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Zarius wrote:
There seems to be a disparity, at least in some people's opinions between a "separate profile", versus a "separate entry". A unit whose stats have increased and whose title has altered is NOT, necessarily, a completely different unit. I see nothing in the rules that says that, if I promote/upgrade a unit, he LOOSES any options he had to begin with.

You have to get the idea of 'promoting' something out of your head. You aren't promoting anything. This isn't a military ladder of advancement. This is not IRL...
Like I said before, you aren't 'losing' anything when you upgrade to a WGPL. There is no transformation of existing profile.
To get a WGPL, you don't +1 to the existing attack of a Wolf Scout, you don't -1 to it's existing armor save. You are never taking the Wolf Scout and transforming/promoting him to match the profile of a WGPL.
We know this because of "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.". The BRB tells us that while it didn't separate them, we should consider them separate entries.
That quote directly contradicts the 'promotion' idea.
Unit Compositions do change. The WGPL will be a new entry to the unit with it's own wargear, special rules, etc. These things are all pointed out in the respective unit datasheet.

Zarius wrote:
This being versus having a completely separate entry in the manual. There is NOTHING anywhere in the SW codex describing the Wolf Guard Pack Leader, other than units showing him as a promotion to other units in that squad. If he's a completely separate ENTRY, then logically I should be using the gear list for the Wolf Guard entries, since in EVERY other gear listing for the WGPL has gear alterations that make his gear listing identical to the WG. The scout listing seems to be more of a typo than anything else, if this is the logic we're going to use.

There does not need to be an entry for WGPL in the codex because the codex has included one in every applicable unit.
I do not understand how you can then go from here to say that "logically" WGPL = Wolf Guard. There is nothing "logical" about that leap...
Not one person in this thread, including Kriswall, will argue that WGPL = Wolf Guard.
The time that it could have been a typo has long since passed. When the SW codex was first released, it did so with many mistakes (for example, the WGPL for Blood Claws had rage until the FAQ). These mistakes have all been FAQ'd. The WGPL for Scouts did not change.

Zarius wrote:
If he's a completely separate 'entry', we should be using the same gear listing for the unit every time. Otherwise, if we're using a different gear listing for each instance, then frankly, he would be nothing but an upgrade to the base, except as SPECIFICALLY noted (such as the Grey hunters marking that certain gear is taken away).

Like I said before, every unit has their own version of the WGPL. These WGPL's have their own upgrades. You can't say that all WGPL are the same.
Look at the WGPL for Grey Hunters. They can take Terminator Armor.
Look at the Wolf Guard. They can't take Terminator Armor.
Grey Hunter's WGPL =/= Wolf Scout's WGPL =/= Blood Claw's WGPL =/= Wolf Guard.

We should probably discuss some core game terms here.

Unit Composition is defined as the starting number of models and their types for any given army list entry. This starting number is written in stone and never changes for any given army list entry. Now, if you actually select a unit and add models to it, that particular unit's composition will obviously change from the army list entry's defined Unit Composition.

Profile refers to the line on an army list entry that shows a model's name, WS, BS, etc. The Wargear section is an entirely different part of the army list entry. It's connected in that it tells us what wargear any given model is equipped with, assuming no options have been selected. When we are instructed to use the WGPL profile, we're being told to use that WS, BS, etc... and not explicitly to replace or reverse any previously selected options.

Lastly, the change from Wolf Scout to Wolf Scout Pack Leader is absolutely a "promotion of sorts" in that it improves the model's grade from that of Wolf Scout to Wolf Scout Pack Leader. This is literally what the word "upgrade" means. You don't even have to look it up. An upgrade process ups the grade of something. It is absolutely transformative. We have an existing model that we can point at. It is a Wolf Scout. We choose an option. That same model is now a Wolf Scout Pack Leader.

 Kriswall wrote:
We should probably discuss some core game terms here.

Unit Composition is defined as the starting number of models and their types for any given army list entry. This starting number is written in stone and never changes for any given army list entry. Now, if you actually select a unit and add models to it, that particular unit's composition will obviously change from the army list entry's defined Unit Composition.

Profile refers to the line on an army list entry that shows a model's name, WS, BS, etc. The Wargear section is an entirely different part of the army list entry. It's connected in that it tells us what wargear any given model is equipped with, assuming no options have been selected. When we are instructed to use the WGPL profile, we're being told to use that WS, BS, etc... and not explicitly to replace or reverse any previously selected options.

Lastly, the change from Wolf Scout to Wolf Scout Pack Leader is absolutely a "promotion of sorts" in that it improves the model's grade from that of Wolf Scout to Wolf Scout Pack Leader. This is literally what the word "upgrade" means. You don't even have to look it up. An upgrade process ups the grade of something. It is absolutely transformative. We have an existing model that we can point at. It is a Wolf Scout. We choose an option. That same model is now a Wolf Scout Pack Leader.

"They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
This directly contradicts the 'transformation/promotion' theory. As you said, I agree the profile itself only refers to the characteristics. However, there is a second part to the quote. It says "but do not have a separate entry". This is important because it tells us to consider the WGPL a separate entry that hasn't been separated.
So what does a separate entry look like?
It would be

A WGPL does not "come" from a Wolf Scout. This is an entirely separate entry in the unit. If you choose to upgrade, the Unit Composition of Wolf Scouts would change to 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL.
You would refer to the Wolf Scouts entry to see starting gear, etc. And you would refer to the WGPL entry to see starting gear, etc.
Like Zarius, you are now using IRL terms of what upgrade means when it directly contradicts what the BRB tells us to do.
There is inherently two separate entries in the Wolf Scouts Datasheet. They just haven't been separated. They are not linked in any way besides the fact that they are both in the same unit. If you choose to upgrade one to a WGPL, you are choosing a separate entry that already exists in the Wolf Scouts Datasheet. There is no promotion/transformation of the existing Wolf Scout.

Look up upgrade in the dictionary. I genuinely don't think you know what it means. You have a model called Wolf Scout. Through a transformative process called "upgrade", that model is changed into a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. The model is not replaced. It is upgraded. It's grade improves.

I feel like you have a basic lack of understanding of some of the core terms here. It's unsurprising you don't understand my points.

You also keep confusing Unit Composition, which is a constant and unchanging data point on an Army List Entry with the composition of a particular unit youve chosen for an army list. Two different concepts.

 Kriswall wrote:
Look up upgrade in the dictionary. I genuinely don't think you know what it means. You have a model called Wolf Scout. Through a transformative process called "upgrade", that model is changed into a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. The model is not replaced. It is upgraded. It's grade improves.

I feel like you have a basic lack of understanding of some of the core terms here. It's unsurprising you don't understand my points.

It appears you lack a basic understanding of why dictionary definitions are frowned upon in this board. I'll show you,
This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something (such as a seat on an airplane or a room in a hotel) that is better than what you had originally

And this is precisely why this Board does not like using dictionary definitions as a counter argument.
Is it to make something existing better? Is it to get something new that is better than you originally had? Is it to get something more useful?
It could mean a transformative process if you consider upgrade to mean "-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements"
It could mean that you get something new altogether if you consider upgrade to mean "-to get something that is better than what you had originally"
Which is the right one? Have you actually bothered to look up the dictionary definition before telling me to? You would have known why that is a bad counter-argument if you did.

For Veterans/WGPL, the BRB says that "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
This implies that it is not a transformative process. Since it is not a transformative process, we can surmise that when the codex says upgrade, it means "-to get something that is better than what you had originally".
We know this because it tells us to consider them a separate entry that is not separated. Separated entries are not influenced by other entries. You can't "link" the Wolf Scout to the WGPL.

 Kriswall wrote:
You also keep confusing Unit Composition, which is a constant and unchanging data point on an Army List Entry with the composition of a particular unit youve chosen for an army list. Two different concepts.

You are the one confusing Unit Composition. This is exactly what it says.
"Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken."

The Unit Composition shows the basic unit before upgrades are taken.
After upgrades are taken, it is still the Unit Composition. They are not two different concepts.

You aren't actually upgrading the Wolf Scout model to a WGPL model as if it were a level-up promotion on the model. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons.

You are upgrading the unit from one composed of 5 Wolf Scouts to a unit composed of 4 Wolf Scouts and a WGPL.

So you swap the Wolf Scout model and profile for a WGPL model and profile.

col_impact wrote:
You aren't actually upgrading the Wolf Scout model to a WGPL model as if it were a level-up promotion on the model. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons.

You are upgrading the unit from one composed of 5 Wolf Scouts to a unit composed of 4 Wolf Scouts and a WGPL.

So you swap the Wolf Scout model and profile for a WGPL model and profile.

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

I don't play Dungeons and Dragons. I have no idea how that system works. This also isn't Monopoly or Russian Roulette. Presumably different games have different rules. Let's focus on this game.

If it's a unit upgrade, why is it something that a single, specific model has to choose. It's a model upgrade. Not rocket science.

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout..."

Sure looks like it's referring to an upgrade for a model and not for the unit.

You are upgrading one MODEL in a unit composed of 5 Wolf Scouts to a WGPL, thus resulting in a unit composed of 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL. At no point are you actually upgrading the unit. If the upgrade option read something like "the unit may be upgraded to contain a WGPL... XXpts", then I would agree. It doesn't. It's clearly an upgrade for a specific model. You need to be more precise.

So, then, by your diffinition of "Unit composition", I can NEVER take a WGPL, because you say it "will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken." which indicates that I CAN'T take upgrades,by the very nature of the term.

WGPL is CLEARLY classified AS an UPGRADE, because that's what the rule says. Literally, one scout may UPGRADE to a WGPL. The word is inherent. And, as Kriswall says, the DEFINITION of the word upgrade, as it is not specifically defined in the rules manuals anywhere, is that the unit IS changing type. If you could provide an argument here that wasn't "It's not an upgrade", even though the bloody manual SAYS it's EXCATLY that, I'd be happy to accept it. But, at least thus far, your ONLY argument against a WGPL taking a scout rifle is to use definitions that directly contradict the inherent meanings of what is written.

"If it's not written down, it's not legal." Well, that indicates the other way around... We SHOULD Be following what is written down, right? Well, what is written down is that one of my scouts WOULD, in fact, be transformed into a WGPL through the upgrade process. THAT is what is actually written down. So, Rasko, do you have any arguments that don't contradict themselves, or are we just arguing with a republican here?

Zarius wrote:
So, then, by your diffinition of "Unit composition", I can NEVER take a WGPL, because you say it "will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken." which indicates that I CAN'T take upgrades,by the very nature of the term.

WGPL is CLEARLY classified AS an UPGRADE, because that's what the rule says. Literally, one scout may UPGRADE to a WGPL. The word is inherent. And, as Kriswall says, the DEFINITION of the word upgrade, as it is not specifically defined in the rules manuals anywhere, is that the unit IS changing type. If you could provide an argument here that wasn't "It's not an upgrade", even though the bloody manual SAYS it's EXCATLY that, I'd be happy to accept it. But, at least thus far, your ONLY argument against a WGPL taking a scout rifle is to use definitions that directly contradict the inherent meanings of what is written.

"If it's not written down, it's not legal." Well, that indicates the other way around... We SHOULD Be following what is written down, right? Well, what is written down is that one of my scouts WOULD, in fact, be transformed into a WGPL through the upgrade process. THAT is what is actually written down. So, Rasko, do you have any arguments that don't contradict themselves, or are we just arguing with a republican here?

You can absolutely take upgrades. UNIT COMPOSITION gives you the starting state BEFORE any upgrades. If I decide to take a Wolf Scouts Unit in my army and add a couple of Wolf Scouts, give them some Wargear and upgrade one to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader... the UNIT COMPOSITION for the Wolf Scouts Army List Entry is STILL going to be 5 Wolf Scouts, because the game term "UNIT COMPOSITION" refers specifically to the starting state. The composition of the unit you've taken for your army list obviously changes during your selection process and go beyond the starting state, or "Army List Entry Unit Composition".

You dont purchase in an order you list is made simultaneously, so if you by a sniper for your wolf scout then upgrade him to a wolf pack leader, he no longer fit the perimeters for the sniper.

it not like you by all weapons first then buying all upgrades first, followed by all transports, you buy the units and gear and all at the same time.

THERE IS NO INT. FOR LIST BUILDING!!!

 btgrimaldus wrote:
You dont purchase in an order you list is made simultaneously, so if you by a sniper for your wolf scout then upgrade him to a wolf pack leader, he no longer fit the perimeters for the sniper.

it not like you by all weapons first then buying all upgrades first, followed by all transports, you buy the units and gear and all at the same time.

THERE IS NO INT. FOR LIST BUILDING!!!

There literally has to be, or else some options can never be taken.

One common example is that Biker Marines are allowed to take Special Weapons, but must first swap Bolt Pistol for Chainsword (or is it Chainsword for Bolt Pistol?) before they have the necessary Wargear to make the second swap. Also, Power Armoured models that have the option for Terminator Armour must first take the Terminator option before being able to 'unlock' options that are only available to Terminator armoured models.

Again, choosing options MUST be sequential. If all options are taken simultaneously, the entire process falls apart and many options can never be taken.

No guy you thinking literally linear. so lets some this up for you to understand, if a wolf scout can have a sniper and then you upgrade him to a wolf leader, he no longer is a wolf scout (KEY WORD) but a wolf pack leader (KEY WORD) in a wolf scout squad. He would no longer meet the perimeters for the sniper if we are going to entertain your logic, you would then have a illegal item purchase and would have to drop it. If however it said any model my take a sniper then by all means go ahead and purchase him the sniper.

If we build a list with your logic, a CSM can purchase a melta and then be upgraded to a champion and have a melta champ.


Wait lets do it this way, I'm going to purchase/upgrade a CSM champion give him a powerfist then then down grade him so he may keep the power fist and then upgrade a different CSM to do the same thing. Hey i can have a unit of CSM powerfists.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
No guy you thinking literally linear. so lets some this up for you to understand, if a wolf scout can have a sniper and then you upgrade him to a wolf leader, he no longer is a wolf scout (KEY WORD) but a wolf pack leader (KEY WORD) in a wolf scout squad. He would no longer meet the perimeters for the sniper if we are going to entertain your logic, you would then have a illegal item purchase and would have to drop it. If however it said any model my take a sniper then by all means go ahead and purchase him the sniper.

OK, so by strict adherence to your own logic, can you explain how we take the Pack Leader upgrade?

The option to upgrade is specific to Wolf Scouts, and the moment he takes the upgrade, the model is no longer a Scout, and is thus ineligible to select the Pack Leader upgrade he just selected. Is there something magical that makes character upgrades work, or is this problem just a result of an inconsistent and unsustainable interpretation of how the rules work?

 btgrimaldus wrote:
No guy you thinking literally linear. so lets some this up for you to understand, if a wolf scout can have a sniper and then you upgrade him to a wolf leader, he no longer is a wolf scout (KEY WORD) but a wolf pack leader (KEY WORD) in a wolf scout squad. He would no longer meet the perimeters for the sniper if we are going to entertain your logic, you would then have a illegal item purchase and would have to drop it. If however it said any model my take a sniper then by all means go ahead and purchase him the sniper.

If we build a list with your logic, a CSM can purchase a melta and then be upgraded to a champion and have a melta champ.


Wait lets do it this way, I'm going to purchase/upgrade a CSM champion give him a powerfist then then down grade him so he may keep the power fist and then upgrade a different CSM to do the same thing. Hey i can have a unit of CSM powerfists.

Except that there's no rules to purchase a downgrade. There''s literally no rule for that. However, your logic with the Chaos Champion with a melta because it was there before his upgrade IS perfectly sound. Again, he had that option chosen prior to the upgrade. I see no issues. This seems perfectly valid.

On the other hand, if all upgrades are simultaneous, rather than chosen, then how would you first take the WGPL upgrade and THEN take the Meltabomb option for him, that's only available to a WGPL? Going with the computer science allegory, the check for meltabombs on the 'simultaneous upgrades' theory would fail every time because the entry for "is WGPL?" doesn't change from no to yes until AFTER the checks are made. This means that, when the Meltabomb check is done, the "is WGPL" is still 'no' until AFTER both have been checked. You want to use computer logic, that's what the computer logic analogy gets you. Both are checked at the SAME time, and don't change until AFTER the check is completed. No rechecks afterwards.

Im not even bothering with this bend the rules as you wish people, its is not worth the time.

The rules also don't SAY that you REPLACE the unit. Nothing says "may replace one scout unit with a WGPL." I'm not trying to bend the rules here, I'm trying to find out what the ACTUAL rules ACTUALLY say, or it there ISN'T actually true specification. From everything I'm hearing, there ISN'T actually true specification, and I'll need to check with the group I'll be playing with to get a consensus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, frankly, I like playing devil's advocate. It's rather entertaining when you have to spend 9 hours a day at a computer.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Did you have a point? Just curious. I don't think anyone is contesting what an option is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zarius wrote:
The rules also don't SAY that you REPLACE the unit. Nothing says "may replace one scout unit with a WGPL." I'm not trying to bend the rules here, I'm trying to find out what the ACTUAL rules ACTUALLY say, or it there ISN'T actually true specification. From everything I'm hearing, there ISN'T actually true specification, and I'll need to check with the group I'll be playing with to get a consensus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, frankly, I like playing devil's advocate. It's rather entertaining when you have to spend 9 hours a day at a computer.

Amen, brother. I also sit in front of a computer all day. Bickering with internet trolls who can barely spell or reason is endlessly entertaining.

I think, ultimately, the rules don't actually have enough to say. There is a grey area. One of two things is happening.

Thing #1 - Options can be selected in any order. If this is the case, you can take a Sniper Rifle and then upgrade to WGPL, which would result in a WGPL with a Sniper Rifle.

Thing #2 - Options must be selected in top to bottom order. If this is the case, the whole argument is moot as the Wolf Scout would have already upgraded to a WGPL before being given the option to take a Sniper Rifle. You would not be able to make a WGPL with a Sniper Rifle.

The problem is that the rules give us no guidance. They simply give us an unordered list (i.e. a bulleted list instead of a numbered list) and tell us that we can choose from these options. My inclination is that the authors probably intend for us to pick from top to bottom, but have never said this explicitly. The rules should allow either option.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Did you have a point? Just curious. I don't think anyone is contesting what an option is.

You are not following the rules for what an Option is.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Did you have a point? Just curious. I don't think anyone is contesting what an option is.

You are not following the rules for what an Option is.

Care to explain? You're being incredibly vague. How specifically am I not following the rules.

Is it when I have one of my Wolf Scout models take the upgrade allowing a Wolf Scout to swap his Bolter for a Sniper Rifle?

Or is it when I have one of my Wolf Scout models take the upgrade allowing a Wolf Scout to upgrade to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader?

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Did you have a point? Just curious. I don't think anyone is contesting what an option is.

You are not following the rules for what an Option is.

I add sniper rifle for one point, loosing my Boltgun. I add cloak for two points. Then I add upgrade to WGPL for 10 points. Then I add meltabombs for five points. Then I add Plasma pistol (or thunder hammer, yummy), sacrificing my Boltpistol for 10 (or 30) points. This is a series of OPTIONS, which I have paid for. You've only quoted the rule that let's me do this, not any rules that state that this is an option list/order I can't do.

When the Wolf Scout is upgraded to a WPGL, it's the unit that is upgraded.

col_impact wrote:
When the Wolf Scout is upgraded to a WPGL, it's the unit that is upgraded.

Please cite rules supporting your reasoning for this. The text of the option says that one "Wolf Scout may be upgraded". It sure looks like it's the Wolf Scout model that's being upgraded. It does not say that the unit is being upgraded. The rules don't support your statement.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:
When the Wolf Scout is upgraded to a WPGL, it's the unit that is upgraded.

Please cite rules supporting your reasoning for this. The text of the option says that one "Wolf Scout may be upgraded". It sure looks like it's the Wolf Scout model that's being upgraded. It does not say that the unit is being upgraded. The rules don't support your statement.

Are you using the Options? If you are then you are obeying this rule . . .



It does not say this



When the Wolf Scout is upgraded to a WPGL, it's the unit that is upgraded.

You are not adding upgrades to the model. You are adding upgrades to the unit.

And the unit already has a scout rifle when upgraded. The SCOUT is upgraded to WGPL, already having a scout. Can you cite any rules that state that an upgrade resets the model to factory default?

Zarius wrote:
And the unit already has a scout rifle when upgraded. The SCOUT is upgraded to WGPL, already having a scout. Can you cite any rules that state that an upgrade resets the model to factory default?

The unit no longer has that scout. The unit now has a WGPL.

Which was UPGRADE from a scout, already having a sniper rifle.

Zarius wrote:
Which was UPGRADE from a scout, already having a sniper rifle.

The unit no longer has that scout with the sniper rifle. The unit has been upgraded to a WGPL.

Then the answer is "No, I don't have a rule that says that the unit can not keep previously taken upgrades, but there also is not one that specifically allows it. You should discuss this with your group and see what they think, because I'm just going to keep badgering you until I either get bored or you agree with me out of frustration."

Badger all you want, the rules are on my side.