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 General Kroll wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:


Workers right for example, would most certainly not be safe. Look at what the current government is doing to the trade unions for example. Would you REALLY trust a post Brexit Tory party to keep the liberal workers rights we have now?

It always makes me laugh that people seem to think that the EU is some mighty protector of workers rights - because one of the worst infringements I can think of to workers rights are zero hour contracts - and these were entirely unheard of before the EU.

Are you seriously blaming the rise of zero hour contracts on the eu?

That's laughable. Truly.

No, not at all - just that they are in existence and the EU does nothing about it, hence in what way do they 'protect the rights of workers'?

You made the claim that it is only because of the EU that we have any workers right, I simply pointed out that, since we have been in the EU we have implemented a law that removes ALL workers rights, so to claim that the EU in any way protects workers rights is not true.

Do I think that zero hours contracts will disappear if we vote out, No
Do I think that that zero hours contracts came about because of the EU, No

But the fact still remains that they have occurred under the EUs watch, and it hasn't lifted a finger to do anything about them - that isn't what I would call protection.

A quick visit to the Guardian newspaper and what do I see:

DOOM! IMF warns of BREXIT and a crashing economy.

DOOM! Harriet Harman says women's rights will be affected if UK leaves EU.

DOOM! John Major Warns of BREXIT

DOOM! Governor of Bank of England warns of economy affected if BREXIT happens

I'm cowering with fear

There's currently a process going on to prevent wage dumping and make sure that companies based in other EU countries can't outcompete domestic ones due to lower salaries. Pretty sure that counts as "protecting workers".

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A quick visit to the Guardian newspaper and what do I see:

DOOM! IMF warns of BREXIT and a crashing economy.

DOOM! Harriet Harman says women's rights will be affected if UK leaves EU.

DOOM! John Major Warns of BREXIT

DOOM! Governor of Bank of England warns of economy affected if BREXIT happens

I'm cowering with fear

Indeed. Then there's Lagarde's slip up that revealed that the treasury helped the IMF work out their figures:

“Let me by the same token thank all UK authorities who have been helping us in preparing the article for work in the last few weeks. There’s always been good cooperation between the Treasury, the Bank of England and any other authorities that we consult with”

 zedmeister wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A quick visit to the Guardian newspaper and what do I see:

DOOM! IMF warns of BREXIT and a crashing economy.

DOOM! Harriet Harman says women's rights will be affected if UK leaves EU.

DOOM! John Major Warns of BREXIT

DOOM! Governor of Bank of England warns of economy affected if BREXIT happens

I'm cowering with fear

Indeed. Then there's Lagarde's slip up that revealed that the treasury helped the IMF work out their figures:

“Let me by the same token thank all UK authorities who have been helping us in preparing the article for work in the last few weeks. There’s always been good cooperation between the Treasury, the Bank of England and any other authorities that we consult with”

40 more days and nights of this to come

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


40 more days and nights of this to come

Indeed, the remains arguments are getting more and more deranged and hysterical. The WWIII comment was beyond parody. And it's all because, hilariously, the polls are, on average, stubbornly showing a 50/50 split. Game on!

It's pretty pathetic. This is the same media who will no doubt lament the "lack of a positive vision for Europe" or some crap while laying the doom'n'gloom on thick to try and win the politics of fear game.

So far only the Brexiters are really putting anything positive forward. I personally think they're being unrealistic, but all the same, it's a pretty sad indictment of the political mainstream.

In a way I'm glad that the UK is experiencing this, it may broaden awareness of the crappy tactics in the media. Everyone seemed hunky dory with this crap when they were doing it to Scotland.

A bit for the brexits
Meanwhile....

Eighty Commonwealth community and business leaders have written an open letter to the PM lobbying for Brexit as they believe membership of the EU restricts British world trade. They claim that the EU's control of British trade policy stops the UK from negotiating its own trade deals outside the EU. (the commonwealth group also complained of the EU's discriminatory migration practices which favour EU citizens over world citizens)

Barclays Bank analysts have come to the conclusion that Brexit could make Britain a "safe haven" from a disintegrating EU, and dissuade Scotland from breaking away from the relative safety of the UK.

70% of Chief Financial Officers (CFO's) say that Brexit would NOT damage global business with the UK. CFO's are the senior managers responsible for overseeing the financial activities of entire companies.

Boeing, the worlds largest aircraft maker, has picked Britain as home for its new European headquarters regardless of Brexit. Boeing shrugged off concerns about a UK exit from the EU and selected London as the base for its entire European operation. Boeing currently employs approximately 2,000 staff and has also invested £1.8billion in the country.

Multibillion dollar cosmetics giant Avon is relocating its headquarters to Britain from the US after 130-years, regardless of Brexit. Avon said the move will help the company maximise direct connections to its global operations through a UK base.

Vicky Redwood, Chief UK Economist at Capital Economics, has said that Brexit will not stop the City from prospering. She stated that the City could nonetheless "still prosper if the UK left the EU", noting that London's reputation as a global finance centre predates the Single Market.

The CBI has conceded defeat in its economic arguments to remain in the EU, following the publication of a study it commissioned from PwC, which revealed that economic growth will be higher in the long-term if we leave the EU. It's an admission that higher costs through taxes and regulatory compliance makes us less competitive than we should be.

HSBC and Toyota have declared they are staying in the UK in the event of Brexit.

Lord Blackwell, chairman of Lloyds Banking Group and former advisor to two Prime Ministers, has said that the UK-EU relationship is increasingly unsustainable. He adds that Brexit will NOT hurt the UK economy.

Norway's $830billion wealth fund, the worlds largest, has stated that Brexit is NOT a significant risk. Yngve Slyngstad, CEO of Norges Bank Investment Management, has said "we will continue to be a significant investor in the UK at about the same level as we are today and probably even increasing our investments there going forward no matter what happens."

Willie Walsh, Chief Executive of International Airlines Group, which includes BA, has dismissed the 'remain' campaigns scaremongering and argued that Brexit will have no economic impact.

John Longworth, director-general of the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC), has said Britain would be better off outside the EU. In a speech at the BCC annual conference in London, Mr. Longworth said the UK could create a "brighter economic future for itself" outside the EU. He has since resigned in order to continue his support for Brexit.

One of Britains most influential fund managers, Neil Woodford (BAE Systems, GlaxoSmithKline and BT), has commissioned research from consultancy Capital Economics which shows no lasting negative impact on the UK. It even shows possible economic benefits from Brexit.

Mark Littlewood, director-general of the Institute for Economic Affairs, believes that the UK will be better off outside the EU. He explained his views in a video for the BBC's Daily Politics (10/03/16).

Sir James Dyson, inventor and vacuum cleaner tycoon, has stated he believes the UK should quit the EU.

The boss of Wetherspoons has declared that he believes the UK can thrive outside the EU.

The former HSBC chief executive Michael Geoghegan, and the founders of JML, Reebok and Phones4U all support Brexit, as does the CEO of Legal and General, the CEO of Numis Securities and the boss of Odey Asset Management.

Ruth Lea - economic advisor to the Arbuthnot Banking Group - says the UK should leave "an increasingly dysfunctional EU", and that Britain can thrive post-Brexit.

Jim Mellon - entrepreneur, investor and chairman of Burnbrae Group - supports Brexit, saying the UK should leave Europe before the "inevitable eurozone meltdown".

Frances Dickens - entrepreneur, co-founder and Chief Executive of Astus Group - supports Brexit, saying that Brexit could offer school-leavers a rare opportunity for better jobs, better wages and better chances to set up their own businesses.

Peter Hargreaves, co-founder of FTSE 100 stockbroker Hargreaves Lansdown, has said he supports Brexit. He has said that a British exit from the EU could help stimulate Britain, with a fresh start helping the nation to innovate. He said concerns about leaving the EU were overblown. He has sent a letter to two in three UK households, urging them to back Brexit. In the letter, Mr. Hargreaves urges voters to ignore "heads of big institutions whose cushy lives will be disrupted by change" and listen to entrepreneurs who back Brexit.

The RMT Union will campaign for Brexit from a "pro-austerity, anti-worker" European Union. In a statement, RMT's general secretary Mike Cash said: "EU policies are at odds with the aspirations of this union as the various treaties and directives are demanding the privatisation of our rail and ferry industries". He added that the EU was negotiating secret trade deals "which will decimate our health and education sectors, and hand huge powers to transnational corporations over nation states and their governments".

ASLEF, the train drivers union, is campaigning for Brexit. It says that workers rights offered by Brussels are "far outweighed and undermined by the benefits given to big business and banking".

The 20,000 strong Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union (BFAWU) also supports Brexit.

Winterflood Securities founder, Brian Winterflood, is backing Brexit. His son, Guy Winterflood, is a serial tech-entrepreneur currently running data firm Letyano, and he also backs Brexit. Other son, Mark Winterflood, is a private banker at HSBC and also supports Brexit.

Not that you will hear it as head line news though. Independant imf with help from treasury and Bank of england ha ha ha totally independant not.

 Da Boss wrote:
It's pretty pathetic. This is the same media who will no doubt lament the "lack of a positive vision for Europe" or some crap while laying the doom'n'gloom on thick to try and win the politics of fear game.

So far only the Brexiters are really putting anything positive forward. I personally think they're being unrealistic, but all the same, it's a pretty sad indictment of the political mainstream.

In a way I'm glad that the UK is experiencing this, it may broaden awareness of the crappy tactics in the media. Everyone seemed hunky dory with this crap when they were doing it to Scotland.

The irony is, the same people complaining about IN's scare stories are the same people who said that Scotland going independent would start world war 3.

I'll mention no names. Cough...Gove...cough Bojo...

On a more serious note, I've been doing some reading on what would happen to Scotland after June 23rd.

BREXIT would lead to two scenarios:

1) Support for independence increases, with a possible new referendum, 2) or Scotland gets more powers, such as fishing and agriculture, as the UK government would now be able to devolve them, which only makes the transition to independence more likely. The New Zealand effect.

Britain votes to stay in the EU: only delays Scottish independence for a few years. Last poll was 52/48 in favour of stay.

Scotland is split down the middle, but seeing as the EU vote polls are evenly split, if OUT doesn't win big, then the UK will be split on this issue for years. I cite the aftermath of September 18th 2014 as proof of this.

Conclusion: UK politics is going to be very interesting after June 23rd, regardless of result.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Honestly, th Government isn't about to remove all our rights because we leave the EU.

Have you seen the state of the current Tory government, or indeed the monsters they have waiting in the wings to take over once Cameron inevitably gets pushed out of his little pig pen?

Skull hammer, I think you forgot the mic drop meme.

 General Kroll wrote:

It's utter nonsense to say that simply because zero hour contracts exist, that the eu is responsible. Quite frankly, I would trust Brussels to deal with the problem far more than I would trust the current Tory government.

Fair enough. But that's exceedingly shortsighted of you. The real question is, do you trust the much more unaccountable EU bureaucracy machine more than you do any future British Government?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
It's pretty pathetic. This is the same media who will no doubt lament the "lack of a positive vision for Europe" or some crap while laying the doom'n'gloom on thick to try and win the politics of fear game.

So far only the Brexiters are really putting anything positive forward. I personally think they're being unrealistic, but all the same, it's a pretty sad indictment of the political mainstream.

In a way I'm glad that the UK is experiencing this, it may broaden awareness of the crappy tactics in the media. Everyone seemed hunky dory with this crap when they were doing it to Scotland.

The irony is, the same people complaining about IN's scare stories are the same people who said that Scotland going independent would start world war 3.

I'll mention no names. Cough...Gove...cough Bojo...

On a more serious note, I've been doing some reading on what would happen to Scotland after June 23rd.

BREXIT would lead to two scenarios:

1) Support for independence increases, with a possible new referendum, 2) or Scotland gets more powers, such as fishing and agriculture, as the UK government would now be able to devolve them, which only makes the transition to independence more likely. The New Zealand effect.

Britain votes to stay in the EU: only delays Scottish independence for a few years. Last poll was 52/48 in favour of stay.

Scotland is split down the middle, but seeing as the EU vote polls are evenly split, if OUT doesn't win big, then the UK will be split on this issue for years. I cite the aftermath of September 18th 2014 as proof of this.

Conclusion: UK politics is going to be very interesting after June 23rd, regardless of result.

Someone asked a good question about Scotland on question time last night. One of the major points of the independence campaign was that Scotland would join the European Union and benefit massively from being a smaller country within it (or something like that) if Britain leaving the EU contributes to the eus downfall, as some are suggesting it might, what would happen to Scotland if they were part of it?

I don't mean to jump to conclusions but you seem pro Indy and pro Brexit, so I'm guessing you'd think it'd all be fine, the fella on QT wasn't so sure. He thought a failing eu might harm the Indy campaign and bring Scotland closer to the UK.

As someone who was fairly on the fence about the whole Indy thing, it seemed like an interesting quandary.

I wouldn't be so certain of Scotland getting that much more power as a result of Brexit though, I can imagine the government of the day would be just as slow as this one in passing new powers to Scotland. Have they even implemented half the stuff they promised during the Indy campaign yet?

 General Kroll wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Honestly, th Government isn't about to remove all our rights because we leave the EU.

Have you seen the state of the current Tory government, or indeed the monsters they have waiting in the wings to take over once Cameron inevitably gets pushed out of his little pig pen?

Anything our current (or future) governments do can be unpicked easily enough by a subsequent set of Ministers with a fresh majority. If a Government does something unpopular enough, it gets booted out at the next election, and the party saying that they'll reverse/change course gets power. It's something of a self-fixing issue, you might have to live with something for a period of time, but usually the right thing will out. It's how we've gone from press-ganging members of the Royal Navy and forcing the poor to break rocks for loaves of bread to where we are now.

I know it often seems like our country is broken beyond belief to the people who live here, but having lived under a dictatorship, I know just how damn good we have it over here. Historically, this country has always been riding the front of the wave when it comes to inclusiveness, innovation, and philanthropy, and I don't see that suddenly stopping because *cue panto hiss from left wing* Conservatives got a majority, and pass a few minor unpopular legislative policies.

If we end up nothing more than a cog in the EU machine though, we're no longer in charge of our own direction. We're suddenly more and more accountable to countries in Europe like Poland, which are far more extreme in certain regards. I mean, christ, they're pushing Turkey in at the moment. No thanks. I'll stick with the historically tried and tested for now. I like being part of a European Trade Zone. Not the United States of Europe.

Just to throw something out there for you all to nose through. Hope it clears things up... a little.

This is my bro's work so, good on him

NOTE: if you think this is a reasonable vid, share it around. Spreading the word helps us all

Skullhammer:

The RMT Union will campaign for Brexit from a "pro-austerity, anti-worker" European Union. In a statement, RMT's general secretary Mike Cash said: "EU policies are at odds with the aspirations of this union as the various treaties and directives are demanding the privatisation of our rail and ferry industries". He added that the EU was negotiating secret trade deals "which will decimate our health and education sectors, and hand huge powers to transnational corporations over nation states and their governments".

ASLEF, the train drivers union, is campaigning for Brexit. It says that workers rights offered by Brussels are "far outweighed and undermined by the benefits given to big business and banking".

The 20,000 strong Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union (BFAWU) also supports Brexit.

I was wracking my brains trying to remember if ASLEF were in the Brexit camp, so thanks for reminding me

It's rather telling that some major unions are looking at Brexit as an option.

 Ketara wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Honestly, th Government isn't about to remove all our rights because we leave the EU.

Have you seen the state of the current Tory government, or indeed the monsters they have waiting in the wings to take over once Cameron inevitably gets pushed out of his little pig pen?

Anything our current (or future) governments do can be unpicked easily enough by a subsequent set of Ministers with a fresh majority. If a Government does something unpopular enough, it gets booted out at the next election, and the party saying that they'll reverse/change course gets power. It's something of a self-fixing issue, you might have to live with something for a period of time, but usually the right thing will out. It's how we've gone from press-ganging members of the Royal Navy and forcing the poor to break rocks for loaves of bread to where we are now.

I know it often seems like our country is broken beyond belief to the people who live here, but having lived under a dictatorship, I know just how damn good we have it over here. Historically, this country has always been riding the front of the wave when it comes to inclusiveness, innovation, and philanthropy, and I don't see that suddenly stopping because *cue panto hiss from left wing* Conservatives got a majority, and pass a few minor unpopular legislative policies.

If we end up nothing more than a cog in the EU machine though, we're no longer in charge of our own direction. We're suddenly more and more accountable to countries in Europe like Poland, which are far more extreme in certain regards. I mean, christ, they're pushing Turkey in at the moment. No thanks. I'll stick with the historically tried and tested for now. I like being part of a European Trade Zone. Not the United States of Europe.

^ My point exactly. If a government brings in X, and X is really really bad then all Y has to do is announce to repeal X and Y will win the next election by a landslide. Our government cannot bind itself in contract.


As opposed to the EU, which can and does bind all the countries that make it up in contract.

Indeed, which is why I despair when people say things along the lines of:

"Why would I vote the way Boris/Cameron are?"

"Ugh, not voting on the same side as Farage"

or even the old favourite:

"I don't trust our current government, so I daren't vote to leave the EU"

Etc etc. Turning this into a party political bunfight is the worst thing to do. Boris, Gove, Corbyn, Cameron, Farage, Osbourne, they'll all be gone in a few years give or take. Voted out, sacked or knifed by their own party - pick one.

However, this is beyond party politics and ideology in some respects. Whatever choice we make, we will have to live with those consequences long after the personalities who campaigned at the time have long faded from memory.

Dont thank me mr burning i found that list on a face book post from sky in the comments section, but thought it might intrest some people on here as i didnt know half of whats there, after checking its seems ligit though.

I've been searching for a link or source to this story, but a reliable commentator from twitter has been saying that there will be no exit poll for the EU referendum! WTF!

Now, this happened during the Scottish referendum, and it puzzled me then as well. You would think a vote of this magnitude would have an exit poll.

It's all very strange...

Something to do with concern for it influencing results unfairly I guess?

 Compel wrote:
Something to do with concern for it influencing results unfairly I guess?

Maybe, but every General Election has an exit poll, so why not the EU referendum?

I'm not buying into the more extreme conspiracy theories of you know who deciding the result on the Wednesday

but why the reluctance?

I would suppose, maybe, a referendum only has 2 results really (yes/no). Whereas, hypothetically (albeit not often in reality), there can be a large spread of results, many of which are only relevant to that individual area, rather than the fate of a nation. - EG, some people vote for "Alice," "Jim" or "Bob" as opposed to "Tory," "Labour" or "Lib Dems." (Or any of the other local parties running)

I'm sure google will have a better answer than my random guesses.

Got the government leaflet through and it seemed as clear as mud. Alas the Brexit camp dont really appear to make any sense or factul claims either.

Think at this rate I'm going to possibly sit this vote out. Which is sad as I did it for the Scottish elections as well, however I don't feel well informed enough to make a reasonable decision, I only have a gut feeling.

Zond wrote:
Got the government leaflet through and it seemed as clear as mud. Alas the Brexit camp dont really appear to make any sense or factul claims either.

Think at this rate I'm going to possibly sit this vote out. Which is sad as I did it for the Scottish elections as well, however I don't feel well informed enough to make a reasonable decision, I only have a gut feeling.

Do we want to be part of a Europe where centralized control is taken of our ecomomic, defence, diplomatic and domestic policies? Full federalisation is the aim of the EU and its leaders.

Do you want an independent UK effectively.

Everything else is really just mud slinging and smears at this point.

Zond wrote:
Got the government leaflet through and it seemed as clear as mud. Alas the Brexit camp dont really appear to make any sense or factul claims either.

Think at this rate I'm going to possibly sit this vote out. Which is sad as I did it for the Scottish elections as well, however I don't feel well informed enough to make a reasonable decision, I only have a gut feeling.

Aye. The intended goal (as laid out in the presidents report of the EU) is to gradually take control of this country. I don't want it to. Everything else is so much irrelevant peanuts really.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Skull hammer, I think you forgot the mic drop meme.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Business leaders who are overwhelming self interested. I care more about democracy and national self determination than the profit margins of big corporations and the salaries of CEO's. They could cry me a river about their share prices, and I'll bathe in their tears.

If my country has to endure economic hardship in the short term to win back political independence and sovereignty in the long term, I can live with that.

See, this is the exact same thing that has basically turned this thread into a group of people for the Brexit chatting amongst themselves about how awful the EU is and complaining about "Project Fear" (because there's definitely been absolutely no fearmongering about the EU from the "Leave" capmaign), with maybe one or two people popping in and out occasionally as a voice of dissent.

You have two sets of almost identical opposing evidence. But you dismiss one of them out of hand as being self-interested whilst praising the other for being a feather in the cap of your argument. It makes discussing anything in this thread impossible, because any evidence provided just gets ignored for being biased, or "Project Fear", or self-interested. But the same biased evidence is fine if it agrees with you, and discussions of the number of rapes committed by migrants is fine and dandy, and Boris Johnson backing the EU to set himself up as an alternative to Cameron as PM is just sensible politics.

It's incredibly frustrating.

The interesting thing with this one though, is the people who have started off undecided and watching their journey.

Cameron's got nice photos with that poster claiming the 'cost' of leaving the EU is £4300 'for every household'. Assuming this number is accurate it's a cost to the country that works out at that per household. It's not a cost for households to foot, they've phrased it to make it sound like it's coming directly out of our pockets. Another piece of disinformation to scare.

My belief is that in the long run it won't make a huge difference economically either way. There's a lot of bullshitting going on now about how awful it will be for the UK and Europe, but if the decision is made to leave then countries and companies will make it work, everyone isn't going to hurry to cut off their nose to spite their face just because they didn't like us leaving the EU. It won't be pretty or easy, but it'll work out.

This is just about independence from Europe. My main issue is that there's continual mission creep by the EU beyond helping free trade. That isn't what we signed up for and it will still advance beyond what we agree to remain in now. If we stay in, it will keep creeping along demanding more and bringing us closer together, erasing borders and merging armed forces, not what I want to see.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

This is just about independence from Europe. My main issue is that there's continual mission creep by the EU beyond helping free trade. That isn't what we signed up for and it will still advance beyond what we agree to remain in now. If we stay in, it will keep creeping along demanding more and bringing us closer together, erasing borders and merging armed forces, not what I want to see.

It isnt mission creep, its the stated end goal of the Union. And it is what we signed up for. Its been the aim for decades and every leader signing treaties and documents bring us closer knows this.
It is just conveniently hidden behind talk of vetoes and rebates etc.

And Boris just isnt the man to spell it out...jeez. he almost got it right..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208
"EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's"