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2016/03/02 18:30:21
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Grey Templar Made in us wrote: Oh yes, being forced to share an apartment or house with other people is totally an inhumane and insufferable human rights violation. Everyone deserves to live in a 15,000 square foot home and minimum wage should totally accommodate this.
Grey Templar wrote: Why can't that housing be in an apartment with individual bedrooms and shared living space?
That can easily be afforded on minimum wage if you have someone occupying each room. If you want your own place all to yourself you probably need to make more than minimum wage. Thats not an unreasonable situation.
Please stop with the Straw Man and false dichotomy arguments. Its very rude. You know full well that nobody here is advocating "15,000 square foot homes".
I would be quite happy living on my own in a one bedroom flat or council house, with a small kitchen, lounge (maybe not even that), one bathroom etc.
But perpetually living like students, in a shared house with strangers? Who the feth wants to live like that? I did that for 3 months during a student internship living with 3 strangers in a big 4 bedroom house, and it was fething awful. Drunk Poles (and thats not intended as a commentary on all Poles) next door waking me up with loud music and knocking on my bedroom door at 2 am to ask if they were disturbing me. A fellow student intern who left her dirty dishes caked with food in the sink all day long, forcing me to shift them out. Filthy kitchen and bathroom, with nobody taking responsibility for cleaning their own messes.
I'd rather have a small one bedroom flat to myself, and theres no reason why that should not be affordable for people on minimum wage with a little smart, responsible budgeting.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/02 18:33:32
2016/03/02 18:30:46
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Interesting video, Whembley, but I must say that the American politics thread is that way --------------->
You guys only get involved in Europe when there's a war on
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/03/02 18:31:18
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Rent is very high in parts of the UK though. On a teachers wage most of my money was gone on rent each month in the red light district of a not-very-nice town outside london.
I got my education for free (cheers Ireland!), a British teacher these days would be coming out with big debt to pay off as well. It's not a great incentive. (Sorry for being so teaching focused, it's just what I can speak on with authority.)
A friend of mine is trying to find a room to rent on the outskirts of London, £600 a month for one room was "cheap" as chips.
You'd get a house and a manservant for that much in Bridgend*.
*Not really
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2016/03/02 18:32:12
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah. Here a roommate is anybody you share living space with. Be that you actually sleep in the same room or have your own bedroom in an apartment or house you share. Old fashioned people sometimes call their roommates house mates, but you basically gotta be an old geezer to use that language.
Thats a housemate, not a roommate.
you basically gotta be an old geezer to use that language
You gotta be an idiot not to. Why use roommate, which leads to confusion and miscommunication, when a perfectly acceptable alternative that will communicate exactly what you mean, already exists?
2016/03/02 18:32:53
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Grey Templar wrote: Fair enough. I suppose the term is tripping people over.
I think the word you use is Flatmate or something yes?
I don't mind sharing a apartment with a relative or good friend, but most people in Britain would be reluctant to share a apartment with total strangers.
Well I would be too. I think the vast majority of people who share apartments or houses tend to know each other prior to moving in over here. Outside of college freshmen most people don't move in with total strangers(but then student housing is usually assigned and you just gotta deal with it).
I'm renting a room in a house with other people currently, just till I can afford my own place.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Rent is very high in parts of the UK though. On a teachers wage most of my money was gone on rent each month in the red light district of a not-very-nice town outside london.
I got my education for free (cheers Ireland!), a British teacher these days would be coming out with big debt to pay off as well. It's not a great incentive. (Sorry for being so teaching focused, it's just what I can speak on with authority.)
A friend of mine is trying to find a room to rent on the outskirts of London, £600 a month for one room was "cheap" as chips.
You'd get a house and a manservant for that much in Bridgend*.
*Not really
Jebus... you can buy a house or really, REALLY nice condo here in the midwest for that.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2016/03/02 18:35:24
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah. Here a roommate is anybody you share living space with. Be that you actually sleep in the same room or have your own bedroom in an apartment or house you share. Old fashioned people sometimes call their roommates house mates, but you basically gotta be an old geezer to use that language.
Thats a housemate, not a roommate.
you basically gotta be an old geezer to use that language
You gotta be an idiot not to. Why use roommate, which leads to confusion and miscommunication, when a perfectly acceptable alternative that will communicate exactly what you mean, already exists?
Thats just how we talk over here in the US. Roommate applies to the whole situation over here. Nobody over here would be confused if you called the guy you share an apartment with your roommate. Watch any American tv show or movie where people share living space. They'll call them roommates regardless of the actual sleeping arrangements.
Rent is very high in parts of the UK though. On a teachers wage most of my money was gone on rent each month in the red light district of a not-very-nice town outside london.
I got my education for free (cheers Ireland!), a British teacher these days would be coming out with big debt to pay off as well. It's not a great incentive. (Sorry for being so teaching focused, it's just what I can speak on with authority.)
A friend of mine is trying to find a room to rent on the outskirts of London, £600 a month for one room was "cheap" as chips.
You'd get a house and a manservant for that much in Bridgend*.
*Not really
Jebus... you can buy a house or really, REALLY nice condo here in the midwest for that.
Heh, yeah. Housing expenses really vary depending on where you are.
I'm super lucky I got my room for $300/month here in California. Its almost criminally cheap.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/02 18:36:40
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Regardless of whether or not housemate is a common term in the USA...its a self explanatory term. How anybody can hear "housemate" and not understand it or make the connection, is beyond me.
2016/03/02 18:38:50
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I understand what it means. It just either makes you sound old or marks you as a foreigner.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Rent is very high in parts of the UK though. On a teachers wage most of my money was gone on rent each month in the red light district of a not-very-nice town outside london.
I got my education for free (cheers Ireland!), a British teacher these days would be coming out with big debt to pay off as well. It's not a great incentive. (Sorry for being so teaching focused, it's just what I can speak on with authority.)
A friend of mine is trying to find a room to rent on the outskirts of London, £600 a month for one room was "cheap" as chips.
You'd get a house and a manservant for that much in Bridgend*.
*Not really
I'm looking at moving into Central London next year. I can only afford the cheapest though, which is £800 a month for a poky room in a shared flat.
2016/03/02 18:55:08
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
notprop wrote: It makes you someone that won't stand out.
I had a similar job at Uni. I got paid a day rate so no overtime, we'd have to wait for lorries from the continent. The day finished when those lorries were unloaded.
I could have stood about drinking tea or smoking but I would set up the computer and printers for the next days deliveries while I waited. I the part time junior was soon out earning the full time vets.
Work is work, put more effort in and mostly you get more out.
It's easy to 'stand out'.
It is also to be exploited. Standing out might just make you a mark to be burdened with the work but not benefit from it.
Depending on who you are the amount of times you turn down overtime may or may not be more important that the amount of times you do the extra work, or work harder in general. Peoples memories are selective in this way. A lot of workers do extra time and and dont get any actual benefit from it. I don't accept the idea that work hard and you rise to the top, it doesnt match the reality.
Some people agree to call in on emergency shifts over the phone, promised pay and a half and get stitched on the extra pay. I saw this a lot with the security industry.
Some people work harder and don't get noticed because they are a different ethnic group to the supervisor.
Some people work harder and don't get promoted because they are less chummy in general.
Some people work harder and don't get promoted because they work harder, promoting them moves them from the position they are in where they make their supervisor look good, and the next guy might not be as hard a worker.
I have witnessed all the above scenarios in different places of work.
Life isn't fair, it is especially unfair for unskilled or semi skilled workers, or where there is a glut on skilled worker in an industry, or if you are culturally disempowered, which doesn't necessarily always mean ethnic. Minorities have rights and increased access to advocasy.
There's a certain group in Britain, let's call them employers who think that if you're not working 23 hours a day, 7 seven days a week to make them richer, then you're workshy and not as hardworking as Johnny Foreigner
Not an unhealthy attitude to be sceptical regarding employers and actual opportunity.
While at a tangent from the paid market let us look at the example of Workfare schemes, as they highlight the attitudes well.
The long term unemployed under a cetain age are expected to join Workfare and do some work for their benefit, sometimes up to a four day week, the remaining time is signed in at a in a jobsearch agency. So its a full weeks hours.
I can see the intended benefits of this, it helps the unemployed get back into a work routine and ensures that benefits claimants who are able to work pay back to society.
However a large number of companies, surprise surprise welcome workfare because they don't have to pay any wages.
Furthermore anything less than a hard days work (often judged more strictly than paid employees) risks having the workfare attendee sent back to the Jobcentre, which means an automatic loss of benefits. This in reality means they can be immediately sanctioned without appeal and without any of the protections of a paid employee.
Some Workfare schemes were extendable on the summise that paid work could result. The actual reality was that the Workfare was extendable, but the opportunity would never materialise. Tescos were notorious for this in promising paid employment at the end of a review period, for the review period to never end.
Eventually a case though the EU courts (and actual example of EU membership being relevant to this industry) meant that benefits claimants had the right to flatly refuse to work for a profit making employer, on the grounds that it was 'slave labour'. Trade Unions supported this and also commented that so long as companies got staff through Workfare the work they were doing cut a potential employee out of a job on a person to person basis.
Workfare is an clear example of the exploitation culture in the UK at this time, and a clear example of how hard work doesn't necessarily in any way benefit the worker where there is nomechanism to force employers to treat workers fairly.
To top it all management consider Workfare attendees as little more than scum, some admittedly will be, other will just be unemployed. Now that Workfare is largely processed to community projects and charities requiring manpower, sucgh as park maintenance there is in fact little to separate those on Workfare from those sentenced to community service for crimes, including in how they are treated.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/02 22:39:05
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2016/03/02 19:01:16
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
notprop wrote: It makes you someone that won't stand out. I had a similar job at Uni. I got paid a day rate so no overtime, we'd have to wait for lorries from the continent. The day finished when those lorries were unloaded. I could have stood about drinking tea or smoking but I would set up the computer and printers for the next days deliveries while I waited. I the part time junior was soon out earning the full time vets. Work is work, put more effort in and mostly you get more out.
It's easy to 'stand out'. It is also to be exploited. Standing out might just make you a mark to be burdened with the work but not benefit from it.
I had this experience. I tried "standing out", but that just allowed my coworkers to slack off and leave me to do things they probably ought to have been doing. (Seriously, one guy had a habit of sitting on a forklift browsing facebook and youtube on his phone instead of doing stuff to help me out operating the machine, like printing up bags so I wouldn't have to stop the machine every 10 min). Eventually I stopped bothering, just stuck to my own allocated duties and did what I was told.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/03/02 19:05:08
2016/03/02 19:14:23
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
I found that promotion was based on how chummy you were. And how chummy you were depended on whether you spent your lunchbreaks socialising in the smoking room (this was the 90's) I was a non smoker and thus could not stand the place, there were only two other non smokers who would spend their lunch in the workers cafe, ironically a large empty space, while most people hung out to smoke in the small rec room.
Smoking ban at work fixed this, but by that time I had long moved on. I and the other non smokers worked as hard as the rest, but never got bank holiday shifts rota, and had piss all chance of getting to become team leader.
There is no bitterness over this, I took this work after college before heading on to other things, but it is odd what the real catalysts for success and failure within a company might be.
I dont know Shadow Captain Edithae's experience but have a close friend who does. As with Machiavelli's teachings: if you become the giver of a community and you stop giving, then you become labeled as a miser, and not the actual misers who never gave.
The guy on the forklift who plodded along might be an ok worker, while Edithae after starting to keep his head down might have become the one with the lazy rep. I wonder if this was the case?
If not there is still no guarantee that hard work will be recognised. Look Edithae is doing the work of both of them, lets make him the next team leader, is wishful thinking. It can certainly happen, but as likely the bosses might never notice, or if they notice not care.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/02 22:37:41
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2016/03/02 19:25:16
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
I heard that over the last 30 years, the EU's share of global GDP has shrunk from 30% to around 17%. That, clearly, is not a model for economic success.
Assuming that's true (not going to check) certainly that is because countries like China and India are developing their economies and thus occupying larger percentage? It is not indication of EU doing badly, US percentage of global GDP would have similarly declined. You're not actually having a smaller slice of a pie, it is just that the whole pie is bigger than it used to be.
The only time the boss took an active interest in the factory floor was when a machine was breaking down, as he was the only person qualified to fix it. Otherwise he left us to get on with the job.
2016/03/02 20:25:25
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
I worked an administrative post once where I literally did the job of 4 people (when I left, they had one person doing 2 of my roles, and divided the rest up between a bunch of others). And worked that job on a pay grade lower than any one of the 4 jobs should have been paid. In the 2-3 years I did that job, I never got a bonus or overtime.
Yet there were people working there who did literally nothing all day, and got others to cover the majority of their role, then put in for overtime and got it as they were "behind".
You can work your fingers to the bone, but hard work is not an automatic pathway to riches, or even a reasonable set of living circumstances.
Even now, as a professional making reasonable money, married to another professional also making reasonable money, I am certainly better off than many other people in the UK, but life is not exactly easy.
A living, minimum wage should give you the basic requirements of modern life (food, individual living space, transport, communications and entertainment), while still allowing you to save something to help improve your lot amd while working reasonable weekly hours.
Chaps one bad job (and there are planty out there) doesn't mean that you should give up and adopt a drone mentality. By all means do so but don't complain that everything's rubbish because you've given up. Just change jobs.
Not sure what any of this has to do with the European Union. It's just work, you do it to live.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2016/03/02 23:43:00
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Not sure what any of this has to do with the European Union. It's just work, you do it to live.
It has raised surprises. EU legislation has influenced many of the topics mentioned in what appears to be a thread diversion. The EU has successfully put a stop to Tory ambitions with Workfare for example, and I believe the EU challenge was a necessary one. You mentioned immigrant workers without family working longer hours. This is directly relvant to the policy discussion on child benefit payable to workers who have family abroad, which was recently a sticking point on Camerons drive for a deal with the EU.
The Uk is so entrenched with the single market that work practices are entirely relevant, just often indirectly connected. As the entire issue of EU membership is dominated by indirect connections eg "we should vote In/Out because the consequences will cause x to y and thus have a knock on effect on z."
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2016/03/02 23:49:51
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
notprop wrote: Chaps one bad job (and there are planty out there) doesn't mean that you should give up and adopt a drone mentality. By all means do so but don't complain that everything's rubbish because you've given up. Just change jobs.
Not sure what any of this has to do with the European Union. It's just work, you do it to live.
My anecdote was a direct response to you saying I didn't try to "stand out". I DID try, and I got burned for it. Does that mean I'm gonna slack off in future jobs because of one bad experience? No, of course not. I'll give every employer the benefit of the doubt, and work hard to prove myself.
And thank you for your suggestion, thats not condescending in the slightest.
2016/03/03 00:03:01
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Not condescending when it sounds like you need help.
I generally look to change jobs every 3-4 years, when the market is bouyant as now this might change to every 2 years. I test the market for salary level all the time. I've changed jobs 3 times in the last decade increasing my salary on average 10-20% each time and am considering it again presently. Moving jobs is good advice. The longer you stick at a role the less competitive your salary will become. If you also unhappy with the role the it's definitely time to go. Money washes away much dissatisfaction in any role.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2016/03/03 00:09:22
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
You change jobs every couple of years? What field are you in? I've had the same job for 18 years, and am only now looking to change.
Admitedely, I have to complete a degree first in the interim, but the last time I changed jobs as quickly as you, I was in my teens/ 20's and working a variety of menial jobs.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2016/03/03 00:11:05
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
I got my education for free (cheers Ireland!), a British teacher these days would be coming out with big debt to pay off as well. It's not a great incentive. (Sorry for being so teaching focused, it's just what I can speak on with authority.)
I'm Scottish, so got my education for 'mostly' free. Even so, I work in England now and work with a lot of folks who have kids at nearly university age. As far as the last time I've talked to them, they've never really managed to describe how the various official costs (EG Tuition fees, Student Loads with the capital S and L) are 'really' debt.
I've argued, it's basically a graduation tax, that you only pay when you when you're earning an income as to be expected as a minimum from someone graduating university - £21k I believe. Even then, it's actually a tax you might get to stop paying one day. - If you don't, who cares, it'll get written off eventually anyway.
Of course, I'm going to come across as a massive jerk if they've gone and changed the rules on me.
2016/03/03 00:24:04
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
r_squared wrote: You change jobs every couple of years? What field are you in? I've had the same job for 18 years, and am only now looking to change.
Admitedely, I have to complete a degree first in the interim, but the last time I changed jobs as quickly as you, I was in my teens/ 20's and working a variety of menial jobs.
How do the salaries look in the market after that long?
I'm 39 and a Commercial Manager in the construction industry and did the whole Uni bit back in the day. I've Never had to move and always chose to. I paid my own way through Uni so have never been beholden to an employer for that.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2016/03/03 00:35:33
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
I'm an air traffic controller, so the market doesn't really make a difference to my salary, although that hasn't gone up in the last few years.
My mind boggles at how you manage juggling a new job every few years, but I guess you're used to it.
I also imagine that there are likely to be more people who share the same experience and expectations of work with you, than me. There are very few jobs for life these days. I think my job is one of those very few niches that still offers that sort of life in the UK.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2016/03/03 09:42:35
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
And if you don't want to click on the link, here's the article:
Spoiler:
On 1 March, Brendan O’Neill spoke to the Brexit Society at Cambridge University. Here’s what he said.
The Brexit camp has asked the BBC to do it one, pretty small favour in the run-up to the EU referendum: to differentiate between ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’. To encourage its reporters to say ‘Europe’ only when they are referring to the vast continent we live in, and to say ‘the EU’ when they are referring to the Brussels-run union of 28 member states.
And the BBC has refused. Or it has at least failed to clarify when these two very different terms may be used by its staff. This means the BBC has implicitly given a nod of approval to its reporters to say ‘Europe’ when they really mean ‘the EU’.
Some observers think the Brexit lobby is mad for asking for this clarification from the BBC. A writer for the New Statesman said it showed that some people will find bias in the most innocuous of things. In other words: chill out; it is not a problem for the national broadcaster to use the terms ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’ interchangeably; stop making a fuss about nothing.
But I think the BBC’s unwillingness to maintain a distinction between ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’ is actually very revealing, and worrying.
It speaks to one of the worst aspects of the debate about the EU: the conflation of the Brussels-based oligarchy with the continent of Europe; the mixing-up of the small, unaccountable cliques who peer down at Europe from their air-conditioned towers in Brussels with Europe itself.
Think about some of the phrases that could potentially be uttered by BBC reporters if they use ‘Europe’ for ‘EU’. They could say that the people of Peterborough, one of the most anti-EU parts of Britain, are ‘against Europe’. They could say that people in Warrington, the seventh most Eurosceptic part of Britain, ‘hate Europe’ or are ‘voting to get out of Europe’.
But of course they’re doing no such thing. Britain isn’t leaving the continent of Europe. That isn’t what we’re voting on. And these people in Peterborough and Warrington might love Europe. They might holiday in Spain, have friends in France, love Swedish TV dramas. Many, if not most, of them won’t be anti-European — they’re just anti-EU.
The Stay campaign’s habit of conflating ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’ means that those who are anti-EU can be easily depicted as anti-Europe, as xenophobic or nationalistic. These people’s political outlook — their dislike of the way Brussels can impose its writ on nation states — is reduced to a prejudiced outlook, a simple case of being anti-Europe. Their politics is pathologised, turned from opposition to a political system into opposition to a whole continent and its cultures and peoples.
This is why we so often see the term Europhobic. This word explicitly pathologises people’s dislike of the EU. It treats it almost as a mental illness: a phobia is an irrational fear.
The Guardian recently said that ordinary people’s Europhobia has been ‘pandered to and fed by Tory leaders’. So there’s a strange, fearful mob out there and the Tories are recklessly stirring it up. This week, a writer for New Europe magazine listed ‘Europhobia’ alongside ‘xenophobia, nationalism, Islamophobia and racism’, as values that are ‘alien to our postwar European culture’.
See how casually criticism of the EU, opposition to the Brussels oligarchy, is reduced to a phobia, an ism, something which goes against the ideals of Europe itself.
We must challenge the cynical conflation of ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’, and we must challenge the pathologisation of Brussels’ critics. Because, to my mind, the EU and Europe are not even remotely the same thing. Actually, I’d go further and say that the EU grates against everything that is brilliant about Europe. The EU is an ugly, illiberal, undemocratic blot on the wonderful continent of Europe. The EU is a stain on the best, most inspiring values of Europe and its peoples. It is the EU that is anti-Europe.
I love Europe, but I hate the EU. I consider myself a European. I don’t have any special emotional attachment to Great Britain. I love London, but I’m kind of Irish, and if I could afford it I would live in Paris.
My argument for getting out of the EU is not a Little Englander one. It’s not because I think Britain is the best country in this continent. It’s not because I love the pound or the Queen. It’s because the EU is detrimental to the whole of Europe, and particularly to two incredibly important values that European peoples have in various ways been fighting for for hundreds of years: democracy and liberty. The EU is anti-democratic and illiberal.
Supporters of the EU tell us it is an inspiring union of the European peoples. Nonsense. It is a union of European elites who want to avoid their peoples. The EU is the mechanism through which national governments outsource various powers and decision-making processes to distant, aloof, mostly unaccountable bodies like the European Commission and the European Court of Justice.
The true instinct behind the Brussels machine is not to bring Europe together. It is to absolve national governments of the burden of having to consult us, the plebs, about important political and social matters, in favour of allowing various experts and cliques in Brussels to discuss and shape such matters on our behalf. The EU’s fuel is not cosmopolitanism — it’s democracy-dodging.
From the outset, the EU has not been the embodiment of people’s will — it has been a struggle against people’s will. The 1992 Maastricht Treaty that founded the EU as we know it was only just approved by France and was rejected by Denmark. And of course, John Major’s Tory government refused to put it to a referendum. British people were co-opted into the EU without our explicit say-so.
Almost every time they have been asked about the EU, people in Europe have said ‘We don’t want it’. In Ireland in 2001, voters said No to the Nice Treaty. In 2005, the new EU Constitution was rejected by voters in France and Holland. EU bureaucrats then denounced the French and Dutch as ‘ignorant’ and ‘xenophobic’. One MEP said it was mad to subject something as important as the EU Constitution to the ‘lottery’ of public opinion.
The European Commission responded to this French and Dutch disobedience by renaming the EU Constitution the ‘Lisbon Treaty’, which EC vice-president Margot Wallstrom admitted was ‘essentially the same proposal as the old constitution’. Only this time people wouldn’t be asked to vote on it, because, in the words of Nicolas Sarkozy, ‘a referendum now would bring Europe into danger’. So democracy is dangerous; the people’s will is a threat to the EU project.
In 2008, the Irish were permitted to vote on the Lisbon Treaty. And they said No. They were slammed and defamed by Brussels bureaucrats and forced to vote again. Under the pressure of the EU’s economic blackmail, they said Yes second time round.
The EU is not an expression of European people’s will. On the contrary, it has been constituted time and again in direct opposition to people’s will.
The hostility of the EU to national sentiment and democratically elected governments can also be seen in its constant hectoring of the governments of Eastern Europe.
In 2006, the elected prime minister of Slovakia was instructed by Brussels to challenge political extremism in his country and repress certain political ways of thinking or risk being found in breach of EU regulations. In 2006, the prime minister of Poland was forced by Brussels to declare that his government was not homophobic or anti-Semitic and that it would not bring back the death penalty. In 2011, the EU pressured the Hungarian government to rethink its new constitution.
In 2000, when the far-right Freedom Party won 27 per cent of votes in Austria, enough to enter into a coalition government, Brussels imposed diplomatic sanctions on Austria. There would be no ‘business as usual’, the EU decreed, so long as the Freedom Party remained in government. The Freedom Party that had just been elected by huge numbers of Austrian people.
Brussels’ lecturing of Eastern governments doesn’t only expose the anti-democratic instincts of the EU — it also gives the lie to the idea that the EU has united the nations of Europe. Actually the EU has nurtured divisions, primarily between the apparently civilised west of Europe and the allegedly dark, twisted east of Europe which must constantly be corrected, but also between the supposedly industrious north and the apparently lazy, financially reckless south. The Iron Curtain is back, and the north-south divide is back, in a new, insidious way.
The Brussels oligarchy’s view of democracy as dangerous became most apparent in 2011. In that year it worked to impose technocratic governments in Greece and Italy and to import a gang of bankers and bureaucrats to Dublin to keep a watchful eye on the Irish government and its austerity measures. It rode roughshod over democracy, and effectively installed benign tyrannies.
Mario Monti, the unelected technocrat charged with running Italy on behalf of Brussels, actually boasted about the aloofness of his regime. He said: ‘The absence of political personalities removes any ground for disagreement.’ This is what the EU and its lackeys really hate: politics, personality, debate, disagreement — the lifeblood of democracy. They far prefer the rule of experts, the coolness of technocrats.
And their fanboys in the media agree. In 2011, the Guardian published an article headlined ‘In defence of Europe’s technocrats’. It argued that ‘temporary technocrat rule may well be… acceptable — perhaps necessary — at a time of crisis’. Here we have an explicit defence of the destruction of democracy; an open, unabashed argument for the rule of the unelected. And it comes, not from the far right or neo-fascists or other extremist groups that we’re constantly told pose a threat to European values, but from so-called liberals, from supposed EU cosmopolitans.
Some people argue that the EU is our best guard against the kind of tyranny Europe experienced in the 1930s and 40s. Yet as they say this, Brussels installs unelected leaders, blackmails elected prime ministers, describes democratic referendums as a ‘danger’. Under the cover of keeping at bay the tyrannies of the past, the EU constructs a new kind of tyranny.
The vile attacks on the voters of France and Holland and Ireland, the dictating to the elected governments of Eastern Europe, the enforcement of technocratic oversight in Greece and Italy…. none of this is accidental or merely a response to particularly tense, crisis-ridden moments in recent years. Rather, it is in the very nature of the EU to be suspicious of or outright hostile towards the views and attitudes and will of European peoples.
Indeed, the EU has shaped itself precisely around European elites’ feeling of exhaustion with the democratic process. The EU is the means through which politics can be done in a distant and post-democratic way. And to this end, at the very top of Brussels, there is the EC, a body that is emblematic of the EU’s agitation with democracy. This executive body, responsible for proposing EU legislation, is unelected. It has 28 members, one for each member state, who are nominated by the member states. You have no more power to get rid of this clique of commissioners than you have of walking on the Moon this evening. They are beyond your reach, yet they make laws that impact on your life. That is fundamentally contrary to democracy. It cuts against the basic democratic principle that we should consent to the institutions that rule us.
The EU doesn’t only trash democracy. It restricts liberty, too. This vast oligarchical entity is, unsurprisingly, hostile to the idea that people should be free to think and say what they please and to live their lives as they see fit so long as they don’t harm anyone else.
The EU does not trust you plebs. It continually passes rules or laws that seek to govern your minds and lives. It tells all national governments to restrict speech that incites hatred ‘based on race, sex, religion or nationality’, an explicit attack on freedom of speech. It has seriously discussed outlawing the denial not only of the Holocaust — which would be illiberal enough — but also of various other crimes against humanity. This would massively dent academic freedom and historical debate.
Its illiberalism is often mad and petty. It has banned chocolate candy cigarettes on the basis that they ‘appeal to minors’ and could be a gateway to real smoking. It has passed regulations designed to protect ‘vulnerable consumers’ — that is, stupid ordinary people — including by restricting the advertising of formula milk to new mums, who, in the EU’s eyes, should be breastfeeding and not arrogantly making their own parenting choices. It wants to ban diabetics from driving. It enforces controls on products that use a certain amount of wattage, in an attempt to make us uncaring idiots more eco-friendly, whether we want to be or not.
The EU thinks our nationally expressed political will is dangerous, and it thinks it is dangerous to leave us to our own devices, to let us say what we want, buy what we want, behave as we want. This is an institution designed to circumscribe your democratic rights and your everyday ability to run your life.
It goes against what it means to be European. For hundreds of years, through democratic upheavals, revolutions, struggles against arbitrary power and struggles for enlightenment, the peoples of Europe have sought to gain greater control over both their nations’ political affairs and their own lives. The EU undermines both of these things, both democracy and individual liberty. It is against the gains of history. It is against Europe. It is against us.
As someone who considers himself left-wing, I’m horrified that lefties are often at the forefront of defending this elitist institution. It is an historic black mark against the reputation of the left that it has been the chief cheerleader of an institution that undoes so many of the great gains of past radicals and progressives.
We must leave the EU, in order to start the process of recovering our democratic clout. But we must do more than that: we must also encourage and offer solidarity to other European peoples who want to leave. Too much of the current debate is focused around, ‘What will happen to Britain if we leave?’ My concern is what will happen to the other European peoples who will remain stuck in this awful institution. We must fight with them, alongside them, and create a new and real unity across Europe: a union not of elites who distrust the people, but of peoples who have had more than they can take of the elites.
Brendan O’Neill is editor of spiked.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/03/03 13:04:54
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Firstly, sources. Who in the Brexit campaign asked who in the BBC?
Were they for instance talking to someone with the authority to actually enforce a change?
Is it unreasonable for the BBC to refuse to pander to a pedantic, politically motivated request? What is the implication if a BBC journalist inadvertently used the "incorrect" term?
The article writer then when right ahead and put words in the mouths of the BBC and the In campaign, in order to stir up fear and anxiety over an issue that they have deliberately created.
It might seem like a reasonable and cogent argument to you, but it looks like a pile of opinion and balls to me.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2016/03/03 13:10:36
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Firstly, sources. Who in the Brexit campaign asked who in the BBC?
Were they for instance talking to someone with the authority to actually enforce a change?
Is it unreasonable for the BBC to refuse to pander to a pedantic, politically motivated request? What is the implication if a BBC journalist inadvertently used the "incorrect" term?
The article writer then when right ahead and put words in the mouths of the BBC and the In campaign, in order to stir up fear and anxiety over an issue that they have deliberately created.
It might seem like a reasonable and cogent argument to you, but it looks like a pile of opinion and balls to me.
Ahead of any election or referendum, the BBC meets with political parties or campaign groups, and sets the 'ground rules' on things like TV debates, how much coverage each side gets in interviews, number of people on radio panels discussing politics etc etc
This is due to electoral guidelines from the electoral commission, so it's fair to say that somebody from the leave camp raised this issue in a meeting with the BBC. I don't know if it was a request, or an official decree, but these things do happen.
And finally, most of it is the author's opinion
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/03/03 13:28:15
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Unfortunately the minutiae and stuff like this is not going to win any argument, and only satisfies the author's ego/ agenda.
I am going to do some research, and I invite all members who are interested to do the same to see if we can establish some actual facts about the issues, bringing them in for discussion, things that people are really worried about, or just don't know.
From what I've read everywhere, there is an absolute gaping void of any actual information. It's all just opinions and guess work. People are hungry for facts in order to make an informed decision.
That can't be too much to ask?
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2016/03/03 13:32:26
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Unfortunately the minutiae and stuff like this is not going to win any argument, and only satisfies the author's ego/ agenda.
I am going to do some research, and I invite all members who are interested to do the same to see if we can establish some actual facts about the issues, bringing them in for discussion, things that people are really worried about, or just don't know.
From what I've read everywhere, there is an absolute gaping void of any actual information. It's all just opinions and guess work. People are hungry for facts in order to make an informed decision.
That can't be too much to ask?
I'm all for people having the facts before they vote, but my argument (that the EU is a menace to democracy) is widely supported by past EU actions and statements from EU leaders.
The Lisbon treaty talks about ever closer union - that's as black and white as you can possibly get!
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd