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Well if thats truly the case and the immigrants are indeed willing to work longer hours than its hard to say they're not more hard working.

That's true, but it's different from claiming the general populace is a bunch of workshy oiks.

When I was in the UK I spent ages prepping my lessons and working and doing extra stuff, because I lived on my own, had few friends initially and was scared of not keeping my position after my probation. I had nothing better to do with my time and a strong incentive to work my arse off. But it was not a pleasant experience and I can see how a teacher who has an actual social life, or especially kids or anyone in their life they need to take care of, could not have put the time in that I did. Those of my colleagues with kids were always extremely tired, and they paid so much in childcare it seemed to be barely worth their time to work.

Employers definitely prefered to hire young, single teachers like me for that reason. I cost less due to lower experience, and they can more easily pressure me into working a lot more.

By contrast, international schools seem to prefer to get an older teacher who will hang around - having a partner and kids is seen as a bonus.

I would not return to work in the UK as a teacher because of that aspect of the work culture. At least, I would not return to England. I'd consider working in Scotland.

From my limited experience of 2 years, Wales seemed to be like what you saw in England.

Yeah I've talked to a few Welsh teachers who confirmed that it's not much different to England.

Work culture in the UK seems to be more "american" than other EU countries I've been in.

There's a lot of discussion going on here. To chip into a few points:-

Notprop wrote:Professionally speaking there are a number of reasons why Spanish (and Portuguese) builders did not influx to the UK construction industry (believe me there were some), the biggest being there is a welfare system in Spain to support them but also barriers in the building methods they use and quality of the end product.

Conversely Polish builders (the example given) generally were to high standards on dry trades which the London market has had a high demand for. The same can be said for many national s from that part of Europe as well as India where there are allot of Carpenters coming from these days. I should also like to note that allot of Construction professionals are active in London not just labour. Much of the leg work in Architecture is done by Poles, ditto technical management.

This is very interesting. I think it especially highlights the point that our economy and wage level is so attractive to those from Eastern Europe, that it pulls in workers from all levels, not just the minimum wage or builders.

I have sites on which I have employed up to 400 men a day, you get more problems with some Brits than anyone else. It a cultural thing though, most of the Brits consider themselves Artisans or Specialists these days, want top rates to work but look for any reason not to. They start in the morning, set up and then go for breakfast, start on work for a few hours then look to leave early to beat the traffic.

I used to work in a hotel where half the staff were Polish. Lovely ladies (well, except one, who could cuss like a sailor ). One of them told me that over in Poland, a 10-12 hour shift was the norm, and the idea of a 'weekend' was unusual. Whereas here in Britain, there's been an extremely strong history of unionism and workers fighting to get a shorter work day, holiday leave, and so forth.

I think it is important also to look for reasons for notprops experiences, rather than trying fervently to discount them. He's a top notch bloke, I['ve met him a few times, and he's about as English as they come. He has no reason to be 'racist against', or discriminate against Brits on ethnic grounds. He even qualifies:-

Of course these are extreme examples as there is no shortage of decent Brit workers

So the logical thing to be doing here, is to be trying to sift through his valuable experiences, and come up with explanations as to why those are the experiences he has had as someone reasonably senior in that industry, rather than trying to disprove them. So for example, to take this:-

notprop wrote:We've run apprenticeship schemes for the unemployed where half the Brits stop after a few days because of early mornings, had to get rid of one chap who refused to wear a helmet the right way around?

I would speculate that for the unemployed schemes, from my girlfriend's experience a few years ago, these sorts of schemes are made compulsory by the Job Centre. Which inevitably means that whilst some people are willing, you do pull in those dregs who want nothing to do with actual work, and only show up to tick the box.

I suspect that a point Orlanth made in passing is also highly relevant here:-

Orlanth wrote:It comes about because you are comparing first generation migrants against an entire population. The especially workshy from Poland wont make the trip, a workshy Briton doesnt need to.

A sample of those who leave Poland are automatically going to be more motivated/dedicated than a random sample of Brits. It doesn't explain the whole story, but when combined with other reasons specified later by notprop indicates why British workers might seem like a worse hiring choice.

I think the below is also a highly relevant point, and ties in with the 'cultural aspect' referred to earlier:-

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:From my own experience, working a 40 hour work on minimum wage, in a boring/dull job, is not a good thing.

As soon as you get your pay, you lose tax and NI money, money for gas and electricity, transport costs, food costs, and rent/mortgage costs.

When that's been deducted, you are left with feth all

and you ask yourself: is it worth it? No...

Workers here in Britain tend to have something of a suspicion towards those with serious money, and a more generally cynical approach to life. I'd be lying if I said I worked my absolute hardest when I was paid minimum wage. I was never as bad the British lady I once heard say, 'This is a minimum wage job, they shouldn't expect me to do anything!', and always did everything I was hired for but I rarely went outside of my job description, and certainly never gave what might be deemed 110%. Whereas your average Pole already feels he is making excellent wages compared to what he'd make back home, so that's not that slight resentment of 'slaving all day for peanuts'.

So, in the position of an employer, you are statistically more likely to get a better worker by hiring a Pole than a local. That's fine. Perfectly good business sense. If we withdraw from the EU however, that labour supply will dry up, meaning that somebody local will get the job instead, which is better for the workforce of this country as a whole (someone off the unemployment register, capital stays in country, skills acquired remain local, etc). That could be considered to be a pro to leave the EU and a reason against immigration. It's not what's best for notprop necessarily, but it's better for everyone else!

 notprop wrote:
It makes you someone that won't stand out.

In my first month, the boss himself confided in me that the other guys on the team were "lazy fethers". I didn't have to do a whole lot to stand out from them.

I'm not knocking minimum wage work, and good luck to those earning good money, I'm making the point that's it's not easy running a house on that level of income. Once you've paid your bills, tax, travel, and food, you've hardly got two pennies to rub together.

It's not as if we're dinning at the Ritz every night or employing a chauffeur to drive me to work every day!

Remember Do_I_Not, you don't deserve a house.

Or anything pleasurable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well if thats truly the case and the immigrants are indeed willing to work longer hours than its hard to say they're not more hard working.

If hard work guaranteed success, my father would be the richest man in the galaxy.

Not having a go at you personally, but people have spun the hard work = success line for centuries, and 99.9% of the time, it's not true.

I once read about Welsh coal miners in the 1920s. Hard dangerous work, for long hours, and yet, not one of them became a millionaire.

Brave men every one of them, but poor men none the less.

Well whose to say you should be able to have a house on minimum wage? Or that it should be enough to support a family?

You don't have a right to not have roommates if you're only making minimum wage.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well whose to say you should be able to have a house on minimum wage? Or that it should be enough to support a family?

You don't have a right to not have roommates if you're only making minimum wage.

Actually, I'd argue that you do, otherwise minimum wage isn't high enough. There's not much point in having it if it doesn't allow you to pay for a basic level of existence. I'd class 'not having to share your room with a bunch of strangers' as basic.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well whose to say you should be able to have a house on minimum wage? Or that it should be enough to support a family?

You don't have a right to not have roommates if you're only making minimum wage.

Please tell tell me this is satire...

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Remember Do_I_Not, you don't deserve a house.

Or anything pleasurable.

As you know, it's fashionable for politicians in the UK to demonise the white, working class segment of the population.

I'm workshy, don't read the Guardian, I'm racist, hate foreigners, drink too much, and automatically believe anything that Nigel Farage or the Sun newspaper says

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Please tell tell me this is satire...

No, it's not.

See any thread about living/minimum wage etc.

People have an obsession with needing people who are poor to also suffer/have nothing nice in life.

 Ketara wrote:


So, in the position of an employer, you are statistically more likely to get a better worker by hiring a Pole than a local. That's fine. Perfectly good business sense. If we withdraw from the EU however, that labour supply will dry up, meaning that somebody local will get the job instead, which is better for the workforce of this country as a whole (someone off the unemployment register, capital stays in country, skills acquired remain local, etc). That could be considered to be a pro to leave the EU and a reason against immigration. It's not what's best for notprop necessarily, but it's better for everyone else!

There is no guarantee that the inflow of East Europeans will end after leaving the EU. Norway and Switzerland still accept the freedom of movement in their respective arrangements for access to the common market (although Switzerland is looking in to quotas). It's also possible that employers will lobby for fewer restrictions for non-EU workers if they lose access to their current cheap source of labor. You might end up with a greater inflow of commonwealth or non-western workers instead of East Europeans. Currently over just half the immigrants already come from outside the EU.

 Ketara wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well whose to say you should be able to have a house on minimum wage? Or that it should be enough to support a family?

You don't have a right to not have roommates if you're only making minimum wage.

Actually, I'd argue that you do, otherwise minimum wage isn't high enough. There's not much point in having it if it doesn't allow you to pay for a basic level of existence. I'd class 'not having to share your room with a bunch of strangers' as basic.

Basic existence doesn't exclude the fact you might only be able afford a cheap apartment, or pooling your resources with some roommates for a better apartment or a house might be necessary.

You definitely don't deserve an entire house on minimum wage. If you want nicer things you'll need to find a way to afford them, either by cutting costs with roommates or earning more money.

I'm assuming you'd have your own room of course(roommate doesn't mean you share a room over here, it means you share living space).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Please tell tell me this is satire...

No, it's not.

See any thread about living/minimum wage etc.

People have an obsession with needing people who are poor to also suffer/have nothing nice in life.

Oh yes, being forced to share an apartment or house with other people is totally an inhumane and insufferable human rights violation. Everyone deserves to live in their own 15,000 square foot home and minimum wage should totally accommodate this.

Having your own home is a UNIVERSAL human desire. Even the very poorest of people in third world African countries endeavor to have their own homes, even if they are made out of cardboard and corrugated iron. Saying "You're poor, therefore you shouldn't have your own home" is fething bizarre.

Poor, minimum wage workers exist, and with booming global populations exacerbated by mass immigration, there simply will never be enough well paying jobs for everyone. These need to be housed somehow, and for that we need affordable housing. What exactly is the alternative? Victorian workhouses? British shanty towns? Hot bunking?

God, its a bizarre moment when I, a UKIP voter, begins espousing Labour values.

Why can't that housing be in an apartment with individual bedrooms and shared living space?

That can easily be afforded on minimum wage if you have someone occupying each room. If you want your own place all to yourself you probably need to make more than minimum wage. Thats not an unreasonable situation.

It's not an unreasonable temporary situation.

The Western economic model has been built on the idea that the next generation should be better off, or at least equal to, the previous generation, in terms of wages, life expectancy, access to health services ete etc

Aside from the democratic arguments, my reason for leaving the EU is that wages and job opportunities across the EU, seem to be going downhill, especially in the clubmed countries.

I heard that over the last 30 years, the EU's share of global GDP has shrunk from 30% to around 17%. That, clearly, is not a model for economic success.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
It's not an unreasonable temporary situation.

Agreed. Temporary till you are earning more than minimum wage.

If you only ever work minimum wage, you can't expect to have more than a minimum wage living situation.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Actually, I'd argue that you do, otherwise minimum wage isn't high enough. There's not much point in having it if it doesn't allow you to pay for a basic level of existence. I'd class 'not having to share your room with a bunch of strangers' as basic.

Basic existence doesn't exclude the fact you might only be able afford a cheap apartment, or pooling your resources with some roommates for a better apartment or a house might be necessary.

You definitely don't deserve an entire house on minimum wage. If you want nicer things you'll need to find a way to afford them, either by cutting costs with roommates or earning more money.

I'm assuming you'd have your own room of course(roommate doesn't mean you share a room over here, it means you share living space).

Over here, a roomate is someone you literally share your bedroom with, either with separate beds or hotbunking. It's what a lot of Poles do to keep costs down. You'll have a converted living room with four mattresses and five Poles living in it. Their perspective is that ifg they're at work as much as possible, and keep costs as low as possible, they can go home with a nice wad of wonga. And I can't argue, I spent my Masters living on someone's couch for two hundred quid a month.

But I would argue minimum wage should provide for your own room at least.

Fair enough. I suppose the term is tripping people over.

I think the word you use is Flatmate or something yes?

Honestly when you said that roommate thing a lot of things made more sense.

A roommate to us is a literal roommate.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Fair enough. I suppose the term is tripping people over.

I think the word you use is Flatmate or something yes?

I don't mind sharing a apartment with a relative or good friend, but most people in Britain would be reluctant to share a apartment with total strangers.

Flatmate yeah.

Rent is very high in parts of the UK though. On a teachers wage most of my money was gone on rent each month in the red light district of a not-very-nice town outside london.

I got my education for free (cheers Ireland!), a British teacher these days would be coming out with big debt to pay off as well. It's not a great incentive. (Sorry for being so teaching focused, it's just what I can speak on with authority.)

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The Western economic model has been built on the idea that the next generation should be better off, or at least equal to, the previous generation, in terms of wages, life expectancy, access to health services ete etc

Aside from the democratic arguments, my reason for leaving the EU is that wages and job opportunities across the EU, seem to be going downhill, especially in the clubmed countries.

I heard that over the last 30 years, the EU's share of global GDP has shrunk from 30% to around 17%. That, clearly, is not a model for economic success.

Eh... perspectives man... perspectives:

Yeah. Here a roommate is anybody you share living space with. Be that you actually sleep in the same room or have your own bedroom in an apartment or house you share. Old fashioned people sometimes call their roommates house mates, but you basically gotta be an old geezer to use that language.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Honestly when you said that roommate thing a lot of things made more sense.

A roommate to us is a literal roommate.

O.o

I didn't realize that...