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Compared to +1 S/T 3+ armor ATSKNF CTs krak/frag grenades, special/heavy options, and a FREE RAZORBACK?

DAs aren't terrible, but I wouldn't call them better than Tac Marines. A side grade at best.

Traditio wrote:


I don't really have much sympathy for guard or the CSM. Both codices have the ability to spam high strength, low AP pie plates.

I will grant that the "base" CSM troop deserves a boost, though.

The ability to spam High Strength, low AP pie plates.

Ok.

Let's crack open the CSM codex.

I have...Defilers...and Vindicators. And both sit in Heavy Support. And unlike SMs I can't take a squadron of either. That there is our Ordnance. That is it.

Oh, wait, you're talking Plasma Cannons.

Ok.

We have Obliterators...also sitting in Heavy Support. And Helbrutes, who are Elites...just. you know, can't be taken in batches of 3 like SM Dreadnoughts.

So we have neither an abundance of pie or plates here since it all sits in Heavy Support and can't be squadroned.

Wait.

You're the same guy who tried to argue that Smash was 'good'.

DarkStarSabre wrote:The ability to spam High Strength, low AP pie plates.

Ok.

Let's crack open the CSM codex.

I have...Defilers...and Vindicators. And both sit in Heavy Support. And unlike SMs I can't take a squadron of either. That there is our Ordnance. That is it.

Oh, wait, you're talking Plasma Cannons.

Ok.

We have Obliterators...also sitting in Heavy Support. And Helbrutes, who are Elites...just. you know, can't be taken in batches of 3 like SM Dreadnoughts.

So we have neither an abundance of pie or plates here since it all sits in Heavy Support and can't be squadroned.

Wait.

I've since retracted my statement.

You're the same guy who tried to argue that Smash was 'good'.

Quote me. Where did I say that?

Bharring wrote:
Compared to +1 S/T 3+ armor ATSKNF CTs krak/frag grenades, special/heavy options, and a FREE RAZORBACK?

DAs aren't terrible, but I wouldn't call them better than Tac Marines. A side grade at best.

And yet, you'd be amazed at the number of Loyalist players who will still argue that their Tacticals are worse than Chaos Marines...

Actually, it would be an amusing fight to see who is the worst of the worst: Wyches vs. Genesneakers vs. Chaos Marines.

Aww I thought this thread was dead. I saw it at the bottom half of the page

Experiment 626 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Compared to +1 S/T 3+ armor ATSKNF CTs krak/frag grenades, special/heavy options, and a FREE RAZORBACK?

DAs aren't terrible, but I wouldn't call them better than Tac Marines. A side grade at best.

And yet, you'd be amazed at the number of Loyalist players who will still argue that their Tacticals are worse than Chaos Marines...

Actually, it would be an amusing fight to see who is the worst of the worst: Wyches vs. Genesneakers vs. Chaos Marines.

No, no. I fully agree with this.

Chaos marines are terrible and really need a boost.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Compared to +1 S/T 3+ armor ATSKNF CTs krak/frag grenades, special/heavy options, and a FREE RAZORBACK?

DAs aren't terrible, but I wouldn't call them better than Tac Marines. A side grade at best.

And yet, you'd be amazed at the number of Loyalist players who will still argue that their Tacticals are worse than Chaos Marines...

Actually, it would be an amusing fight to see who is the worst of the worst: Wyches vs. Genesneakers vs. Chaos Marines.

They are in a tie for last place - for costing too much and having no offense. The choas marine has more options - like an autocannon - and CCWs and cost less...pretty reasonable argument to say CSM are better than tacs. Plus their Rhinos are better because they have decent weapon upgrades.

Bharring wrote:
Yes, because Tacs are the worst troop in the game.

Except for Genestealers.
And Wyches.
Kroot.
Kalabites.
Ork Boys
Storm Guardians
Guardian Defenders
Dire Avengers
Rangers
PAGK
...

I mean, look at how short that list is!

Tac Marines made it to high levels in 7E before the new codex dropped (mostly as ObSec spam). They aren't typically top tier. There are things that kick their asses. But they are nowhere near the worst troops in the game.

(My first thought for that would be Wyches.)

I said they weren't good. Which they aren't. This is independent of their relation to other troops. Troops in general aren't good, and tac marines are no exception.

I just can't believe Bharring said that Dire Avengers were worse than Tactical Marines.

@Experiment 626, I'd put CSM Marines and Tactical Marines in the same boat of sucking. Tactical Marines get more for just one more point in terms of rules, but you can't kit them for ANY role whatsoever. That's what makes Grey Hunters SOOOOOOO much better than either choice.
The melee upgrade for Grey Hunters and CSM Marines is too high though. The Carcharodons Astra have that part right (1 point? Yes please!) but then they suffer from being Tactical Marines (so you can't double up on Melta and charge, which would be damn cool. Otherwise you're running 5 man squads, and that isn't exactly great).

If DAs are causing a coniption, ignore them. The list is still quite blunt.

(Also, forgot all the demon troops...)

The point was that the claims that Tacs were:
A) One of the worst
B) The worst
troops in the game is obviously untrue.

(On a related note, CSM are way better than Wyches, IMO!)

Wyches haven't existed since they removed all the Haywire Grenades, which was ALL they were used for.

So SM are the worst troop in the game because anything worse by definition doesn't exist?

So there are only a half dozen troops in the game?

It seems like it sometimes.

Scatterbikes
Firewarriors
Necron warriors

Bharring wrote:
So SM are the worst troop in the game because anything worse by definition doesn't exist?

So there are only a half dozen troops in the game?

Only a couple dozen in the game...

I think we're up to maybe 3? Hardly a couple dozen...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I just can't believe Bharring said that Dire Avengers were worse than Tactical Marines.

@Experiment 626, I'd put CSM Marines and Tactical Marines in the same boat of sucking. Tactical Marines get more for just one more point in terms of rules, but you can't kit them for ANY role whatsoever. That's what makes Grey Hunters SOOOOOOO much better than either choice.
The melee upgrade for Grey Hunters and CSM Marines is too high though. The Carcharodons Astra have that part right (1 point? Yes please!) but then they suffer from being Tactical Marines (so you can't double up on Melta and charge, which would be damn cool. Otherwise you're running 5 man squads, and that isn't exactly great).

I'd probably agree that they're close to even, but then Loyalists still get better MSU, Chapter Tactics, and can take Grav which is arguably among the best weapons in the entire game.
Under a GSF, Tacticals become a huge force multiplier. Basically they become what, a paltry 20pts 'tax' to get an Obsec Razorback, and can kit out a Special + matching Combi-weapon for at most 25pts?! That's almost criminal.

We get to pay through the nose for absolutely everything under the sun, can be broken/overrun in combat & have far fewer weapon options as only Meltas & Plasmas are worth considering.
Being able to double up on our Specials isn't very special when our basic Marine is so blatantly sub-par. (and Plaguemarines existing to boot...)

Things better than tacs make up well over 75% of the troops I actually see.

Bharring wrote:
I think we're up to maybe 3? Hardly a couple dozen...

2 dozen excluding those 3
Scouts
Tactical Marines
Crusaders
Grey Hunters
Blood Claws
Grey Knight Strike Squads
CSM
Cultists
Chosen
Possessed
Daemonettes
Plague bearers
Nurglings
Pink Horrors
Bloodletters
Wyches
Kabalites
Guardians
Dire Avengers
Harlequin troupes
Breacher Squads
Necron Immortals
Ork boyz
Grots

Wait, how are Wyches better than Tac squads?

Lols, Tradito, you remind me of Dman137 who kept trying to justify his army of scatbike wraith knight army not being over powered and imbalanced.

Bharring wrote:
Wait, how are Wyches better than Tac squads?

I think there's a diconnect here.
Tactical_Spam is listed the total number of Troops in the game, not the amount that's better than Tac Marines (otherwise Tac Marines would be better than Tac Marines).

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wait, how are Wyches better than Tac squads?

I think there's a diconnect here.
Tactical_Spam is listed the total number of Troops in the game, not the amount that's better than Tac Marines (otherwise Tac Marines would be better than Tac Marines).

I should have said Blood Angels tacticals. They get Heavy Flamers.

What about Death Korps Grenadier, same price as Stormtroopers without move through cover and deepstrike, but with WS4 and semi-fearless.

Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Dire Avengers

Fleet, bladestorm and +1 BS if you use the formation is terrible?

If we include formations, I guess the question is whether a couple of free special rules on a unit is more terrible or not than getting a free unit with a unit.

Tac marines are pretty damn good for the miniscule price you pay. They can kick ass to any other troop in the game point-to-point. And they have no ld problems.

And what's better, free + 1 bs or a freaking razorback.

Mass tactical armies can easilly win games due to many factors. Yep, they're not overly killy but they do the job. Other troops need so much investment to even do something on the table. There are a few exceptions ofc. Ork boyz can be effective from time to time. Conscripts are the best tarpit in the game. But marines are rock solid for just 14 pts for what they get.

Why don't you try other armie's options before complaining about tacticals and "bad" rhinos?

Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Dire Avengers

Fleet, bladestorm and +1 BS if you use the formation is terrible?

bad example, but look at everything else in that list and marines have them beat...

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I think we're up to maybe 3? Hardly a couple dozen...

2 dozen excluding those 3
Scouts
Tactical Marines
Crusaders
Grey Hunters
Blood Claws
Grey Knight Strike Squads
CSM
Cultists
Chosen
Possessed
Daemonettes
Plague bearers
Nurglings
Pink Horrors
Bloodletters
Wyches
Kabalites
Guardians
Dire Avengers
Harlequin troupes
Breacher Squads
Necron Immortals
Ork boyz
Grots

You are forgetting the OP Battle Sister Squad!

And Guard platoons and vets.

 Shandara wrote:
...

You are forgetting the OP Battle Sister Squad!