Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Frontline has posted the Q1 poll. Vote at the link below.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/22/itc-2016-season-q1-update-poll/

Update 26 Feb:
Reading some comments on the FLG website and I saw Reecius post the following:

OK, nm, trying to get the data verified but day is running short. The shipments coming in late burned a day on us.

So far for sure:

1,850pts
3 Detachments
ITC Faction will be the detachment with the most points in it
Yes to Chaos Knight with Legacies
No to Eldar Corsair Jetbikes shooting then scooting in overwatch

The rest to come very soon! Sorry for the delay.

Aww, no option for lowering detachment amount?

Cheers for this.

Submitted, some nerfs some buffs. Would have liked to see Gargantuan ruling applied to MCs/FMCs too but I'll take this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:
Aww, no option for lowering detachment amount?

Yeah, I saw this too. Weird. I guess people just want to run their Thunderdome xD

Honestly, I love the idea of a two detachment limit. It means that the guys playing Inquisition + Grey Knights, Sisters + Inquisition, Inquisition + Guard, Harlies + Eldar or DEldar, ect. can keep their thing, but makes Marines less good.

From my own polling, I predict 1500 wins in a landslide.

Same, Althought I think 4 will feel so unwieldy no one will use it TBH

I personally voted for keeping 3 detachments and 1500 pts, as well as GMC's needing 25% obscured. I wish FMC's in flyer mode also needed 25% to get a save was up for a vote, but it's not =\. Sad to see the community doesn't even get to vote on the Piranha Firestorm Wing coming back and leaving in the same turn, although I'm sure they'd vote to keep it from doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also wish ITC would track all detachments in an army, not just 'primary.' So if there was an army that was 60% DE, 35% Eldar, and 5% inquision, they would be shown as DE/Eldar/Inq. That would make analysis of events MUCH easier from a data standpoint.

I'm expecting the Ghostkeel nerf to stick. Anything that hurts Tau really.

I'm adamantly against it and I hope the system works, but I've seen it fail too many times to have any real faith.

I voted for it because I don't think it's a nerf. i read the rule, and to me it says they use it as a unit. So yeah, in my opinion this is an actual RAW debate, though I'd rather not get into the debate here. I will say I would like to see if we can get it changed to a two detachment limit instead of 3.

Except it specifies that the model uses the effect. So a unit uses it, and then one model in the unit uses it. Which leaves the other two ghostkeels with their charges in a unit of three. They don't all use them at once. That's how I see it and I've made a strong case for it that will likely just be forgotten somewhere on the forum. Nerfing this rule will likely see Ghotskeels drop off the radar as a viable unit completely in the ITC.

I've read your case, and disagree. again, not getting into the argument, just agreeing to dissagree and saying that not all of us are just out to nerf tau, a lot of us just have different interpretations

Sad the we didn't get a chance to re-vote the Hunter Contingent. I think the Nova ruling is the appropriate one:

Coordinated Firepower and Interaction with Unit-Wide Buffs - The Signature Systems and similar unit wide effects transfer via the coordinated fire rule. Unit Wide effects apply to all contributing units, however only models, or weapons in the case of Gargantuan Creatures, firing at the target of the coordinated firepower attack gain the effect of applicable buffs through coordinated firepower. As such, contributing units that make use of Target Locks or GC Split Fire rules do not gain the buffs on those shots that don’t go at the primary target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:
I voted for it because I don't think it's a nerf. i read the rule, and to me it says they use it as a unit. So yeah, in my opinion this is an actual RAW debate, though I'd rather not get into the debate here. I will say I would like to see if we can get it changed to a two detachment limit instead of 3.

Except the model is paying for a benefit it can never use. I understand your view, but it doesn't make it right. To date, Tau has received the most nerfs vs. buffs of any army in the 7.5 update. /sigh

This cant be right, they dident even pre nerf the ork decursion by saying they cant charge turn one, and they dident remove any options in the farsight enclaves redone book.

Oh thats right, they aren't going to vote for those, just do it.

TWC + 3 units of min Wulfen have the possibility of giving the TWC a move 24" + run 6" + 2d6 Charge with fleet. The Orks can wait


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Nerfing this rule will likely see Ghotskeels drop off the radar as a viable unit completely in the ITC.

The communities complaint about Riptide spam will just get louder as thats all we are left with for truly competetive. Riptide Wings in different variations. meh!

 thejughead wrote:
TWC + 3 units of min Wulfen have the possibility of giving the TWC a move 24" + run 6" + 2d6 Charge with fleet. The Orks can wait


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Nerfing this rule will likely see Ghotskeels drop off the radar as a viable unit completely in the ITC.

The communities complaint about Riptide spam will just get louder as thats all we are left with for truly competetive. Riptide Wings in different variations. meh!

Maybe the occasional Stormsurge. Otherwise Riptides and Broadesides till the end of time.

Posting this on dakka is like giving especially slow paste eating kindergarten kids the ability to vote on world issues. ITC just needs a panel of people that actually play the game and know what they are talking about.

Guys, the hell are you talking about? the ghostkeel is still incredible, both on it's own and in any of the formations it exists in. it's a tanky as hell MC that can sit on objectives, has good guns, easy ablative wounds, and in the OSC and the one with the stormsurge it's totally bonkers. Really, a unit of them being bad changes nothing, as realistically MSUing them is better anyway.

The OSC isn't up to snuff in the current meta at the ITC though. The top two Tau lists didn't utilize it at all. Stealth Suits just aren't survivable enough to justify themselves. It's a good formation, but not great. The only key thing that even seen Tau relevant in the current meta was the top Tau list using a Y'vahrarh + Riptide Wing as his main component to his force. Watch that get nerfed too.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm terrified of Markerlight-less Ignores Cover, Twin-Linked, BS4, Always-Back-Armor-Hitting melta guns. Though, I play marines, so maybe it's just me...

Until you shoot at the stealth suits an and blow them to pieces in less than heartbeat. Leaving only the Ghostkeels left which don't pull their weight enough on their own to justify it. Most people just ignore the Ghostkeels from being too tanky, but they rarely inflict serious damage to their opponents either not without formation benefits. Removing their ability to tank is going to see them never taken except as a one only model or in separate units which against dilutes their power since no +1 BS for having 3 in a single unit.

W\e man. I personally would never leave home without an OSC as Tau just because the Gladius and Knights exist. Heck, I considered Tau for a while when trying to decide what Army I would play, and the ghostkeel came into my calculations a ton.

I'm guessing you didn't see the recent tournament results of the Tau? Its pretty grim for how "OP" they are only two lists made high enough to be considered good, and even than none in the top 10. The top Tau player placed 12. The next placed 18th.

LVO 2016 rankings. These corroborate what I seen happening the last few months. Tau have not been placing or winning in any major ITC tournaments. I've been keeping a hawk eye on it since the new update came out in October. Even most of the video "evidence" Reccius posted was of the new Tau getting wrecked over and over again with the occasional win and yet he insists they are a super potent army that was so so deadly they had to be nerfed. He was even playing against the "OP" unerfed version and the Tau still couldn't win. It's only dropped off since the Hunter Contingent ruling about coordinated firepower.

I feel all of this fear and bias is crippling the Tau's tournament prospects. Not to mention the outright nerfs.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y28px3mgjeergdn/AADDpUf3n_u2QfkiYzDzHSh0a?dl=0

Edit
I've even tried to contact Reccius and the ITC about this stuff and just get a standard form letter. Much like GW does. I was reasonable about it and wanted to know why they felt the need to make these decisions, but I didn't get any reasonable replies back and was ignored.


I want to believe the ITC is fair and unbiased and that they will take the time to answer and logically respond to all my questions and put my issues to rest, but all I get is silence.

Please. Yes, Tau are powerful. No they aren't as powerful as Eldar, Necrons, or well played superfriend marines. I'm not on board with everything ITC does, but a lot of the main problem is still with the CORE game. All ITC does is turn the game from being heavy into death stars, into heavy MSU. The same balancing issues are there throughout.

I think double surge will be the new vogue. I don't want to run riptide wing though so I too hope the ghostkeel nerf falls by the wayside

I actually think that one player going undefeated, possibly the other (thought i haven't checked into their standings yet) skews the data quite heavily. Tau are a gunline army, and that doesn't work in the ITC format. However, they have ways to fix this, and I expect them to show up quickly now that the LVO is over. Heck, I personally think the OSC is the direct counter to the Gladius, which with it's amry-wide obsec and tank spam goes a long way to hurting the ability for the Tau to take objectives. Either way, I expect to see a shift to games played at 1650, if not 1500, and the results will be very different then.

 Orock wrote:
This cant be right, they dident even pre nerf the ork decursion by saying they cant charge turn one, and they dident remove any options in the farsight enclaves redone book.

1: Them charginf turn one is mathematically difficult and your opponent needs to be an idiot to let it happen
2: Farsight is just a reprint
3: Stop with the damnt negativity dude, you need to take a chill pill

OSC is not as strong as ghost keel wing where that formation is basically a support unit helping give the squishy units a chance. Taking it cheap it fine, but it's not an offensive build.

Using the OSC requires risk as you have to get close to perform it snowflake leaving you at risk of not getting your 2+ save. The countermeasures mitigated that risk for one enemy shooting.

 Swampmist wrote:
I actually think that one player going undefeated, possibly the other (thought i haven't checked into their standings yet) skews the data quite heavily. Tau are a gunline army, and that doesn't work in the ITC format. However, they have ways to fix this, and I expect them to show up quickly now that the LVO is over. Heck, I personally think the OSC is the direct counter to the Gladius, which with it's amry-wide obsec and tank spam goes a long way to hurting the ability for the Tau to take objectives. Either way, I expect to see a shift to games played at 1650, if not 1500, and the results will be very different then.

Why would anyone go OSC when its nefed though? I don't get it. If people already aren't using it and I've seen tournaments where people ran it and they just don't place well. It might be good against those two things but it suffers against anything else. Nothing your saying logically supports your choice to nerf the Ghostkeel. It's even a little at odds with one another. You want the OSC to be used but your going to try and nerf it?

 Swampmist wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I'm terrified of Markerlight-less Ignores Cover, Twin-Linked, BS4, Always-Back-Armor-Hitting melta guns. Though, I play marines, so maybe it's just me...

See that is not a valid reason to vote for Tau nerfs. When the vote to allow double Demi company came up, did people shoot it down just because it was going to be very good? No. If it breaks the game (old invis or 2+ re-rollable) then it should be changed. But this unbiased fear of perceived power (which has not shown itself in GT results whatsoever, unlike Demi company marines, for example) is just fear of another army being good. If you start voting to nerf armies that you don't play because you think they are strong and need nerfs to bring them down to your army's level, you should probably just go all out wheelchair. The crutch that you've been using isn't going to cut it for long.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
I actually think that one player going undefeated, possibly the other (thought i haven't checked into their standings yet) skews the data quite heavily. Tau are a gunline army, and that doesn't work in the ITC format. However, they have ways to fix this, and I expect them to show up quickly now that the LVO is over. Heck, I personally think the OSC is the direct counter to the Gladius, which with it's amry-wide obsec and tank spam goes a long way to hurting the ability for the Tau to take objectives. Either way, I expect to see a shift to games played at 1650, if not 1500, and the results will be very different then.

Why would anyone go OSC when its nefed though? I don't get it. If people already aren't using it and I've seen tournaments where people ran it and they just don't place well. It might be good against those two things but it suffers against anything else. Nothing your saying logically supports your choice to nerf the Ghostkeel. It's even a little at odds with one another. You want the OSC to be used but your going to try and nerf it?

No he's just voting with fear tactics. See his above post "nerf Tau because I'm afraid I'll lose to them"

again, I don't see it as a nerf. Its how i read it RAW, and so I voted for it that way. I honestly don't care how it turns out, simply because the rule is vague! We have differing opinions on it, as do many here on Dakka, so it is by all counts a vague rule. As such, I don't honestly care how they rule it as long as there is a rule. and maybe i'm wrong about the OSC, I have no idea I've never played with or against it. Just going by what I've seen, read and theorized. Either way though, the ITC is putting it, and many things, up to vote, so can we stop complaining about them not doing so, since they are doing it?

On a more negative note (yes, I am capable being both positive and negative with this ), why was there not an option for less detachments, and do you guys think we should ask them to add it to the next poll? As I've said, I feel that a two detachment limit would be a lot better than three, or god forbid more, and would be happy to see it get toned down instead of up.

EDIT: Luke, when did i ever say i voted for it as a nerf? again, I voted for it as what I SEE AS RAW. On your other point, I would be happy to nerf the gladius. In my opinion, the gladius should only be for Ultrasmurfs, for example, as it seems custom made for them, and I personally never run it anymore because I don't play them. Heck, I'd love to nerf the free transports thing, would add some variety. I ALSO want to change the detachment limit to two, which is a direct nerf to my own faction. so no, I'm not voting based on fear, I'm voting based on the game being a gakky mess that needs fixing, and the ITC are some of the only ones willing to do it.