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 big mek crazygit wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Removal of the Green Tide Formation was a harsh and unnecessary change I feel :(

It still exists however, you just have to use the one from the old book.

And if I'm not wrong, you can choose to use any of the formations in the Orkurion as seperate formations instead of using them in that detatchment, right? If so, you could just spam MSU Tankbustas in trukks (they probably didn't get much out of the normal Mob Rule anyway), slap a few oddboyz into the Green Tide, and there you go!

Umm, no. You can only MSU the Tankbustas if you take a core choice. Otherwise yeah, it'd be great to have an army of nothing but Bustas and Mek Gunz.

Fun math;
Blitz Brigaide, council, ork warband. 1718 points.

With str 10 rams.. What do we upgrade?

MA DLS warboss next to Ghaz would help make sure everything stays on the WAAAGH!!! and fearless. Lots of scoring units.

S10 ramming that sounds great doesn't it. It must be one of the best formation buffs out there. Who doesn't like to ram : P

Do you know what their ramming str was before that upgrade ?
Av 14 => 14/2 =7
Tank => +1
Deff rolla => +2 AV = +1
-----------------------------+
9

or to make it even better what deff rollas used to do before the 7th edition codex ?


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 Rismonite wrote:
MA DLS warboss next to Ghaz would help make sure everything stays on the WAAAGH!!! and fearless. Lots of scoring units.

None of them have objective secured. And you are spending 600+ points on a single unit if you want ghaz. You are way better of using multiple cads if you want scoring units.



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 big mek crazygit wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Removal of the Green Tide Formation was a harsh and unnecessary change I feel :(

It still exists however, you just have to use the one from the old book.

And if I'm not wrong, you can choose to use any of the formations in the Orkurion as seperate formations instead of using them in that detatchment, right? If so, you could just spam MSU Tankbustas in trukks (they probably didn't get much out of the normal Mob Rule anyway), slap a few oddboyz into the Green Tide, and there you go!

The Speculist aux isn't a formation. Just a part of the Ghazcurion same goes or speed freaks and big mek stuff. Its just a lazy way to include all the stuff that isn't in a formation.
now each of those units cost you an aux slot in the Ghazcurion. Making spamming tankbusta's really inefficient and expensive in this way.

XC18 wrote:
Yes. The Ghazkcurion doesn't fix anything for the orks, but it brings new toys we can try to play with, that's how I see it. (otherwise I'd be depressed)

Actually, you can run a detachment that allows WAAAGH every turn after the first which is in the codex. No WAAAGH! 1 turn - no big deal, and HOW only if you roll 10+ - no big deal. But you don't get awful +2 for mob rule and don't get forced to die in challenges. Which is a big deal. So, unless you're focused on fearless orks with Ghaz council, the codex waaagh band is superior than orkarion waaagh band.


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Also, it's not specified what happens when you roll 5 or 6 on the mob rule table. Cause mob rule only includes results from 1 to 6. And +2 modifier brings us over 6. What happens, does it get down to 6? Do we fail? Do we pass?

How about this

Core
Waaagh band
Warboss: Pk, BP, eavy armour, Lukky stikk 119p
mek 15p

Meganobz 120p

Grots 35p

10boyz + Nob, PK, Trukk RR 136p
10boyz + Nob, PK, Trukk RR 136p
10boyz + Nob, BC, Trukk RR 116p

18 Boyz 108p

19 Shoota boyz 133p
19 Shoota boyz 133p

1 Command
Oddboyz
1 Painboy 50p

Auxiliary
Blitz brigade
5 Battlewagons RR, Rokkit 600p

Auxiliary
Speshulists
10 Tankbustas 3 bomb squigs 145p

Total 1846p

So the Warboss and painboy joins in with the 18 boyz in a battlewagon
Meganobz in battlewagon
They deploy normal with the trukkerboyz

Tankbustas in battlewagon, and shoota boyz in battlewagons, they scout forward to get in range of shooting. Then they can move 6" in the movement phase and still shoot at full BS
The others rush forward and tries to get into assault as quickly as possible.
Second turn the shoota boyz can also get into assaults if needed.

Thoughts?

There's no real benefit of every turn waaagh with blitz brigade. You'll be in charge range turn 2 anywayz. Also, i think that CAD would be superior as you'll need VSG to protect your numerous trukks.

 koooaei wrote:
There's no real benefit of every turn waaagh with blitz brigade. You'll be in charge range turn 2 anywayz. Also, i think that CAD would be superior as you'll need VSG to protect your numerous trukks.

You got 3 trukks and 2 battlewagons that you can charge out of the first turn. Why wouldn't that be a benefit? At higher points they would of course have boarding planks as well.

Maybe change it up so that the meganobz ride a trukk instead and put the boyz from that in a battlewagon.

You can't charge out of blitz brigade after scout. And than, who'd deploy close enough for you to charge? And don't forget, your boyz just get nerfed mob rule without Ghaz.

Maybe I did not express myself clear enough. This would be my strategy.

3 Battlewagons with shoota boyz and tankbustas will scout.
2 Battlewagons will deploy normal along with the trukkboyz. When they don't scout you can use them as normal. The reason why I want to use battlewagons is because of the mob rule and trukks tend to get destroyed much easier than battlewagons. Even if a trukk gets glanced to death the pinning check might hurt the trukkerboyz a lot.

The scouting battlewagon also makes it possible to protect the tankbustas better and get them in range with their rokkits and bomb squigs. If their army castles up at the end of their deployment zone, fine! I will be able to take all the objectives outside of their deployment first turn. The second turn 2 units of shoota boyz will for sure be able to assault deep into the bottom of the enemys deployment zone.

If the enemy get first turn they will have to deal with the more expendable shoota boyz first turn. I would try to place the tankbusta battlewagon in between the shoota boy battlewagons so it will be harder to shoot it down for the enemy.

Usually me and my friends don't play deathstars so the council of waagh would be a bit overkill for us. The council also costs so much so I will be more limited with my other options. Maybe in a 2500p game or more.

even if you're opponent deploys far enough forward for you to get a turn 1 charge... shooting at them first will harm your chances of getting into combat with them. So go all shooting or all combat I reckon. I don't see the point in taking trying to make a list that can waagh first turn if it includes scouting battlewagons.

BAN wrote:
even if you're opponent deploys far enough forward for you to get a turn 1 charge... shooting at them first will harm your chances of getting into combat with them. So go all shooting or all combat I reckon. I don't see the point in taking trying to make a list that can waagh first turn if it includes scouting battlewagons.

Yeah, I'd commit to one focus or another, really.

BAN wrote:
even if you're opponent deploys far enough forward for you to get a turn 1 charge... shooting at them first will harm your chances of getting into combat with them. So go all shooting or all combat I reckon. I don't see the point in taking trying to make a list that can waagh first turn if it includes scouting battlewagons.

From my experience you need a balance of the two. You need both shooting and assaulting. Almost all ork weapons are assault weapons. There is almost no reason to not shoot. If you are afraid you would not make a charge by shooting a unit, you might not even be close enough to get the charge off. If you don't shoot and fail the assault, that's a failed turn. Even in some of my list where I have tons of foot guys that are just wanting to assault, I still take lootas, artiliery and dakka jets to provide fire support as I rush forward. Plus you might be able knock some units out of their transports and open them up to being assaulted.

Looked at it, made multiple list.
Conclusion:
When using GAZ -> go for it.
Else -> Use ork warband formation out of the ork codex if you like to waaagh a lot.

Any terrain & decent deployment of your opponent will feth up your chances of foot slogging turn 1 charges anyway.
+ you do not want to face the worse kind of mob rule.

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 Glitcha wrote:
. There is almost no reason to not shoot. If you are afraid you would not make a charge by shooting a unit, you might not even be close enough to get the charge off..

Lol this isn't my experience at all. Changing the charge distance from 7" to 8" or even worse 9" by shooting at the unit will greatly effect your chance on a succesfull charge and those few dead space marine or eldar critter or tau fire warrior will hardly matter in combat

My though was to shoot at those units which I couldn't assault because of the reach, or those units which I maybe want to weaken before assaulting. An army which only consists of slugga n choppa boyz would have zero tactical flexibility, and I don't like spam. I'm not a big fan of bringing 5 battlewagons either.

So I guess I don't even like the concept of Great Waaagh detachment.. Just trying to figure out som alternative builds which will work in some way. If the walkers wasn't so bad I would consider the Goff killmob and the Dredmob.

I will stick to ordinary CAD until there is some fun way to run this detachment.

I think that I'm going to stick with my current Battlewagon orks lead by Grukk.

I'll have to try the ghazzy start because while it seems like a lot of fun before constant waagh it wasn't worth the points. Now it might be worth it. Throw a warboss with the lucky stikk in to tank anything not ap2 on his 2 up rerollable and another warboss in mega armor with da super cybork to tank for the other side of the squad with his EW and give the big mek the MFF. Throw it in a trukk and run it up field asap. It sounds like a ton of fun to me lol.

I think its worth it if you have stormboyz... they actually have a good chance of making a turn 1 charge with a waagh.



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and that s if they roll average

BAN wrote:
I think its worth it if you have stormboyz... they actually have a good chance of making a turn 1 charge with a waagh.



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and that s if they roll average

The main issue with that is we can't really take any sizable/worthwhile stormboyz mobz in a Ghazcurion since the Council of WAAAGH! and WAAAGH!-band cost so much to make them worth taking.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Who doesn't like to ram : P

I don't - primarily because you can't ram before or after disembarking, and if you're close enough to ram something, you had better be dropping off your payload instead. And my vehicles tend to not survive very long after unloading their cargo, so they don't get a chance to ram regardless. That's my experience, at least.

And, hell, str 9, str10, it's not that meaningful in either case. If only deffrollas weren't useless.......

You know, I barely use battlewagons anymore. I find that trukks perform a similar role most of the time, and tend to survive about as long for a fraction of the points. Or maybe I'm still miffed about the deffrolla change.

If this formation didn't have the Ghazzy crap special Rules I might consider it, but at this point I'm asking myself why not just take the separate Formations with a CAD? They are just formations after all.


I'm just surpised at the level of fail this has about it, just the layers. It's like peeling away the top ones and finding out the worse is still inside. I mean I would totally be doing this formation and maybe even build towards it one day, but hopy crap this is just stupid.

Issue isn't speed with the orkurian is durability, if it goes second to a drop pod alpha strike army, it get murdered more so than it does now because of da boss is watchin. Heck, if it goes first it still get murdered because of null deploy.

The Warband adds nothing since it has the same rules as the orkurian.

Best bet is to still CAD and maybe use some of the formations out side the orkurian.

What orks needed was durability not speed. We had the speed.

 big mek crazygit wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Removal of the Green Tide Formation was a harsh and unnecessary change I feel :(

It still exists however, you just have to use the one from the old book.

Sure. But then we'll face Mind Shackle Scarabs again, and Wave Serpent spam on top of Scatbike spam , etc.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Who doesn't like to ram : P

I don't - primarily because you can't ram before or after disembarking, and if you're close enough to ram something, you had better be dropping off your payload instead. And my vehicles tend to not survive very long after unloading their cargo, so they don't get a chance to ram regardless. That's my experience, at least.

And, hell, str 9, str10, it's not that meaningful in either case. If only deffrollas weren't useless.......

You know, I barely use battlewagons anymore. I find that trukks perform a similar role most of the time, and tend to survive about as long for a fraction of the points. Or maybe I'm still miffed about the deffrolla change.

Writing some sarcasm failed : P
Ramming sucks in the current edition.

My question is, If I were to use the green tide, would it be able to WAAAGH turn one or not?
Would it be a separate detachment?

BAN wrote:
I think its worth it if you have stormboyz... they actually have a good chance of making a turn 1 charge with a waagh.

I do have ~100 storm boyz that I never finished painting. Is there an actual build that would be worth it ? I know I was stupid enough to buy into the whole big blob of strom boyz formation. ( hint it doesnt work : P )
Considering that my opponent isn't an idiot and actually looks at my list. So lets assume that he doesn't deploy at 24" when I have the first turn with an army that can't handle them in assault but actually calculates my average charge range before he starts deploying.


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 warhead01 wrote:
My question is, If I were to use the green tide, would it be able to WAAAGH turn one or not?
Would it be a separate detachment?

(Lets ignore the can we still field a green tide discussion.)
Turn 1 waagh only works if the warlord is in the Ghazcurion. Green tide isn't part of the Ghazcurion. On top of that you would probably not be able to afford any power claw if you fielded both the green tide and a Core of ghaz.

That's what I was thinking I just wanted another opinion other than my own.
My group play large games so points aren't a huge concern.

If you're taking ten men in a Trukk for MSU spam with this formation - if a Trukk explodes, that's 10-12 S4 AP- hits, half of which wound.

You are then forced to take a morale test, which if you fail, you are rolling on Ghaz mob rule, which is a minimum of D3+3 S4 hits, which is at minimum 4 S4 hits, or 5 on average.

The casualties from the explosion alone would almost certainly trigger a casualty test, making a mob rule result and the resultant 2 casualties from the chart leave the unit below combat strength.

I thought everyone decided long ago that 'eavy Armour was a requirement for Trukk mobs

I usually point eavy armour on my Slugga Boyz. If they are going into combat might as well give them a decent save.

That includes footsloggers. I stopped cheesing and optmising lists eons ago. I don't bring power lists unless I'm up against one of the big four, or against friends who are trying to cheese their lists.

 TedNugent wrote:
If you're taking ten men in a Trukk for MSU spam with this formation - if a Trukk explodes, that's 10-12 S4 AP- hits, half of which wound.

You are then forced to take a morale test, which if you fail, you are rolling on Ghaz mob rule, which is a minimum of D3+3 S4 hits, which is at minimum 4 S4 hits, or 5 on average.

Actually, the D3+3 hits are taken only if the mob is more than 10boys, which is not the case. If no nob, they will simply fall back or get pinned without additional casualty (from the morale test, that is)

I never use eavy armor. I have been tempted but there is just so much that ignores that 4+ save around here. Plus I'd rather have the extra body for footslogging. Just personal opinion though. I was tempted to do an all ard boy green tide and have the boys pretend to be necrons with shootas as well lol.