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It's alright, the taxpayer will pick it up.... Seems they can't use Uber a taxi like everyone else?

 zedmeister wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Just look at its source, the Daily fething Mail.

Apparently even the Corgis and dear old Winston Churchill want out. Diana told the mail in an exclusive interview with Marjorie Potts, 68 of Hove.

"She came to me last night, clear as you standing there. I'd just had me neck medicine when the Queen of Hearts told me that Winnie and her had a message for Mr Cameron."

Made me drop me sherry it did.

Your bias is showing. If you actually read the article, you'll see the source is actually the Sun.

I dislike the Daily Mail. It is sensational and hypocritical. But, the Daily Mail does have decent columnists that are worth a read. The aforementioned Peter Hitchens as well as Peter Oborne for example. Don't discount the story because you disagree with the publishing company.

I read it for Peter Hitchens, and because its the paper I grew up reading. My dad would buy it weekly, and I'd always nick it. Yes its a tabloid. Yes its sensational. I've never pretended otherwise. Do I give a feth?

Lot of papers are tabloids and lots of them are just as "bad", especially ones that could be considered " left wing". And quite often, the Mails most vitriolic haters and critics are simply people with an opposing political leaning I.e. Labour. Newspapers are just as tribal as political parties.


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 Goliath wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The Queen 'backs Brexit': Her Majesty reported to have revealed Eurosceptic views to former Deputy PM Nick Clegg at lunch during last parliament.

Buckingham Palace has moved to deny claims the Queen is backing Brexit
Monarch, 89, said to have aired Eurosceptic views to Nick Clegg at a lunch
Source told The Sun pro-EU then deputy PM was reprimanded by Queen
Mr Clegg last night said he had ‘no recollection’ of such a conversation

Clegg is clearly lying. That is not the sort of thing you would forget.

And yes R_squared, its a Daily Mail article. Cry me a river.

I'm trying to get around the logic of your post. "A Source" tells The Sun that something happened. Both people that supposedly were involved in this happening deny it having happened, and this is somehow evidence that they're both lying rather than "A Source"?

Let alone the logic that "I don't recall that happening" doesn't work because he'd obviously remember it, so he's obviously lying. It can't be that it didn't happen and that's why he doesn't remember it, it's obviously that he's pretending that he can't remember.

Its a non denial denial. He used weasel words, he doesn't want to admit to it but stopped short of an outright emphatic denial ("It never happened") so if in future it does prove to be true, he can't be accused of having lied ("I didn't lie, I just didn't remember it"). Its not the sort of thing anybody would forget, when the monarch of your country confides her view to you, the deputy prime minister, on the political future of your country.

If it never happened, why not deny it outright? Call me cynical, but politicians do this all the time.


And of course the Palace is going to deny it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35762443

Just had this pop up

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Just look at its source, the Daily fething Mail.

Apparently even the Corgis and dear old Winston Churchill want out. Diana told the mail in an exclusive interview with Marjorie Potts, 68 of Hove.

"She came to me last night, clear as you standing there. I'd just had me neck medicine when the Queen of Hearts told me that Winnie and her had a message for Mr Cameron."

Made me drop me sherry it did.

Your bias is showing. If you actually read the article, you'll see the source is actually the Sun.

I dislike the Daily Mail. It is sensational and hypocritical. But, the Daily Mail does have decent columnists that are worth a read. The aforementioned Peter Hitchens as well as Peter Oborne for example. Don't discount the story because you disagree with the publishing company.

I read it for Peter Hitchens, and because its the paper I grew up reading. My dad would buy it weekly, and I'd always nick it. Yes its a tabloid. Yes its sensational. I've never pretended otherwise. Do I give a feth?

Lot of papers are tabloids and lots of them are just as "bad", especially ones that could be considered " left wing". And quite often, the Mails most vitriolic haters and critics are simply people with an opposing political leaning I.e. Labour. Newspapers are just as tribal as political parties.

Pretty much all the press is sensationalist, the broadsheets just use longer words.
Daily Mail gets the rep because it prints about issues the rest of the press would rather ignore. Other newspapers are just as extreme, but its dangerous to gun for the Sun or Mirror and the Guardian so had immunity in the last decade and has the self appointed powers of the progressive left to point the finger and scream bigotry at every turn and claim to a moral high ground that is above reproach by doing so.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The Queen 'backs Brexit': Her Majesty reported to have revealed Eurosceptic views to former Deputy PM Nick Clegg at lunch during last parliament.

Buckingham Palace has moved to deny claims the Queen is backing Brexit
Monarch, 89, said to have aired Eurosceptic views to Nick Clegg at a lunch
Source told The Sun pro-EU then deputy PM was reprimanded by Queen
Mr Clegg last night said he had ‘no recollection’ of such a conversation

Clegg is clearly lying. That is not the sort of thing you would forget.

And yes R_squared, its a Daily Mail article. Cry me a river.

I'm trying to get around the logic of your post. "A Source" tells The Sun that something happened. Both people that supposedly were involved in this happening deny it having happened, and this is somehow evidence that they're both lying rather than "A Source"?

Let alone the logic that "I don't recall that happening" doesn't work because he'd obviously remember it, so he's obviously lying. It can't be that it didn't happen and that's why he doesn't remember it, it's obviously that he's pretending that he can't remember.

Its a non denial denial. He used weasel words, he doesn't want to admit to it but stopped short of an outright emphatic denial ("It never happened") so if in future it does prove to be true, he can't be accused of having lied ("I didn't lie, I just didn't remember it"). Its not the sort of thing anybody would forget, when the monarch of your country confides her view to you, the deputy prime minister, on the political future of your country.

If it never happened, why not deny it outright? Call me cynical, but politicians do this all the time.
And of course the Palace is going to deny it.

The Palace has done more than deny it, they have complained, and are right to do so.
Clegg is not 'clearly lying', unlike you and I Clegg met the Queen regularly, can you remember every word you spoke to your supervisor at work or equivalent? Likely not. These people cover a lot of issues and have busy lives.
Besides let us assume for a moment that the Queen made 'eurosceptic' comments in 2011, that means feth all for the Sun to claim.
I am voting In not Out yet I have had plenty of eurosceptic things to say on this thread, let alone 2011. There is no story, but try telling that to the Sun.

Who in their right mind believes anything that Nick Clegg says?

If Clegg said that grass was green, I'd be on my front lawn double-checking!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Who in their right mind believes anything that Nick Clegg says?

If Clegg said that grass was green, I'd be on my front lawn double-checking!

So, have you got many examples of him actually explicitly lying? Because I can't actually think of many times where he's actually been proven to have lied about things.
The student loans debacle is infuriating, but I don't blame that on Clegg lying so much as his lack of spine and a Tory willingness to feth over anyone and everyone that isn't themselves.

I personally wouldn't mind if the UK left, my income is in dollars so a complete collapse of our currency/ economy would be fine with me.

The past 5-6 years of economic policy has all been about desperately avoiding the UK's critical need to hit the reset button, crash the currency and rebuild from there. Pound has lost 20% of its value over the past few months simply over the *possibility* that we might leave.

House prices cut in half and Interest rates up to 15-20%, just like the early 90's, we came out of that stronger than ever until we decided that the entire economy could be built on using houses as poker chips.

Boom and bust always happens, we avoided the bust in 2008-2010 by throwing massive amounts of government debt at it, and from 2010-2016 by massive cuts in public spending. Not much left to trim before the nuclear option is the only one left.

By doing it this way the government gets to avoid responsibility as it's a referendum decision. Very clever.

Odd nicknames perhaps but you can guess who is who right ?

I'm guessing the point of that article is to give brexit a semi? Now the boobs have gone, you've still got to give the punters a twitch somehow.
It's not even pretending to be journalism. Theres not the vaguest attempt to do anything other than give Boris Johnson's boys a little tickle.
I met Lizzie a couple of years ago, and she said so herself, fact.

Mate, when I last had a gossip with her, she had some crackers to tell about you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35751919

Watch out, the left wing bastion the BBC supports totally unfounded claims that the Canadian governor of the bank of England mentioned the EU. The nosey foreign bounder.

Obviously the sources are lies, if you read the Sun or daily mail. Watch out for big words fellas.

There are no boobs to be found anywhere.


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 MrDwhitey wrote:
Mate, when I last had a gossip with her, she had some crackers to tell about you.

Ask her about my engorged left plum, she fething loves that story.

 Goliath wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Who in their right mind believes anything that Nick Clegg says?

If Clegg said that grass was green, I'd be on my front lawn double-checking!

So, have you got many examples of him actually explicitly lying? Because I can't actually think of many times where he's actually been proven to have lied about things.
The student loans debacle is infuriating, but I don't blame that on Clegg lying so much as his lack of spine and a Tory willingness to feth over anyone and everyone that isn't themselves.

I thought Nick Clegg was OK, and didn't hold the student loans thing against him at all. It was a manifesto pledge for the Lib Dems if they got elected. They weren't elected. They formed a really tiny minority of a coalition government, and as such there was no way they were going to get all their proposed policies into effect.

Of course, my student days are well in the past, so it didn't affect me directly.

Crispy78 wrote:
I thought Nick Clegg was OK, and didn't hold the student loans thing against him at all. It was a manifesto pledge for the Lib Dems if they got elected. They weren't elected. They formed a really tiny minority of a coalition government, and as such there was no way they were going to get all their proposed policies into effect.

Of course, my student days are well in the past, so it didn't affect me directly.

The problem was that they essentially killed the majority of their base of support; the student vote. Rather than ensuring that they stayed a viable party to hopefully later then enact real change as a more major force having campaigned on all the good stuff they did, they sacrificed themselves too early on a poorly thought out and presented campaign to change the way that voting works - which ultimately would have been massively beneficial, but was not really what the public wanted at the time.

Even with that blunder they could have clawed back some votes simply by demonstrating how much they held back the excesses of the Conservative party during their time in power.

Crispy78 wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Who in their right mind believes anything that Nick Clegg says?

If Clegg said that grass was green, I'd be on my front lawn double-checking!

So, have you got many examples of him actually explicitly lying? Because I can't actually think of many times where he's actually been proven to have lied about things.
The student loans debacle is infuriating, but I don't blame that on Clegg lying so much as his lack of spine and a Tory willingness to feth over anyone and everyone that isn't themselves.

I thought Nick Clegg was OK, and didn't hold the student loans thing against him at all. It was a manifesto pledge for the Lib Dems if they got elected. They weren't elected. They formed a really tiny minority of a coalition government, and as such there was no way they were going to get all their proposed policies into effect.

Of course, my student days are well in the past, so it didn't affect me directly.

If I'm perfectly honest, so did I. He at least provided somewhat of a moderating influence on the excesses of the Tories.

I mean, I'm one of the few people posting here that actually got affected by the tuition fee increase, to the point that I'm going to be paying about £25,000 more than I otherwise would have, and even then I hold the Tories more responsible than I do Clegg. The Lib Dems have been punished for the actions of the Tories, meanwhile George Osborne gets to carry on his idealogical financial crusade against people without the magical bootstrapping ability to inherit millions of pounds.

Yeah. I was sorry to see the Lib Dems get such a clobbering in the last election. I thought they did a decent job in the coalition, to the point that I actually voted Lib Dem for the first time in 2015. Ah well.

I graduated in 2000, so I came through after grants but before tuition fees.

It's the norm for coalitions - if the smaller party doesn't play it very carefully and cleverly, they tend to get absolutely hammered by their base.

The Lib Dems sacrificed on the wrong things in the end, and lost out because the Tories were better at politics. Same thing happened to the Irish Labour Party in our election a couple of weeks ago.

It's pretty unfair alright. But I think a "traitor" will always be despised more than an enemy you knew was going to feth with you all along.

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Daily Mail does have a reputation for being a bit of a right wing tabloid paper with poor editing skills, but it very rarely outright lies.

You've got this wrong.

It's a well-edited, and a journalistically often brilliant newspaper, Paul Dacre is an evil genus, but lying is an intrinsic part of their remit.

They asked me to co-operate with something on my day job; in essence, they wanted to print an article with my name on it. I asked for details, and it turned out they wanted their journalist to write the article - and misrepresent my work, which debunked a particular allegation, by repeating the story.

I said no thanks. They ran the article anyway, making silly allegations which I had debunked with the aid of people who were there at the time.

Sound familiar?

THe Queen Backs Brexit story is in The Sun, and in fact it's obviously claptrap. The Queen might well have complained about the EU. Even people who support the EU, like me, complain about it. She quite manifestly didn't back Brexit - because the concept of Brexit didn't even exist at the time. The story, or more specifically the headline, is laughable.

Sympathy for the Lib-Dems? Don't make me laugh!

The Lib-Dems are the biggest waste on space ever inflicted on the British public in modern times.

Lackeys, lickspittles, charlatans that abandoned their principals at the first whiff of power.

Clegg apologists have always cited the need for a unity government at a time of economic woe. This is complete horsegak!

If the Lib-Dems were really serious about acting in the national interest, they would have voted with the Tories on a vote by vote basis e.g. getting budget through parliament to prevent the economic situation from getting worse.

Instead, they embraced the Tory party, and ended up becoming apologists for some of the worst excesses of the Tories between 2010-15.

Regarding the EU, Clegg's made no secret of wanting to finish his career working in Brussels for whatever EU quango will take him - at our expensive of course.

He is campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU, not out of some lofty principals, but of naked self-interest. That is why I despise the man!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Sympathy for the Lib-Dems? Don't make me laugh!

The Lib-Dems are the biggest waste on space ever inflicted on the British public in modern times.

Lackeys, lickspittles, charlatans that abandoned their principals at the first whiff of power.

Clegg apologists have always cited the need for a unity government at a time of economic woe. This is complete horsegak!

If the Lib-Dems were really serious about acting in the national interest, they would have voted with the Tories on a vote by vote basis e.g. getting budget through parliament to prevent the economic situation from getting worse.

Instead, they embraced the Tory party, and ended up becoming apologists for some of the worst excesses of the Tories between 2010-15.

Regarding the EU, Clegg's made no secret of wanting to finish his career working in Brussels for whatever EU quango will take him - at our expensive of course.

He is campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU, not out of some lofty principals, but of naked self-interest. That is why I despise the man!

I'm going to ask again. Evidence please?

 Goliath wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Sympathy for the Lib-Dems? Don't make me laugh!

The Lib-Dems are the biggest waste on space ever inflicted on the British public in modern times.

Lackeys, lickspittles, charlatans that abandoned their principals at the first whiff of power.

Clegg apologists have always cited the need for a unity government at a time of economic woe. This is complete horsegak!

If the Lib-Dems were really serious about acting in the national interest, they would have voted with the Tories on a vote by vote basis e.g. getting budget through parliament to prevent the economic situation from getting worse.

Instead, they embraced the Tory party, and ended up becoming apologists for some of the worst excesses of the Tories between 2010-15.

Regarding the EU, Clegg's made no secret of wanting to finish his career working in Brussels for whatever EU quango will take him - at our expensive of course.

He is campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU, not out of some lofty principals, but of naked self-interest. That is why I despise the man!

I'm going to ask again. Evidence please?

Of what?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Sympathy for the Lib-Dems? Don't make me laugh!

The Lib-Dems are the biggest waste on space ever inflicted on the British public in modern times.

Lackeys, lickspittles, charlatans that abandoned their principals at the first whiff of power.

Clegg apologists have always cited the need for a unity government at a time of economic woe. This is complete horsegak!

If the Lib-Dems were really serious about acting in the national interest, they would have voted with the Tories on a vote by vote basis e.g. getting budget through parliament to prevent the economic situation from getting worse.

Instead, they embraced the Tory party, and ended up becoming apologists for some of the worst excesses of the Tories between 2010-15.

Regarding the EU, Clegg's made no secret of wanting to finish his career working in Brussels for whatever EU quango will take him - at our expensive of course.

He is campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU, not out of some lofty principals, but of naked self-interest. That is why I despise the man!

I'm going to ask again. Evidence please?

Of what?

"Regarding the EU, Clegg's made no secret of wanting to finish his career working in Brussels for whatever EU quango will take him - at our expensive of course. "

"Clegg apologists have always cited the need for a unity government at a time of economic woe. "

"Instead, they embraced the Tory party, and ended up becoming apologists for some of the worst excesses of the Tories between 2010-15."

and a general one for "Who in their right mind believes anything that Nick Clegg says?", but that wasn't so much a claim as an implication, so feel free to not.

Of Nick Clegg being evil moustache twirler selling out the country to the EU for personal gain MUHAHAHA.

You know, what you have been implying.

I call out Blair as evil because I and others can provide evidence for it, and while a lot of politicians are self serving the whole ideology that they are politicians therefore they will sell their own grannies for gain is tired. It is not unreasonable to ask for evidence before we accept that this name or that name is a complete crook.

TLDR: try harder, if Cleggy is that bad show us the evidence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goliath beat me to it.

So.... - What he said.

Goliath, do you hold everybody else to these high standards or just me?

I could play along, if I had an afternoon to waste tracking down articles about Nick Clegg, but I don't.

Now, you may rightfully say that I'm ducking the issue because I have no evidence, and that's a valid point.

But seeing as the Lib-Dems went from 50+ MPs in 2010, to 8 MPs in 2015, that speaks for itself.

The Lib-Dems voted for the bedroom tax, that is a matter of public record. The bedroom tax contributed to a lot of distress for many disabled people in the UK.

The Conservatives welfare reforms, including medical assessments of people with chronic disabilities, was voted through with the Lib-Dems help. Again, that's on the public record.

The Lib-Dems betrayed their promise on student fees. Again, that is a matter of public record.

Nick Clegg worked for the EU at one time. That is a matter of public record. He took money from Goldman Sachs for a pro-EU speech. Again, a matter of public record. Look it up, so my point about Clegg acting out of self-interest for his support of the EU, is valid.










Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
Of Nick Clegg being evil moustache twirler selling out the country to the EU for personal gain MUHAHAHA.

You know, what you have been implying.

I call out Blair as evil because I and others can provide evidence for it, and while a lot of politicians are self serving the whole ideology that they are politicians therefore they will sell their own grannies for gain is tired. It is not unreasonable to ask for evidence before we accept that this name or that name is a complete crook.

TLDR: try harder, if Cleggy is that bad show us the evidence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goliath beat me to it.

So.... - What he said.

Wasting an afternoon tracking down old articles may be productive to you, but not to me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, here we go.

Nick Clegg defends radical benefit cuts, giving lie to the idea that he was acting in the national economic interest, as these were ideological cuts from the Tories, which Clegg supported: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/sep/16/clegg-defends-benefits-cuts

Exclusive papers reveal that Clegg was always going to backtrack on tuition fees. So he is a liar. He said one thing in public, another thing in private: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/nov/12/lib-dems-tuition-fees-clegg

Nick Clegg, a British Obama for our time, writes a Guardian apologist in 2010 http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/apr/19/nick-clegg-obama

What's this - Clegg takes money to speak in favour of the EU! Hold the front page! http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/13/goldman-sachs-pays-nick-clegg-22500-pro-eu-speech-pepsico

Clegg had previously condemned Goldman Sachs for being reckless, and yet, here he is, pocketing their cash...

I could go on with this all afternoon, but I won't

Comment above redacted as Do_I_Not_Like_That edited to provide links.

You manned up and gave your side, fair enough. Will take a look at these later.

Considering there's an internal movement within the Lib Dem party to address that very issue of getting back to what they really stand for and other reform, I'd say the idea that they sold out is pretty solid.

 Orlanth wrote:

Spoiler:

I wont say if you cant be bothered to source, don't be bothered to post, but if you talk smack you should back it up.

And at least respectfully say nothing when someone turns up with a conflicting point of view that is backed by sourced material if you aren't prepared to provide alternate source material.

Comment above redacted as Do_I_Not_Like_That edited to provide links.

You manned up and gave your side, fair enough. Will take a look at these later.

I'm always happy to provide links when I can, but when you've got 2 dozen other things on at the same time...

 Baragash wrote:
Considering there's an internal movement within the Lib Dem party to address that very issue of getting back to what they really stand for and other reform, I'd say the idea that they sold out is pretty solid.

Clegg was weak, no doubt about that. Cameron walked all over him in coalition. The deals the Lib Dems got from the Tories were watered down to the point they were not workable. But the Tories paid up.

The 2011 Alternative Vote referendum was something the Tories did not want, would suit the Lib Dems and Cameron paid up by allowing a referendum in May 2011, which the Lib Dems lost.

Clegg wanted to avoid changes in the funding of higher education, but was forced into it. He apologised. I think this was acceptable and honest. In a coalition you don't get everything you wantand have to make compromises. IIRC Clegg backing down on student fees was the price for having an AV referendum.

Whether Clegg and his party is electable is a fair matter to discuss, and consider it the people have. But I will not call them dishonest for their actions.

 Orlanth wrote:

Clegg was weak, no doubt about that. Cameron walked all over him in coalition.

I was a long time Lib Dem voter (note was!) in general elections. And that statement is spot on. Clegg was manifestly unsuitable for the role in politicking with the Conservatives. Add to that other feckless idiots (Ed Davey for one) making a mess of things and I am not at all surprised the Lib Dems got the boot.

And another thing: if I express the opinion that I think Clegg is an idiot/lackey/lickspittle etc etc

I don't need to provide barcharts, piecharts, or articles to back that up!

Or am I wrong?

Just say why.

I said as much and didnt provide a link, but mentioned the AV referendum of May 2011 as public evidence, rather than just claimed such. That is enough.

Saying that (for example) Clegg was a lackey because he (being specific) didnt stand up to the Tories on university fees changes in 2010 is fair comment.

Saying he's Clegg, he's Lib Dem, therefore he is an idiot/lackey/lickspittle isnt fair.

Also you need to take the correctly labeled sledgehammer to the correct politicans rep. Was Clegg 'evil' for his climbdown on University fees? No. Was he a 'liar'? He broke his electoral promise but was not a liar as such given better circumstances he would have supported the student grant. Was he 'weak', and a 'toady' and 'lickspittle' for doing so? Hell yes.