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Like I said Zarius this is a lost cause just never play these people and let them cheat cause they clearly need to so bad to win that they are going this far with it.


Just look at their bike riding termi, with a sniper, thats part of a scout squad, and shoot it with a vindicator.

From there we discern whether he could take gear like a scout sniper would.


Which would be pointless, he's in Power Armour, you mightaswell have the whole thing as scouts and then pour your points and frustration into another unit.

The option itself specifically says that ONE scout unit can take it. I would like it if you would explain to me HOW I would take the upgrade and apply it to a UNIT without applying it to a specific MODEL in that unit. I can't upgrade a scout by designating the WHOLE unit for the upgrade, because I still have to designate a specific model that receives the upgrade.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
Like I said Zarius this is a lost cause just never play these people and let them cheat cause they clearly need to so bad to win that they are going this far with it.


Just look at their bike riding termi, with a sniper, thats part of a scout squad, and shoot it with a vindicator.

Please don't imply that I'm a cheater. You don't know me and you've never played me. I might have the highest sportsmanship of anyone you've ever met. Let's keep this civil and not resort to name calling. It's the hallmark of a small mind.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
From there we discern whether he could take gear like a scout sniper would.


Which would be pointless, he's in Power Armour, you mightaswell have the whole thing as scouts and then pour your points and frustration into another unit.

How is the fact that he's in Power Armour make this pointless? Is it because Games Workshop doesn't make a Power Armoured Marine model with a Sniper Rifle? Oh wait, they do...

Zarius wrote:
The option itself specifically says that ONE scout unit can take it. I would like it if you would explain to me HOW I would take the upgrade and apply it to a UNIT without applying it to a specific MODEL in that unit. I can't upgrade a scout by designating the WHOLE unit for the upgrade, because I still have to designate a specific model that receives the upgrade.

The rules tell us that Options are unit upgrades.

The unit is upgraded by switching out a scout model for a WGPL model and therewith "get something that is better than what you had originally"

The unit takes a "trade a scout for a WGPL" unit upgrade option.

 Kriswall wrote:

 btgrimaldus wrote:
Like I said Zarius this is a lost cause just never play these people and let them cheat cause they clearly need to so bad to win that they are going this far with it.


Just look at their bike riding termi, with a sniper, thats part of a scout squad, and shoot it with a vindicator.

Please don't imply that I'm a cheater. You don't know me and you've never played me. I might have the highest sportsmanship of anyone you've ever met. Let's keep this civil and not resort to name calling. It's the hallmark of a small mind.

I didn't say names, you sound like your guilty of something though. Plus you can be a nice person and still cheat. I'm just saying you know how they intended the rules to be, they are many ways to interpret a unit and its story in the game. but then your gonna say everyone interprets differently which is true.

So to settle this the only way i'd play you is if you used this model for you sniper wolf marine scout....http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660641.page#8061364

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

The unit was upgraded from a unit of 5 scouts to a unit of 4 scouts and a WPGL.

That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

 DeathReaper wrote:
That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

Page 4 would be a helpful read.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

The unit was upgraded from a unit of 5 scouts to a unit of 4 scouts and a WPGL.

That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

That scout model is no longer part of the unit. The unit has "gotten [a WPGL model] that is better than what [it] had originally".

Upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

FIRST OF ALL, if we want to call names, then I have to say that the ^#&%!*&(es) calling someone they've never played against and who is clearly just playing devil's advocate a cheater need to eat ^*&% and stick they're head(s) in a toilet. Just don't flush. -.-"

Second, I AGREE with Kriswall's logic, as shown by the fact that I've posted several comments of my OWN on par with his. Mind you, I've never played a game outside of me and my roommate, to learn the basics of the rules. But, from my view, given the precise wording of the rules, Kriswall's and my logic seems sound to me. So, never having played ANYONE, you want to call me a cheater, you little %$&##^%? Do you? Because it's REALLY %$*#!%$ hard to cheat at something that I've never actually played outside of a controlled learning environment before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, before anyone goes crying to mods, I filtered myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Smurf, I'd probably take the WGPL ANYWAYS, mostly because the Meltabomb will work against nearly anything, while the krak grenades hit a brick wall when you get to certain tanks.

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

The unit was upgraded from a unit of 5 scouts to a unit of 4 scouts and a WPGL.

That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

That scout model is no longer part of the unit. The unit has "gotten [a WPGL model] that is better than what [it] had originally".

Upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

Right, the scout model has been upgraded...

Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

The unit was upgraded from a unit of 5 scouts to a unit of 4 scouts and a WPGL.

That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

That scout model is no longer part of the unit. The unit has "gotten [a WPGL model] that is better than what [it] had originally".

Upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

Silly you. The rules say the unit is being upgraded.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

It will not say so. That's because it is a Unit change. Not a model change.

As Col said, it is a Unit upgrade. Not a Model upgrade.

Thank you, Reaper, that's a good example of what I'm trying to say.

col_impact wrote:

Silly you. The rules say the unit is being upgraded.

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

And so is the model...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

It will not say so. That's because it is a Unit change. Not a model change.

As Col said, it is a Unit upgrade. Not a Model upgrade.

Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Rasko, the actual RULE for the option says ""may upgrade one scout to Wolf Pack Guard Leader". That, in itself, is stating that the upgrade is to one MODEL, which you have to select, not to the unit itself. Just the one model IN the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The option is listed under the UNIT'S upgrades, and upgrading one model upgrades that unit, but the specific rule clearly states that it is for a specific MODEL.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Ok. It was poorly worded. I am used to talking to Zarius, so I assume certain things have been discussed.

What I meant by "it is not a model change", is that the specific Wolf Scout model is not being "promoted, through a transformative process" to a WGPL.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Silly you. The rules say the unit is being upgraded.

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

And so is the model...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

It will not say so. That's because it is a Unit change. Not a model change.

As Col said, it is a Unit upgrade. Not a Model upgrade.

Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Do you have a rule that says its a model upgrade?

I have a rule that says its a unit upgrade.


The unit upgrade is accomplished by getting a WPGL that is better than the Scout the unit had originally.

Upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

Sure. ONE scout is a model, not a whole unit. This is as designated by the fact that the UNIT is comprised of "5 Wolf Scouts", with option to add 5 more Wolf Scout models. If it was a UNIT change, it would be logical to word it "may swap one scout for a WGPL", not upgrade. THAT would be a unit-only change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, anything that improves the functionality of a single model is, inherently, a unit upgrade, as well, because it improves the functionality of the whole unit.

But here's an example of a Unit upgrade:
"All Wolf Scouts in the unit may take camo cloaks…2 pts/model"
THAT is an upgrade that applies to the whole unit.

Why does it need to say "may swap one scout for a WGPL"?
It already says "may upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL".
It is the same thing.

How do we know that upgrade means swap or any equivalent?

The Unit is upgraded from 5 Wolf Scouts to 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL.

By specifically designating "one scout" anything, it's clearly a model upgrade because you aren't required (or can't, depending on the rule) to do it to everyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because by saying that you would SWAP, that indicates a UNIT change, not a MODEL change by "upgrade."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, and like I said, ANYTHING that you add to a model is, itself, an upgrade to the unit itself. You upgrade one thing, you upgrade the whole group, even if every thing in that group doesn't get the same upgrade. It would only be a UNIT upgrade if, like the Cloaks, you had to take it on more than one unit to take it on ANY unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A model upgrade is inherently a unit upgrade, because a model is inherently part of a unit (the only exceptions being Independent Characters, because their gear list is COMPLETELY separate, as a solo trooper. But a Unit upgrade is not, necessarily an upgrade to a specific model, but to everything that qualifies withIN the unit.

Basically, a model upgrade would be a SUBclassification of a unit upgrade, being targeted at only one model at a time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here, slightly different approach to it. Let's say I take upgrades for a Lone Wolf. Unit comp, 1 Lone Wolf. Does that qualify as a Unit Upgrade or a Model Upgrade? No looking at the rules, just answer based off of logic.

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Ok. It was poorly worded. I am used to talking to Zarius, so I assume certain things have been discussed.

What I meant by "it is not a model change", is that the specific Wolf Scout model is not being "promoted, through a transformative process" to a WGPL.

Except it is, because that is what upgrade means.

col_impact wrote:
Do you have a rule that says its a model upgrade?

Yes, I already posted it...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

A Wolf Scout is a model.

Actually, "swap" and "upgrade" would largely be synonymous to the end result.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Topic:
It is both a model and a unit upgrade. I seriously do not see how or why it needs to be just one of these cases.

Unit Compososition lists "the number and type of models that form the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken." - Datasheet Legend.

So, the Wolf Scout is a model. If it is upgraded, it is a model upgrade.

The ability to upgrade the Wolf Scout is in the Options section. The Options list the upgrades for the unit, therefore it is also a unit upgrade.

There is no general rule stating that the Wolf Scout Pack Leader loses any Wargear in the upgrade, however, there is nothing states that he keeps it and is not just presented in the default Wargear as presented in the unit entry. I don't see it, either way, in the Wolf Scouts entry, but I don't have the Wulfen changes available to me at this time.

A single Wolf Scout is indeed a MODEL, not a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph, read that whole post. I actually specifically SAID that a model upgrade is a unit upgrade. So, by declaring something a model upgrade it automatically says that it's both. My point behind asking the question is that Rasko is saying that the Scout upgrade to WGPL ISN'T a model upgrade and that, thus, by taking the WPGL upgrade, you are inherently SWAPPING a model out completely for a different model, versus upgrading the model to a higher ranking one. The reasoning for THAT argument is about whether or a WPGL that was a scout and had a sniper rifle and cloak can keep his old gear on upgrade or not. The rule for the upgrade specifies ONE Wolf Scout, versus stating that the unit gains or changes out or swaps or otherwise actually REPLACES the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was using an example, however, that HAS to be a model upgrade because the unit only contains one model. Anything done TO the unit is done to the MODEL as well. I'm trying to drag people down the path of logic.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except it is, because that is what upgrade means.

You are now using dictionary definitions as a counter-argument.
You are right, it is one thing upgrade could mean.
It can also mean..

This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something that is better than what you had originally

Now you are at a logical impasse. There is two contradicting meanings to word 'upgrade'.
If you take it to mean promotion, you are completely right.
If you take it to mean get something better than what you had originally, you are completely wrong.

So what do we do in this situation. We have to find what the Codex means by 'upgrade' since there is two contradicting meanings.
We found one that means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Have you found one that means a promotion?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes, I already posted it...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

A Wolf Scout is a model.

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Doesn't this contradict that it is a model upgrade. It says that it is a unit upgrade.
You will upgrade from 5 Wolf Scouts to 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Ok. It was poorly worded. I am used to talking to Zarius, so I assume certain things have been discussed.

What I meant by "it is not a model change", is that the specific Wolf Scout model is not being "promoted, through a transformative process" to a WGPL.

Except it is, because that is what upgrade means.

Upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had".

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Do you have a rule that says its a model upgrade?

Yes, I already posted it...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

A Wolf Scout is a model.

Silly you. That's a unit upgrade. The unit is getting a WGPL which is better than the Scout it originally had.

col_impact wrote:

Zarius wrote:
Because the dictionary lists the definitions by commonality. To prevent what YOU are doing, which is simply choosing the definition you want to choose, you default to the first, or most common, definition. As such, the correct definition here would be

-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements

I make my scout better by including the WPGL improvement. First definition, thus correct one UNLESS context indicates otherwise. In this instance, context COULD be either the first OR the third (or second, to be honest), because they ALL could make sense here, thus, the first is defaulted.

The rules explicitly tell us this . . .

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

So the third definition is the one the BRB is using.

The burden is on you to prove otherwise.

Options are unit upgrades, not model upgrades. The third definition is the one that works in the context of unit upgrades.

I'm assuming when you say third definition, you are referring to this:

Rasko wrote:
This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something that is better than what you had originally

If so, is a generic CCW better than the pistol that certain marines come with, and can be replaced?

 Happyjew wrote:
If so, is a generic CCW better than the pistol that certain marines come with, and can be replaced?

I don't quite follow in how a CCW being better than a pistol will change anything...

Col_impact

First, stop calling people names, even if it's only 'silly." It makes you look like an donkey-cave, and nobody has yet (including this post) insulted you.
Second, if it's upgrading the whole unit, then why does it specify ONE scout gets an UPGRADE.

Rasko

Let's go for a logical approach here. If you want to upgrade a scout unit, are you a) going to ram some slob in there that has NO clue how to be stealthy or use a sniper rifle (which are two of the main functions of scouts, based on gear allotments) or b) take the BEST member of a scout unit and promote HIM, so that he can improve current scouts and teach new scouts? (I'll give you a hint, you don't have a group of ANYTHING lead by someone who doesn't know the first thing about that thing).