. Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

You move downwards, Jesus how hard is it?

 Kriswall wrote:
My point was that he said the model who becomes WGPL "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available", yet the option to become a WGPL is only available to Wolf Scouts.

I am the same person...

 Kriswall wrote:
His argument is internally inconsistent and makes no logical sense. Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

Anyway, what I meant by "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available",
is exactly as I re-iterated (quoting myself here), in case people got confused...

Rasko wrote:
Doesn't "but do not have a separate entry" mean that the BRB wants us to use the profile of 'WGPL' and not 'Wolf Scout"? That they are considered entirely separate. The profile of "WGPL" would never have used anything from the profile of "Wolf Scout". The chosen Wolf Scout's profile is never merged or matched to 'become' the WGPL. They make it clear that it is a separate profile altogether.

 Kriswall wrote:
Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

Your quote directly contradicts what you said.
"Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken."

What Unit Composition says is that it shows the number and type of models before upgrades are taken. Once upgrades are taken, the Unit Composition changes.


I'm not seeing anything that contradicts what I wrote. Everything I wrote is supported by the rules. Also, I don't agree that you have to go downward. There is no information to support that. But that doesn't matter in this instance because the profile's are entirely different.

The pack leader is a different model, it has it's own set of options in the unit listing. The unit composition and war gear show the unit prior to any upgrades taken.

The pack leader is taken as an upgrade, and is from there forward, treated as a new model with a new set of war gear that it comes with as standard, then below that (hence vertically descending) should be the options for it. The pack leader is not specified as being able to take a Sniper Rifle because
A) He has a new statline, new set of war gear and possibly special rules
B) The normal wolf scouts are not permitted to take what the Pack Leader can, GW might not write the most balanced rules but at least it's in order.

If he was able to take a Rifle, it would say so. But it doesn't, just like how Terminator Captains can't take Special Weapons, because it's options are specified as Special Issue and Terminator issue Weapons, etc. The armour is an upgrade and it confers a new set of rules upon it, making it a different unit.

I seriously have no idea why you and ONLY YOU Kriswall are having trouble with such a simple concept


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tl;dr If it's not directly stated, it's wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also think of it like Computer code, it moves through the tasks given in set parameters until a new set of parameters are imposed (in this case the unit upgrade) then it will move through the tasks again under these new parameters.

Ah ok. If that was what you meant by descending, then I agree.

 Kriswall wrote:
My point was that he said the model who becomes WGPL "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available", yet the option to become a WGPL is only available to Wolf Scouts. His argument is internally inconsistent and makes no logical sense. Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

He DOES have a point there, the wording of the option DOES clearly indicate that it DID start off AS a scout. That's inherent in the fact that the datasheet only becomes 4 scouts and a WPGL AFTER one of the scouts takes the upgrade, thus indicating a 'promotion.' Sorry, but if you get promoted because of an excellence in a specific skill, why would they then remove your ability to USE the skills that got you the promotion in the first place. This would make no logistical sense.

"OK, everyone here is a great sniper, but this guy here is slightly better than the rest. We're promoting you [based on the wording of the rules] to Squad commander, here's your new armor. Turn over your sniper-patterned bolt rifle, oh mighty sniper."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
The pack leader is a different model, it has it's own set of options in the unit listing. The unit composition and war gear show the unit prior to any upgrades taken.

The pack leader is taken as an upgrade, and is from there forward, treated as a new model with a new set of war gear that it comes with as standard, then below that (hence vertically descending) should be the options for it. The pack leader is not specified as being able to take a Sniper Rifle because
A) He has a new statline, new set of war gear and possibly special rules
B) The normal wolf scouts are not permitted to take what the Pack Leader can, GW might not write the most balanced rules but at least it's in order.

If he was able to take a Rifle, it would say so. But it doesn't, just like how Terminator Captains can't take Special Weapons, because it's options are specified as Special Issue and Terminator issue Weapons, etc. The armour is an upgrade and it confers a new set of rules upon it, making it a different unit.

I seriously have no idea why you and ONLY YOU Kriswall are having trouble with such a simple concept


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tl;dr If it's not directly stated, it's wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also think of it like Computer code, it moves through the tasks given in set parameters until a new set of parameters are imposed (in this case the unit upgrade) then it will move through the tasks again under these new parameters.

Actually, he DOESN'T get a new set of gear, he has the EXACT same starting war gear list as the Scout, no difference. But you tell me that, even though it's CLEARLY an upgrade, he CAN'T take any of the scout options, but several of the options that actually make the WGPL useful aren't available because of the Scout-based war gear.

What... You are using real life as a counter-argument to a game...

Everything I said follows the rules of the game. If you want to take the stance that you are right because of IRL army promotion mechanics... I'm not sure how to respond. Actually, I'm not sure how you could ever go through a game of 40k because it is not IRL...

The profile of the Wolf Scout chosen is replaced by the profile of a WGPL.
This is clearly shown in "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
Please walk me through your reasoning in how that sentence means the Wolf Scout profile is 'changed' to become a WGPL profile. It is replaced because they are entirely separate entries, the BRB just didn't separate them. Two entirely separate entities. When the WGPL comes into the unit, it does so with it's own profile (which include it's own statline, it's own starting gear, it's own special rules, etc.).

And as shown before, Unit Compositions do change...

Zarius wrote:
Actually, he DOESN'T get a new set of gear, he has the EXACT same starting war gear list as the Scout, no difference. But you tell me that, even though it's CLEARLY an upgrade, he CAN'T take any of the scout options, but several of the options that actually make the WGPL useful aren't available because of the Scout-based war gear.

It doesn't matter that this time, he has the exact same starting gear as Wolf Scouts. Look at Grey Hunters. Their WGPL does not have the exact same starting gear. It means nothing. All the WGPL's come with their own profile and starting gear.

Also, I don't think even Kriswal will argue that you can take Scout options as a WGPL...
The fact that you think that makes a WGPL less useful has no bearing on the rules...

Rasko wrote:
Also, I don't think even Kriswal will argue that you can take Scout options as a WGPL...
The fact that you think that makes a WGPL less useful has no bearing on the rules...

Actually.. He was arguing EXACTLY that, on the basis that a unit wouldn't LOOSE his gear just because he upgrades.

Zarius wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
My point was that he said the model who becomes WGPL "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available", yet the option to become a WGPL is only available to Wolf Scouts. His argument is internally inconsistent and makes no logical sense. Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

He DOES have a point there, the wording of the option DOES clearly indicate that it DID start off AS a scout. That's inherent in the fact that the datasheet only becomes 4 scouts and a WPGL AFTER one of the scouts takes the upgrade, thus indicating a 'promotion.' Sorry, but if you get promoted because of an excellence in a specific skill, why would they then remove your ability to USE the skills that got you the promotion in the first place. This would make no logistical sense.

"OK, everyone here is a great sniper, but this guy here is slightly better than the rest. We're promoting you [based on the wording of the rules] to Squad commander, here's your new armor. Turn over your sniper-patterned bolt rifle, oh mighty sniper."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
The pack leader is a different model, it has it's own set of options in the unit listing. The unit composition and war gear show the unit prior to any upgrades taken.

The pack leader is taken as an upgrade, and is from there forward, treated as a new model with a new set of war gear that it comes with as standard, then below that (hence vertically descending) should be the options for it. The pack leader is not specified as being able to take a Sniper Rifle because
A) He has a new statline, new set of war gear and possibly special rules
B) The normal wolf scouts are not permitted to take what the Pack Leader can, GW might not write the most balanced rules but at least it's in order.

If he was able to take a Rifle, it would say so. But it doesn't, just like how Terminator Captains can't take Special Weapons, because it's options are specified as Special Issue and Terminator issue Weapons, etc. The armour is an upgrade and it confers a new set of rules upon it, making it a different unit.

I seriously have no idea why you and ONLY YOU Kriswall are having trouble with such a simple concept


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tl;dr If it's not directly stated, it's wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also think of it like Computer code, it moves through the tasks given in set parameters until a new set of parameters are imposed (in this case the unit upgrade) then it will move through the tasks again under these new parameters.

Actually, he DOESN'T get a new set of gear, he has the EXACT same starting war gear list as the Scout, no difference. But you tell me that, even though it's CLEARLY an upgrade, he CAN'T take any of the scout options, but several of the options that actually make the WGPL useful aren't available because of the Scout-based war gear.

You're using logistics and Warhammer... moreover 40k... moreover Space Wolves?

Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

Same reason why there are some things a Vet Sergeant can take but there are others a Normal Sergeant cannot take.

Usefulness and logic don't help you outside what's written.IF we are using logic and reason, tell me how a dinky sniper rifle and a small waist high cloak is going to help an 8ft Power Armoured warrior - to bring up Terminator a again, it's why they can only take Combie Weapons, Storm Bolsters, Assault Cannons, Lightning Claws, TH/SS, and Heavy Flamers, it's all that will fit in their hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Surely you also reset the wargear of an upgraded model, take away any points spent on it, then start on where it says
"Wolf Scout Pack Leader may take X,Y,Z for A points"
Follow it downward in chronological order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and, even good Scout snipers don't use snipers sometimes... Exhibit A) Torias Telion.

Zarius wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Also, I don't think even Kriswal will argue that you can take Scout options as a WGPL...
The fact that you think that makes a WGPL less useful has no bearing on the rules...

Actually.. He was arguing EXACTLY that, on the basis that a unit wouldn't LOOSE his gear just because he upgrades.

I'm certainly not arguing that you can take Wolf Scout only options as a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Just wanted to point that out and make it very clear.

I'm arguing the following. Feel free to counter the points however you want.

1. Army List Entries provide us with a STARTING Unit Composition and a STARTING set of wargear for each model in the unit.

2. Army List Entries provide us with a list of options that we are told we can take for the unit and/or the models in the unit.

3. There is no rule requiring that we select the above options in any particular order. Top to bottom is an English language reading convention, but there is no actual requirement to select options from top to bottom. This is very similar to how restaurant menus work. The menus are printed in English, but there is no inherent requirement built into the English language that you must order dessert last.

4. Once an option has been selected that grants additional or different wargear beyond the STARTING wargear to a specific model and due to the permissive nature of the game, that model can be considered to have that piece of wargear unless some rule or other interaction specifically says otherwise.

5. There is no rule telling us that upgrading a model from one name and profile to another name and profile removes previously selected wargear options. I.e., there is nothing in the rules telling us to 'reset' the model back to the STARTING wargear of the new profile.

So, in the specific example of taking a Wolf Scout unit...

1. I select the Wolf Scouts Army List Entry from Codex: Space Wolves. Based on the listed Unit Composition, the starting number and type of models in the unit will be five Wolf Scouts. The listed Wargear tells us, among other things, that each Wolf Scout has Scout Armour and a Boltgun.

2. Two of the options list are "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" and "Any Wolf Scout may replace his Boltgun with a Sniper Rifle".

3. Given that there is no rules requirement to take the options in order, I first decide to use the Sniper Rifle upgrade to replace the five Wolf Scouts' Boltguns with Sniper Rifles. I have taken a Wolf Scout only upgrade on Wolf Scouts. I subsequently use the option to upgrade one of these Wolf Scouts to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

4. The newly upgraded WGPL loses his Scout Armour as that is explicitly called out as being for "Wolf Scouts only" on the datasheet. Note that no other Wargear is listed as Wolf Scouts only. He also, presumably speaking, gains Power Armour as that is specifically called out as "Wolf Guard Pack Leader only". No other changes are made. The Sniper Rifle that the model having been upgraded to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader is currently holding is specifically NOT called out as being for Wolf Scouts only. Ergo, it is not.

For this to NOT work, you need to demonstrate, via rules citations, one of two things. You can either demonstrate that options must be taking in order, in which case the Sniper Rifle option is only available after the WGPL option. Otherwise, you can demonstrate that when a model is upgraded to a new name and profile, all of that model's wargear is removed and 'reset' to the starting wargear for the new profile. I'm unable to find rules evidence for either of these two scenarios.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

Ridiculous logic is ridiculous. A VERY large number of options on datasheets can't be represented with what is provided in a single box. Many upgrades require the combination of multiple boxes or conversions.

Aha, quote 'pick n mixing', what you do in a losing argument.

If you read the rest of the post you'd know why I said this.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
You're using logistics and Warhammer... moreover 40k... moreover Space Wolves?

Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

I can't model a Tactical Marine with a Multimelta from what comes in the box, it is still an option, though.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Same reason why there are some things a Vet Sergeant can take but there are others a Normal Sergeant cannot take.

I am curious on this one, can you name what? The only cases I can think of are cases where there is no "Sergeant" in the unit, but only a "Veteran Sergeant", i.e. Veteran Squads and Relic Blades. But that's not exactly the same thing as we are discussing.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Surely you also reset the wargear of an upgraded model, take away any points spent on it, then start on where it says
"Wolf Scout Pack Leader may take X,Y,Z for A points"
Follow it downward in chronological order.

I would definitely be looking at this route. We do not have permission to carry over Wargear from before the upgrade to the new model profile. Of course, we do not have instructions to drop the Wargear, either.

Charistoph wrote:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
You're using logistics and Warhammer... moreover 40k... moreover Space Wolves?

Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

I can't model a Tactical Marine with a Multimelta from what comes in the box, it is still an option, though.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Same reason why there are some things a Vet Sergeant can take but there are others a Normal Sergeant cannot take.

I am curious on this one, can you name what? The only cases I can think of are cases where there is no "Sergeant" in the unit, but only a "Veteran Sergeant", i.e. Veteran Squads and Relic Blades. But that's not exactly the same thing as we are discussing.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Surely you also reset the wargear of an upgraded model, take away any points spent on it, then start on where it says
"Wolf Scout Pack Leader may take X,Y,Z for A points"
Follow it downward in chronological order.

I would definitely be looking at this route. We do not have permission to carry over Wargear from before the upgrade to the new model profile. Of course, we do not have instructions to drop the Wargear, either.

My post was poorly ordered.

The post I was responding to tried to use 'sense and logic in 40k', so I played their game using their logic, proving it won't work using their logic.

Relic Blades are one thing, but I don't have my codex with me at the moment.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:

Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

*looks in his Wolf Scout box* Then I guess I can't give ANY of my scouts a sniper rifle or a cloak by that logic, because I'm not seeing any of either one of those in here, much less enough to outfit a full minimum unit company of scouts... I actually don't see anything but the basic bolt pistol, either, so I guess if I want to use a plasma pistol, I have to magically pull it out of my rear end if I want them to have it, by your logic of "can't use anything but what's in the box." Umm... No Wolf Claws, which is an option for both the WGPL and one other unit. Hell *looks at the box* It's got five units, so I guess I can't use a full ten man company, either, by that logic, since I can only use what's in the box. All I see here is various model options for hands, feet, etc, a selection of identical bodies, head with and without helmets, bolt pistols, bolters, grenades... Yeah, no 'sniper rifles' or even 'stalker-patterned bolters' at all. Guess my entire unit has to be basic scouts by the "what's in the box" logic.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm arguing the following. Feel free to counter the points however you want.

1. Army List Entries provide us with a STARTING Unit Composition and a STARTING set of wargear for each model in the unit.
2. Army List Entries provide us with a list of options that we are told we can take for the unit and/or the models in the unit.
3. There is no rule requiring that we select the above options in any particular order. Top to bottom is an English language reading convention, but there is no actual requirement to select options from top to bottom. This is very similar to how restaurant menus work. The menus are printed in English, but there is no inherent requirement built into the English language that you must order dessert last.
Yep, there is no information that we must go downward.
4. Once an option has been selected that grants additional or different wargear beyond the STARTING wargear to a specific model and due to the permissive nature of the game, that model can be considered to have that piece of wargear unless some rule or other interaction specifically says otherwise.

Yep. Agreed so far. There is no information that we have to go downward when choosing options.

 Kriswall wrote:
5. There is no rule telling us that upgrading a model from one name and profile to another name and profile removes previously selected wargear options. I.e., there is nothing in the rules telling us to 'reset' the model back to the STARTING wargear of the new profile.

"They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
Doesn't that mean that the BRB considers them separate entries? It just didn't separate them. They are two separate entries. The Wolf Scout profile is not being 'translated' into a WGPL profile. The model is not being 'reset'. It is being replaced by the profile of a WGPL because they are separate entries. I don't see how you can understand the "but do not have a separate entry" to mean anything else. Please explain your reasoning.

 Kriswall wrote:
So, in the specific example of taking a Wolf Scout unit...

1. I select the Wolf Scouts Army List Entry from Codex: Space Wolves. Based on the listed Unit Composition, the starting number and type of models in the unit will be five Wolf Scouts. The listed Wargear tells us, among other things, that each Wolf Scout has Scout Armour and a Boltgun.

Yep

 Kriswall wrote:
2. Two of the options list are "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" and "Any Wolf Scout may replace his Boltgun with a Sniper Rifle".

3. Given that there is no rules requirement to take the options in order, I first decide to use the Sniper Rifle upgrade to replace the five Wolf Scouts' Boltguns with Sniper Rifles. I have taken a Wolf Scout only upgrade on Wolf Scouts. I subsequently use the option to upgrade one of these Wolf Scouts to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

4. The newly upgraded WGPL loses his Scout Armour as that is explicitly called out as being for "Wolf Scouts only" on the datasheet. Note that no other Wargear is listed as Wolf Scouts only. He also, presumably speaking, gains Power Armour as that is specifically called out as "Wolf Guard Pack Leader only". No other changes are made. The Sniper Rifle that the model having been upgraded to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader is currently holding is specifically NOT called out as being for Wolf Scouts only. Ergo, it is not.

Don't ignore "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.". Like I said before, the Wolf Scout isn't "losing" anything. It is being replaced by the profile of WGPL.
So you can consider the Wolf Scout datasheet to have the profiles of a Wolf Scout and a WGPL. This is shown in how they separated the Wolf Scout profile and the WGPL profile in the datasheet. They have Wolf Scout specific gear/special rules in parentheses. They have the WGPL specific gear in parentheses. And all communal wargear/special rules without parentheses. And the options for each are clearly differentiated. They are clearly two separate entries.

 Kriswall wrote:
For this to NOT work, you need to demonstrate, via rules citations, one of two things. You can either demonstrate that options must be taking in order, in which case the Sniper Rifle option is only available after the WGPL option. Otherwise, you can demonstrate that when a model is upgraded to a new name and profile, all of that model's wargear is removed and 'reset' to the starting wargear for the new profile. I'm unable to find rules evidence for either of these two scenarios.

There is one that you haven't addressed at all in multiple posts.
Please explain what you understand "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry." to mean.
In the Wolf Scouts datasheet. There is the profiles for Wolf Scouts and WGPL's. They are separate profile entries that the BRB didn't separate.
You will not find anything that says to 'reset' the Wolf Scout because it is no being 'reset'. They are entirely separate profiles with it's own wargear/special rules/options.

You can't pick and choose with a rule like this. If you take the stance that the Wolf Scout is 'transformed' to a WGPL, then you have to logically take the stance that the Wolf Scout's characteristic profile (WS, BS, Armor Sace, etc.) is also changed in this manner. That the Wolf Scout would get +1 to it's existing Attacks and -1 to it's armor save. That argument falls apart at "but do not have a separate entry". This clearly tells us that it is not 'translated' in that way but entered with a separate entry.

 Kriswall wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

Ridiculous logic is ridiculous. A VERY large number of options on datasheets can't be represented with what is provided in a single box. Many upgrades require the combination of multiple boxes or conversions.

So those saying yes are OK with Terminator Captains riding bikes?

"They have their own profile, but do not have a seperate entry."

...

I interpret this as meaning that a model like a WGPL will have it's own profile, separate and distinct from the Wolf Scout profile, but that I should not expect to find a Wolf Guard Pack Leader Army List Entry in Codex: Space Wolves.

Keep in mind that the profile, as defined in the datasheets explanation page of Codex: Space Wolves, is specifically referring only to the line with the model's name, weapon skill, ballistic skill, etc. It's #6 on the datasheet page... "Unit Profile: This section will show the profile of any models the unit can include."

I'm also not contesting this. WGPLs obviously have a different profile. They also have a different set of starting wargear... which is sort of irrelevant, as per the army list entry's unit composition, the unit will never start with a WGPL and per the options can never add a new model who is a WGPL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
So those saying yes are OK with Terminator Captains riding bikes?

Of course not. Per Codex: Space Marines we should "Note that these pieces of wargear [referring to the Bike and Terminator Armour] are mutually exclusive." We're told explicitly and unambiguously that a given model can't have both a Bike and Terminator Armour. That's what mutually exclusive means. There is no such wording in Codex: Space Wolves telling us that a WGPL can't ever have a Sniper Rifle.

 Kriswall wrote:
"They have their own profile, but do not have a seperate entry."

...

I interpret this as meaning that a model like a WGPL will have it's own profile, separate and distinct from the Wolf Scout profile, but that I should not expect to find a Wolf Guard Pack Leader Army List Entry in Codex: Space Wolves.

Keep in mind that the profile, as defined in the datasheets explanation page of Codex: Space Wolves, is specifically referring only to the line with the model's name, weapon skill, ballistic skill, etc. It's #6 on the datasheet page... "Unit Profile: This section will show the profile of any models the unit can include."

I'm also not contesting this. WGPLs obviously have a different profile. They also have a different set of starting wargear... which is sort of irrelevant, as per the army list entry's unit composition, the unit will never start with a WGPL and per the options can never add a new model who is a WGPL.

Ok. So you agree that they are separate. The Wolf Scouts will use the Wolf Scout profile. And the WGPL will use the WGPL profile.
The Wolf Scouts will source the Wolf Scout profile when determining starting gear, etc. And the WGPL will source the WGPL profile when detemining starting gear, etc.
By saying they are separate, how can you say that the WGPL was ever a Wolf Scout? They do not have any correlation besides the fact that they are in the same unit...
The Wolf Scout is never 'translated' to become the WGPL. The WGPL sources the WGPL profile. The WGPL does not source the Wolf Scout profile + transformation (+1A, -1 Armor Save, take away scout armor, give power armor, take away special rules, etc). We know this because the BRB tells us they are separate entries with their own profiles.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm also not contesting this. WGPLs obviously have a different profile. They also have a different set of starting wargear... which is sort of irrelevant, as per the army list entry's unit composition, the unit will never start with a WGPL and per the options can never add a new model who is a WGPL.

And how can you say that the Unit Composition never changes still? It says that the sections shows the composition before upgades have been taken. After upgrades are taken, the composition changes...
Not to mention the fact that you can add more Wolf Scouts to the unit. Thereby changing the composition again...

Rasko wrote:

Ok. So you agree that they are separate. The Wolf Scouts will use the Wolf Scout profile. And the WGPL will use the WGPL profile.
The Wolf Scouts will source the Wolf Scout profile when determining starting gear, etc. And the WGPL will source the WGPL profile when detemining starting gear, etc.
By saying they are separate, how can you say that the WGPL was ever a Wolf Scout? They do not have any correlation besides the fact that they are in the same unit...
The Wolf Scout is never 'translated' to become the WGPL. The WGPL sources the WGPL profile. The WGPL does not source the Wolf Scout profile + transformation (+1A, -1 Armor Save, take away scout armor, give power armor, take away special rules, etc). We know this because the BRB tells us they are separate entries with their own profiles.

There seems to be a disparity, at least in some people's opinions between a "separate profile", versus a "separate entry". A unit whose stats have increased and whose title has altered is NOT, necessarily, a completely different unit. I see nothing in the rules that says that, if I promote/upgrade a unit, he LOOSES any options he had to begin with.

This being versus having a completely separate entry in the manual. There is NOTHING anywhere in the SW codex describing the Wolf Guard Pack Leader, other than units showing him as a promotion to other units in that squad. If he's a completely separate ENTRY, then logically I should be using the gear list for the Wolf Guard entries, since in EVERY other gear listing for the WGPL has gear alterations that make his gear listing identical to the WG. The scout listing seems to be more of a typo than anything else, if this is the logic we're going to use. If he's a completely separate 'entry', we should be using the same gear listing for the unit every time. Otherwise, if we're using a different gear listing for each instance, then frankly, he would be nothing but an upgrade to the base, except as SPECIFICALLY noted (such as the Grey hunters marking that certain gear is taken away).