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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 DeathReaper wrote:
It is an upgrade to a model, it is also an upgrade to the unit...

It is both.

Please literally read what option says.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

You add a WGPL to the unit. Where do you get that it is a 'model' upgrade from that sentence?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not replace, Upgrade.

This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something that is better than what you had originally

It did follow the definition of upgrade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 03:17:19


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Rasko wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
It is an upgrade to a model, it is also an upgrade to the unit...

It is both.

Please literally read what option says.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

You add a WGPL to the unit. Where do you get that it is a 'model' upgrade from that sentence?


And you need to read the quote I provided out of the SW codex.

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader..."

and Codex trumps BRB when there is a conflict...

Therefore you do not add you upgrade.

P.S. the upgraded model is better than what you had originally, since it has a better LD score and more Attacks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 03:18:26


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator



Chicago, IL, USA

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 03:45:58


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Creeperman wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.


False. Any changes to models or weapons are all allowable and all just encapsulated as unit upgrades. Did you forget that units are comprised of models?

There is no overwriting. Where do you see that in the rules?

However, at the end of everything you need a legal unit composition with legal unit upgrades since it's all unit upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Rasko wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
It is an upgrade to a model, it is also an upgrade to the unit...

It is both.

Please literally read what option says.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

You add a WGPL to the unit. Where do you get that it is a 'model' upgrade from that sentence?


And you need to read the quote I provided out of the SW codex.

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader..."

and Codex trumps BRB when there is a conflict...

Therefore you do not add you upgrade.

P.S. the upgraded model is better than what you had originally, since it has a better LD score and more Attacks.


There is no conflict.

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader..." is a unit upgrade. Did you forget units are comprised of models?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 04:15:15


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Creeperman wrote:
As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

Huh????
Are you even on the same page as me?
When I say unit upgrades, I mean that the unit has been upgraded. Not that every single model in the unit was upgraded. How does that even make sense in the context of the argument?

It feels to me like you are purposely misinterpreting me...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 04:18:13


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

Huh????
Are you even on the same page as me?
When I say unit upgrades, I mean that the unit has been upgraded. Not that every single model in the unit was upgraded. How does that even make sense in the context of the argument?


He has forgotten that units are comprised of models.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator



Chicago, IL, USA

col_impact wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.


False. Any changes to models or weapons are all allowable and all just encapsulated as unit upgrades. Did you forget that units are comprised of models?

There is no overwriting. Where do you see that in the rules?

However, at the end of everything you need a legal unit composition with legal unit upgrades since it's all unit upgrades.

Your inconsistency is staggering. I am having an extraordinarily difficult time identifying your position and following your reasoning when you keep reversing yourself.

Once again you're apparently trying to tell me upgrades are unit-based, except as they're applied to models, but they're definitely not both because reasons. Which is it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

Huh????
Are you even on the same page as me?
When I say unit upgrades, I mean that the unit has been upgraded. Not that every single model in the unit was upgraded. How does that even make sense in the context of the argument?

It feels to me like you are purposely misinterpreting me...

You claim that upgrades are only applied to units, not to models. Correct?

If so, how is the model accessing the upgraded wargear without itself being de facto upgraded? If not, then I'm lost as to what argument you're actually trying to advance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 04:29:28


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's simple. Per the Options rule any option is a unit upgrade. If a model replaces its weapon its a unit upgrade. If a model is replaced for a sergeant model its a unit upgrade.

The Options sections lists all the upgrades you add to the unit.

So you add all the options you want and finalize the composition of the unit.

Simple.

RAW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 05:09:54


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

How does that mean anything else than the unit...

Zarius wrote:
Conventions of the English language therefore dictate that you use the FIRST definition, as the most commonly used one.

No it doesn't... Where is this "life" rulebook you have. I would like to read it.


Well, to start with, Elementary English... Middle School English... High School English... College English... College composition... College technical writing... By the way, EACH of these was at a different school, and several of them in different STATES, so it's not just one tiny place that thinks this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I can see Creeperman's point. His point is that Rasko keeps saying that all upgrades (Since there are apparently no Model upgrades) Unit only. Which means that, basically, all of the sniper rifles, camo cloaks, the WGPL's power armor, any plasma or melta weapons taken... are all sitting in a jeep, because they were given to the UNIT, but not not to a given MODEL because, Col, you've pointed out the right thing, but the wrong target. Rasko's logic has forgotten that the units are comprised of models.

Further, Col, that's our point. The RAW IS that the model UPGRADES, not that the model is REPLACED. The RAW states nowhere that a unit receiving an upgrade is REPLACED. NOWHERE does either the Codex or the BRB state that the words "upgrade" and "replace" are synonyms. Now, that said, several pieces of gear ARE replaced to DO this upgrade. But nowhere in the RAW in either the core manual or the SW expansion codex does it say that the WHOLE unit is replaced.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 05:30:46


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Creeperman wrote:
You claim that upgrades are only applied to units, not to models. Correct?

If so, how is the model accessing the upgraded wargear without itself being de facto upgraded? If not, then I'm lost as to what argument you're actually trying to advance.

I will assume that we misunderstood each other, and that this is genuine, to explain myself...
I'll try to do it in the most clear way possible.

What does the Codex mean when it says "upgrade"? Does it mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'? "Upgrade" can mean both of these things. There is an impasse of logic here. We can't move on without knowing which one the Codex means by "upgrade". It is not something that you can pick and choose to mean whatever you like. This goes for both sides of the argument. We can't choose the definition to fit our needs. Since it can mean both things, which lead to directly contradicting paths, we have to find what the Codex means by "upgrade".
Do you agree so far? "Upgrade" can literally both mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'. Which lead to opposite interpretations.
What does the codex mean when it says "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL". The question we are trying to figure out is, does it mean 'promote' or 'replace'.
So which one does it mean?

There is a sentence that has been repeated quite often.
•Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
We find some information here on how to proceed. It wants us to add upgrades to the unit. It does not say "add to the model". Which naturally means that it is not a promotion of an existing model. The unit has been upgraded. It went from 5 Wolf Scouts, to an upgrade of 4 Wolf Scouts and WGPL. It did not do this via a 'model promotion' method.
It has also been determined that Unit Compositions do change.
•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.
So everything falls into place.

I have looked but I could not find anything that gives us some information that shows, that the Codex wants 'upgrade' to mean 'promote'. Have you found something that helps us determine what the Codex means by "upgrade"? That is the argument.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 06:26:15


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




No, no, Rasko, we understood each other correctly. You keep saying that all of these upgrade options are UNIT upgrades. You won't concede that the upgrades are applied to the MODELS, and thus are not model upgrades. How can the model be upgraded, Rasko, if the upgrade is not a model upgrade?

By your logic, if I trade one of my Scouts' Bolter Rifles for a sniper rifle, that sniper rifle sits in my troop transport, AND my unit is out his bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it upgrades the MODEL, then it's a MODEL upgrade. Other wise the gear sits in the transport and does nothing, by your logic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 05:38:00


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Fortunately, I did not do it for you Zarius. As you clearly show that you still do not understand the argument at all...

I honestly think that even if every single person in this thread decided that you were wrong, you would still argue that you were right.
Zarius wrote:
But that means that, even though he's a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, and not a Scout, he can't take both a Melee weapon swap out and a Ranged swap out, because he doesn't have access to the Chain Sword, even though that IS what the unit would start with if he were a Wolf Guard (pack leader or otherwise). The ability to take a Wolf Claw or a Frost Axe AND a plasma pistol or a storm bolter, or even a combi- if you want the one-shot, make the Wolf Guard worth taking. The ability to shoot the crap out of the enemy and then smash a tank with a frost axe or to wade into a brood swarm is literally what makes them worth the cost. But by your logic, he wouldn't start with the gear that would allow him to do that. BUT, on the same coin, because he's not a scout, he can't have the sniper rifle and the cloak. What makes him worth taking? The extra plasma pistol? The meltabomb? Nice, but not worth the cost. Something that hurts me is only useful in rare instances, even when I CAN get within the 12" range. The meltabomb is nice against a tank, but it's only a little *edit* more *end edit* powerful than a Krak grenade. He literally isn't worth the cost without EITHER the ability to function effectively as a scout, OR the ability to take ALL of his normal options. So, if he can't function as either what he IS or what he WAS, what's the point in even including the option?

You are way too personally invested into seeing this work. You will do whatever it takes to make this work because otherwise, you think that the WGPL is useless.
From how you have argued so far and this quote, I can't see you coming to any other conclusion. Most times, you don't even bother to understand what is being said.
You are entirely fixated on making this work, no matter what. Not to mention the fact that you've already misunderstood your own side's argument many times...

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 06:36:59


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Rasko, you apparently missed the part where I said I was going to take him either way, because I was going to use my scouts as tank hunters. Meltabombs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, like I said before, NEW GUY... That was the "at a glance" opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You ALSO apparently missed the parts where I remarked that I was only pursuing this because it provides an excellent distraction while stuck in a chair at work for 9 hours a day, five days a week.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 06:44:29


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm sure everyone can use some distractions at work. If this helps you unwind a bit, I can appreciate that you have an outlet.

But you are in the rules section. While we are arguing the rules, why don't we all try to be logical.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 06:59:46


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..


Okay so you add and Upgrade. where is the issue?

The model is still upgraded.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 DeathReaper wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..


Okay so you add and Upgrade. where is the issue?

The model is still upgraded.


Sure. The unit is upgraded per the Options rule so there is no issue. You get a different model than the one you had originally.

A car is comprised of a car body and tires. When I upgrade the tires to all-weather tires I get different tires than I had originally.

A unit is comprised of models. When I upgrade the unit by taking the Option to upgrade the scout to a WPGL I get a different model than I had originally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 07:55:53


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

col_impact wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..


Okay so you add and Upgrade. where is the issue?

The model is still upgraded.


Sure. The unit is upgraded per the Options rule so there is no issue. You get a different model than the one you had originally.
Incorrect, the Scout is an upgraded model, still the same model as nothing says to replace a scout with the leader model.

A car is comprised of a car body and tires. When I upgrade the tires to all-weather tires I get different tires than I had originally.
Irrelevant, not sure what car tires has to do with 40k Rules.

A unit is comprised of models. When I upgrade the unit by taking the Option to upgrade the scout to a WPGL I get a different model than I had originally.

Incorrect. you do not replace the model, you upgrade him.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 DeathReaper wrote:
col_impact wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..


Okay so you add and Upgrade. where is the issue?

The model is still upgraded.


Sure. The unit is upgraded per the Options rule so there is no issue. You get a different model than the one you had originally.
Incorrect, the Scout is an upgraded model, still the same model as nothing says to replace a scout with the leader model.

A car is comprised of a car body and tires. When I upgrade the tires to all-weather tires I get different tires than I had originally.
Irrelevant, not sure what car tires has to do with 40k Rules.

A unit is comprised of models. When I upgrade the unit by taking the Option to upgrade the scout to a WPGL I get a different model than I had originally.

Incorrect. you do not replace the model, you upgrade him.


Incorrect. You are upgrading the unit per the rules.

Spoiler:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.


Also, upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally". So I get a WPGL model that is better than the Scout model I originally had.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 08:31:19


 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

 Kriswall wrote:
This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus. Just as there is no order of operations, there is also no requirement that all things have to be legal at the end. It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

...

Talk to your opponents and come up with a local consensus. You will not find one here.


5th post in this thread. Just sayin'. Might be time to let this die.

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator



Chicago, IL, USA

Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
You claim that upgrades are only applied to units, not to models. Correct?

If so, how is the model accessing the upgraded wargear without itself being de facto upgraded? If not, then I'm lost as to what argument you're actually trying to advance.

I will assume that we misunderstood each other, and that this is genuine, to explain myself...
I'll try to do it in the most clear way possible.

What does the Codex mean when it says "upgrade"? Does it mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'? "Upgrade" can mean both of these things. There is an impasse of logic here. We can't move on without knowing which one the Codex means by "upgrade". It is not something that you can pick and choose to mean whatever you like. This goes for both sides of the argument. We can't choose the definition to fit our needs. Since it can mean both things, which lead to directly contradicting paths, we have to find what the Codex means by "upgrade".
Do you agree so far? "Upgrade" can literally both mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'. Which lead to opposite interpretations.
What does the codex mean when it says "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL". The question we are trying to figure out is, does it mean 'promote' or 'replace'.
So which one does it mean?

There is a sentence that has been repeated quite often.
•Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
We find some information here on how to proceed. It wants us to add upgrades to the unit. It does not say "add to the model". Which naturally means that it is not a promotion of an existing model. The unit has been upgraded. It went from 5 Wolf Scouts, to an upgrade of 4 Wolf Scouts and WGPL. It did not do this via a 'model promotion' method.
It has also been determined that Unit Compositions do change.
•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.
So everything falls into place.

I have looked but I could not find anything that gives us some information that shows, that the Codex wants 'upgrade' to mean 'promote'. Have you found something that helps us determine what the Codex means by "upgrade"? That is the argument.

I'm following your argument so far. But let me ask this: When following that interpretation, what mechanism allows you to "replace" 5 bolter scouts with 5 sniper scouts and then "replace" those 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts, that does not also also permit you to then "replace" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Let's try it like this, Rasko. You keep saying that all of the upgrade options are unit upgrades, but not model upgrades. Given the fact that most of the upgrades SPECIFICALLY say that "one scout", or "upto two scouts", or "any scout", how do you NOT interpret that as a model upgrade?

ONE scout is a model, not a unit. I couldn't take a bolter swap to a plasma gun AND a Heavy weapon, and call that one model a unit. While adding a rocket launcher to a specific model DOES upgrade the unit, because the model is PART of the unit, and the unit, as a whole has access to that item. BUT what happens when the model dies? Does someone else pick up the plasma gun? No. Once you take the upgrade, the upgrade is inherent to the MODEL, not to the UNIT.

The same is true of the WGPL. Once your WPGL is removed as a casualty, you're out the WGPL. Nobody else pulls his body out of the power armour and slides in it to take over command. The upgrade, while improving the unit as a whole, is unique to a specific model within the unit, not general to the unit as a whole. You don't just designate a new WPGL when the current one dies. Therefore, logically, it IS a model-specific upgrade.

Here, let's use the BRB for an explanation:

Each UNIT can fire upto, and including, all of the different weapon TYPES that it has.

A MODEL, on the other paw, can only fire once during the Fire phase, regardless of how many guns it has.

Let's say you take a rocket launcher (singular Heavy Weapon selection) and two Plasma *Pistols* (typed gun by mistake). Now, you've equipped the plasma guns to two different units, but you decide to equip the rocket launcher to the same model as one of your Plasma Pistols.

Can you fire both plasma pistols and the rocket launcher in the same shooting phase at that point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I put it this way because if you take the Camo option, EVERYONE that's a Scout has the camo cloak. If half your unit dies, you still have the camo cloaks, no questions asked.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 17:58:27


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Creeperman wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
You claim that upgrades are only applied to units, not to models. Correct?

If so, how is the model accessing the upgraded wargear without itself being de facto upgraded? If not, then I'm lost as to what argument you're actually trying to advance.

I will assume that we misunderstood each other, and that this is genuine, to explain myself...
I'll try to do it in the most clear way possible.

What does the Codex mean when it says "upgrade"? Does it mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'? "Upgrade" can mean both of these things. There is an impasse of logic here. We can't move on without knowing which one the Codex means by "upgrade". It is not something that you can pick and choose to mean whatever you like. This goes for both sides of the argument. We can't choose the definition to fit our needs. Since it can mean both things, which lead to directly contradicting paths, we have to find what the Codex means by "upgrade".
Do you agree so far? "Upgrade" can literally both mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'. Which lead to opposite interpretations.
What does the codex mean when it says "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL". The question we are trying to figure out is, does it mean 'promote' or 'replace'.
So which one does it mean?

There is a sentence that has been repeated quite often.
•Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
We find some information here on how to proceed. It wants us to add upgrades to the unit. It does not say "add to the model". Which naturally means that it is not a promotion of an existing model. The unit has been upgraded. It went from 5 Wolf Scouts, to an upgrade of 4 Wolf Scouts and WGPL. It did not do this via a 'model promotion' method.
It has also been determined that Unit Compositions do change.
•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.
So everything falls into place.

I have looked but I could not find anything that gives us some information that shows, that the Codex wants 'upgrade' to mean 'promote'. Have you found something that helps us determine what the Codex means by "upgrade"? That is the argument.

I'm following your argument so far. But let me ask this: When following that interpretation, what mechanism allows you to "replace" 5 bolter scouts with 5 sniper scouts and then "replace" those 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts, that does not also also permit you to then "replace" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL?


The mechanism is the instructions in the Options section of the ALE which lists the unit upgrades that the unit may take.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Actually, Col, that's been the entire point of the last 7 pages of thread... Neither you nor rasko has provided definitive evidence to this point. The only difference between what Creeper said and what I've been saying is that he literally took out my word "upgrade" and replaced it with he word "replace." Outside of that, the sentiment is the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Rasko, as a point of order, I'd like to cite something for you:

•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.

The WGPL is an upgrade, right? By the basic definition of this sentence, then I can't TAKE WGPL or extra Scouts, because the unit composition is the BASIC unit, before upgrades. Both increased models AND the WGPL are upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the same token, my Wolf Lord can't take the Thunderwolf mount, Runic Armour, or wolf claws. It has to be a basic Wolf Lord, with bolter pistol and chain sword, because THOSE are upgrades as well.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 18:31:54


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Zarius wrote:
Let's try it like this, Rasko. You keep saying that all of the upgrade options are unit upgrades, but not model upgrades. Given the fact that most of the upgrades SPECIFICALLY say that "one scout", or "upto two scouts", or "any scout", how do you NOT interpret that as a model upgrade?

ONE scout is a model, not a unit. I couldn't take a bolter swap to a plasma gun AND a Heavy weapon, and call that one model a unit. While adding a rocket launcher to a specific model DOES upgrade the unit, because the model is PART of the unit, and the unit, as a whole has access to that item. BUT what happens when the model dies? Does someone else pick up the plasma gun? No. Once you take the upgrade, the upgrade is inherent to the MODEL, not to the UNIT.

The same is true of the WGPL. Once your WPGL is removed as a casualty, you're out the WGPL. Nobody else pulls his body out of the power armour and slides in it to take over command. The upgrade, while improving the unit as a whole, is unique to a specific model within the unit, not general to the unit as a whole. You don't just designate a new WPGL when the current one dies. Therefore, logically, it IS a model-specific upgrade.

Here, let's use the BRB for an explanation:

Each UNIT can fire upto, and including, all of the different weapon TYPES that it has.

A MODEL, on the other paw, can only fire once during the Fire phase, regardless of how many guns it has.

Let's say you take a rocket launcher (singular Heavy Weapon selection) and two Plasma *Pistols* (typed gun by mistake). Now, you've equipped the plasma guns to two different units, but you decide to equip the rocket launcher to the same model as one of your Plasma Pistols.

Can you fire both plasma pistols and the rocket launcher in the same shooting phase at that point?


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I put it this way because if you take the Camo option, EVERYONE that's a Scout has the camo cloak. If half your unit dies, you still have the camo cloaks, no questions asked.


The Options section lists the upgrades you may add to the unit and with that list the scope of what a legal unit is defined.

Consider this: I cannot have 2 WPGL in a unit of scouts. Why is that? Because that is not a legal unit upgrade. That is why it is NOT a model upgrade but actually a unit upgrade. The Options determines how a scout unit can be defined. A unit is a collection of models that are themselves equipped with weapons and wargear. What exactly is legal for the unit across all those levels is defined in the ALE based on a starting unit composition and allowable unit upgrades.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zarius wrote:
Actually, Col, that's been the entire point of the last 7 pages of thread... Neither you nor rasko has provided definitive evidence to this point. The only difference between what Creeper said and what I've been saying is that he literally took out my word "upgrade" and replaced it with he word "replace." Outside of that, the sentiment is the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Rasko, as a point of order, I'd like to cite something for you:

•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.

The WGPL is an upgrade, right? By the basic definition of this sentence, then I can't TAKE WGPL or extra Scouts, because the unit composition is the BASIC unit, before upgrades. Both increased models AND the WGPL are upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the same token, my Wolf Leader can't take the Thunderwolf mount, Runic Armour, or wolf claws. It has to be a basic Wolf Lord, with bolter pistol and chain sword, because THOSE are upgrades as well.


Don't be obtuse. The Options section lists the upgrades you may add to the unit and defines what is a legal unit composition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 18:32:24


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm not being obtuse. YOU keep saying use the rules AS WRITTEN. The rules AS WRIT are that the Unit Composition is BEFORE UPGRADES, so either i CAN'T take upgrades, because the definition of what a Unit Comp is specifically states this, or the unit comp only matters for the ten seconds that it takes to check stats.

Taking a Thunderwolf Mount changes my Wolf Lord to a Calvary unit, gives him stat and attack bonuses, and changes his movement speed. That's an upgrade. That is, in fact, clearly a MODEL upgrade, because it clearly changes how the model functions.

But the rules AS WRITTEN state that unit comp is BEFORE upgrades.

If the unit comp SPECIFICALLY states "before upgrades", that means that every time I check my unit, I loose my upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's not obtuse, that's RAW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 18:41:09


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Zarius wrote:


If the unit comp SPECIFICALLY states "before upgrades", that means that every time I check my unit, I loose my upgrades.


This is a ridiculous statement.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Then explain to me what the RAW means when it says "before upgrades." Because that's what it MEANS. Otherwise, there would have to be a different term to differentiate what the unit CURRENTLY has versus what the unit's defaults are. So, if my statement is ridiculous, then explain why, because I'm just being literal here. The RAW SAYS "before upgrades." I ASSUME that when it says BEFORE upgrades, it means BEFORE upgrades.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Zarius wrote:
Then explain to me what the RAW means when it says "before upgrades." Because that's what it MEANS. Otherwise, there would have to be a different term to differentiate what the unit CURRENTLY has versus what the unit's defaults are. So, if my statement is ridiculous, then explain why, because I'm just being literal here. The RAW SAYS "before upgrades." I ASSUME that when it says BEFORE upgrades, it means BEFORE upgrades.


unit composition + allowable unit upgrades in the Options section = legal unit composition

This is simple stuff. I am not sure why you are struggling with it.

The Army List Entry is a set of instructions for fielding a unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 19:10:22


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Then why the flaming crap lords do you people keep harping on the bloody exact meaning of Unit Composition? If you're willing to fudge the rules as written to incorporate terms that AREN'T in the manual, why are you being so obtuse about at least admitting that a gun purchase ALSO qualifies as a bloody Model Upgrade, since that should be obvious in the fact that you attach it to a specific bloody model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I'm struggling with is your OCD adherence to PART of the RAW, but then other parts going with the RAI.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 19:24:51


 
   
 
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