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Slightly facetious suggestion, but: Maybe England and Wales should leave the UK. Bear with me. This way 'The UK' (read: Scotland*) can remain in Europe (keeping all of the UK's existing EU privileges), but England & Wales also get what the want by not being in the EU (without dragging Scotland out/to the back of the line with them).
* I don't mention NI because I don't feel I can comment on that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 21:21:47
Selym wrote: Or Westminster turns its back on the voted majority of the UK, and decides to do whatever the SNP wants...
Pfft.
Well that's what normally happens, its just Scotland that usually gets ignored. I don't think that it will happen in the end but the irony is delicious.
I do think it... wasn't constructive... for Sturgeon to immediately make the threat. That helped no-one.
She has said the exact same thing since the referendum was announced, nothing has really changed there. Besides the SNP's chief aim is an independent Scotland and that has never been more likely than now.
Remember that there was a mere 5% difference between Yes and No, how many of those Unionists have now changed their mind? Quite a lot if social media is any guide.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/25 21:19:13
angelofvengeance wrote: Don't know if anyone saw but a senior Labour MP, David Lammy (Tottenham) wants a commons vote to overturn the EU referendum result. Possible political suicide there lol.
His constituents who he is meant to be representing voted to remain and his argument will be that in trying to block Britains exit from the EU he is only doing what he is meant to, presenting his constituents as best he can.
I don't think he will get anyway but I don't think it will negatively effect his chances of being re-elected too badly.
angelofvengeance wrote: Don't know if anyone saw but a senior Labour MP, David Lammy (Tottenham) wants a commons vote to overturn the EU referendum result. Possible political suicide there lol.
I spotted this yes. He's the guy who said at the last general election, when the exit poll results came in showing a Tory majority, that labor would still win. And got really really tetchy when this was questioned. He's a bit of a gakker imo.
That statement by the EU on scottish membership was a strange one for sure, but i suppose it stops any chance of them being accused of trying to influence scotland to leave the UK.
Certainly puts a strange context to an independence referendum - leave without knowing how you would be seen or treated by the (presumably stronger?) 'other' option.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
Da Boss wrote: Knockagh: There is the Unionist paramilitary side to things too - and they are most likely to be annoyed at the prospect of a vote for a united Ireland as McGuinness so stupidly suggested. But I hope you are right and things will stay calm. The main issue was the suppression of civil rights for catholics and misgovernance, and that is no longer an issue. There's no reason for citizens of Northern Ireland who are being treated fairly and given equal opportunity to make trouble (or to want to join the Republic, where they won't have an NHS!)
I live in areas were loyalist/unionist paramilitaries are very prevalent and active in commeration ceremonies, community work and other activities. Neither of the two main organisations have any desire to return to conflict again because the agreement has secured the future within the UK until NI people decide otherwise. Loyalists and unionists will stand by the union no matter what, EU in or out won't matter to them, the union is all that matters.
I'm going back to work for Belfast City council next month, which has a mix of both Catholics and Protestants. I'll tell you guys what the opinions on Brexit from a big chunk of the working class here are.
In a way, republicanism has though tied itself to a much more narrow political outlook, it is 100% left wing, varying in extremes from outright communists to corbyn light but you won't get anything past the centre left anywhere near them. Loyalists and unionists vary massively politically left or right is ok so long as the union is supreme.
So I'm seeing a lot of news that a lot of leave voters are having a change of heart due to protest votes or not understanding the consequences, does that fit in with what people are seeing?
You guys on here are the only "leavers" I've actually encountered (my work/hometome constituencies were ~75% remain), so I'm curious as to how it actually is for leave majority areas.
And if it isn't? There are unionist terrorists as well and they are just as likely to revert back to their old ways as the IRA.
Incidentally 59% of Scots want independence, at least according to this poll. I have no idea of the polls validity, plus its a poll, but the momentum train has left the station. CHOO CHOO.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/25 21:58:10
The democratic will of the people of Northern Ireland that's what unionists argue and persuade for now. If Scotland leave the union that's their choice, it would be tragic like loosing a sibling but I don't believe it will happen but regardless loyalists over here are not moving, 100s of years of a hard fight because of some EU vote.
Knockagh wrote: 100s of years of a hard fight because of some EU vote.
Which is my point, if the will of the public is a united Ireland will Ulster fight and will it be right?
Apparently that poll had 1700 respondents and include DKs, with DKs excluded it became 65/35%. Holy Jeebus........
Nothing points to any change in the will of the people of NI, not in any calculation you could come up with no scenario that the people of NI have turned against the union. So as long as the democratic right of the people is upheld there is no fight necessary.
Herzlos wrote: So I'm seeing a lot of news that a lot of leave voters are having a change of heart due to protest votes or not understanding the consequences, does that fit in with what people are seeing?
From talking to my co-workers who voted Leave they are pretty evenly split into three groups -
1) Voted Leave based upon right wing media and sound bites on immigration and wasted money which would go to the NHS. They were all very much regretting it on Friday after they started to look into what they actually had signed up for and realised that they would have less euros to spend over the summer.
2) Similar to the above but standing by the decision that they made. Didn't seem that wel informed and were quoting fake EU law myths on Friday morning ("we stopped them from taking away our bendy bannas and now children under 8 can blow up balloons again).
3) Very informed people who had usually studied politics at university and understand more of the implications of what an exit vote actually meant (although a few were emailing EU scare stories to other employees in the days leading up to the vote). They are surprised but happy with the result and were very happy when Cameron resigned as it meant Boris might become PM. They also tend to come from very well off backgrounds.
There were also a couple of Leave protest votes gone wrong but not enough to separate into its own group.
The Remainers were split between the furious and the reluctently accepting what had happened and just waiting to see what happened (this last group was mostly comprised of senior staff with enough income that they are unlikely to get into financial trouble).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 22:22:42
If there's one thing that the last two referendums and the last general election have shown, it's that we cannot take a 'poll' as representative unless it shows a huge majority.
I don't think for a moment that over a million people made protest votes for 'leave'.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
SirDonlad wrote: If there's one thing that the last two referendums and the last general election have shown, it's that we cannot take a 'poll' as representative unless it shows a huge majority.
I don't think for a moment that over a million people made protest votes for 'leave'.
I think a lot of people didn't want to admit to being Leave in case they were viewed as racist and a lot of the uncertains were drawn towards Leave due to the more convincing arguments.
Orlanth wrote: Why would a parliament with about 80% in favour of remain want to do that, when the excuse not to sits in front of them.
?
The vast majority of MP's wanted to Remain. The ongoing petition for a 2nd referendum, now at 2.3 million signs, is their excuse to delay proceedings and try again. Because "Democracy".
Possibly but I was thinking along the lines of voting the bill down in the Commons.
The government can activate Article 50 according to the EU anytime, and want it done sooner.
However UK law meant that the UK joined the EEC by act of parliament and a bill would have to be tabled and passed for this to be repealed so the government could legally ask for Article 50 in the EU.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
I found myself in that position and it made for some veeery difficult discussions where i had to go to the laptop to show i wasn't making anything up. It mobilised a lot of people politically and a lot of people in my area revealed their real selves - previously very nice people have started shouting insults at me mid-discussion for no reason other than to 'win' the argument.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 22:31:36
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
angelofvengeance wrote: Don't know if anyone saw but a senior Labour MP, David Lammy (Tottenham) wants a commons vote to overturn the EU referendum result. Possible political suicide there lol.
I don't think its suicidal at all, it is the last genuine hope for Remainers that this gets enough support from MP's with the balls to enact it. And I think the public will forgive them, biut asc Da Boss says if his constituency is Remain and I think Lammys is then there is no reason not to try.
Outside of elections plebiscites are not normally legally binding. The Scottish referendumm was binding on Westminster, this referendum is not. its advisory.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
This just turned up on my Facebook feed and is apparently from the Guardian comments section. Maybe Dave is a genuis after all.....
Spoiler:
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
Herzlos wrote: So I'm seeing a lot of news that a lot of leave voters are having a change of heart due to protest votes or not understanding the consequences, does that fit in with what people are seeing?
You guys on here are the only "leavers" I've actually encountered (my work/hometome constituencies were ~75% remain), so I'm curious as to how it actually is for leave majority areas.
Speaking for Welwyn/Hatfield (Majority Leave), the atmosphere is of grim outlook for the short term but hope for the future. My home was rather against the demographic - parents voted Remain, I voted Brexit (I'm 20), but overall we feel that if we can survive the next 3-ish years, we'll likely be fine.
After extensive discussion on Friday with my work colleagues, we're of the opinion that we should look to opportunities that arise from this, rather than stressing out through our faces about what could have been.
As for change of heart, I've seen a number of Remainers seeing the potential upside - essentially that we've called an EU-centric economic disaster bright and early instead of any more critical period, while our Brexiters are both annoyed that they got the winning vote, and pleased to see the upsides picked out by our Remainers.
When I voted Leave, on the Scottish Independence Referendum...I didn't vote to give our newly-achieved Sovereignty over to Germans and French....a Fourth Reich. What would be the point? If we are to leave in the case of Brexit (or if we did before) we should make do on our own. There is no point breaking away from the United Kingdom otherwise. If we can't do that, we simply aren't a feasible nation.
When I voted Leave, on the EU Referendum....I didn't cast my vote, just for the result to be constantly circumvented through referendum as is the case with the Petitions online. I do not, and will not believe in the Will of the European goal. A USA model is not feasible at this stage in the game without inflicting tyranny on the sovereignty of member states (Unless, your a German.) It is completely subversive. Who is the Washington DC in this scenario?
Why do we choose a federal model, when the EEC was perfectly feasible? Great Britain as a whole...was very keen on the idea of a united europe through Trade Deals. We began to distance ourselves more and more, as the new 'European Union' began to constantly extend its powers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 23:00:02
Da Boss wrote: I'd like to know what the justification here from Brexiters for dragging Scotland out of the EU against it's will is, seeing as the country voted to remain. I thought you guys were all for democracy and so on?
Seems like this is the opposite of your usual rhetoric. I've noted this disconnect before, obviously, but it's especially glaring now.
Because it's called Authoritarian Nationalism and that this is actually being discussed as an actual course of action is terrifying. I cannot actually believe it is being discussed in a moderate forum. These ideals lead to a type of extremism that is extremely dangerous as has been shown by history many times.
Scotland should be able to decide its future by the elected members of its parliament. They may ask for a referendum to gauge the mood of the populace but in the end it is their elected members to decide what they think is best for the future of a beautiful country and I would be sad to see them leave but it is their choice. Our government should also take the referendum as advice; we vote them in to make decisions that should be in the best interest of the country as they have the time and resources to fully understand the implications. They can avoid rhetoric and populist notions for the hard information - the fact that our government stooped so low in the debate we have just had unfortunately just shows how poor our government has become and is a good example of why referendums should not be used to determine the future of a whole nation and its populace now and for generations to come.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Silent Puffin? wrote: This just turned up on my Facebook feed and is apparently from the Guardian comments section. Maybe Dave is a genuis after all.....
Spoiler:
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
I woke up confused this morning, as to whether Brexit was right after all. After reading this, my reaction was "Bugger!"
I guess deep down I have a real preference for Brexit...
Legion: Dark Angels 
