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gungo wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
So now that the results have been posted, I think we can all cease with the sky is falling. I play Tau and the vote literally went exactly how I voted except for the Corsairs rule (I thought they could use it in overwatch as well but oh well haha)

To be fair I am sure there will be unhappy tau about the piranha rulings.
And it's essentially it's a double nerf to eldar with corsairs and wraithknights taking a hit.
It also sounds like chaos armies got a decent boost.

The votes were all mostly clear with no real 50/50 vote. Overall this seems good for 40k as a whole although I'm kinda worried about what shenanigans can be pulled off with legacies on knights as I haven't seen anyone play with those combos before especially things like essentially never failing a psychic power again or crazy high invul on a knight (although I don't think that combo will work).

The relic that gives a bonus to the invuln save says that Khorne daemon models around the vehicle get +1 to their invuln save. It doesn't say that the vehicle gets the bonus.

You can get the 2++ re-rollable on the knight without the relics. Grimoire+cursed earth on tzeentch knight. So the worst abuse of the knight wasn't even on the ballot.

How about a fething link to the results?

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/29/signals-from-the-frontline-413/

Hooray for the Ghostkeel!

And thanks for the link, I had searched for it but honestly found it a bit hard to navigate to - overall the results are pretty clear on the votes that mattered (rather than the second follow-up questions which didn't come into play based on the results of the first). Democracy

They cant act like the air armada as they aren't flyers! They are 2 hp, open top, and armor 10 vehicles, the formation is useless unless you go first in which it becomes average.

If you go first you shoot your seekers second turn you get attacked by anti-tank unit 1-3 die and they cannot be revived! You come back with less than what you started with, I think its better to have more units on board than leave to get 4 drones or 4 seeker missiles.

My advice stay away from this formation, you were only gaining 2 drone units and 2 bonus seeker missiles uses in a 5 turn game prior to the vote. Now that models can not come back its even worse, just a horrible formation stay away your better off just leaving the piranhas on the board and using them to claim objectives.

Must...buy...more Ghostkeels, but the urge to Mad Max a Battlewagon is too great!

At least we still got our Ghostkeels. I doubt we'll ever see the Firestream wing now though.

 CKO wrote:
They cant act like the air armada as they aren't flyers! They are 2 hp, open top, and armor 10 vehicles, the formation is useless unless you go first in which it becomes average.

If you go first you shoot your seekers second turn you get attacked by anti-tank unit 1-3 die and they cannot be revived! You come back with less than what you started with, I think its better to have more units on board than leave to get 4 drones or 4 seeker missiles.

My advice stay away from this formation, you were only gaining 2 drone units and 2 bonus seeker missiles uses in a 5 turn game prior to the vote. Now that models can not come back its even worse, just a horrible formation stay away your better off just leaving the piranhas on the board and using them to claim objectives.

The air armada is also 2hp av10 vehicles they both jink except the air armada costs way more and doesn't have drones just bombs and hull that replenish. It's also not competitve because it costs a crap ton for subpar models. I think it would be fine if piranha respawned but the rules on respawning wasn't exactly clear either. It's not like the ITC community are the only ones who read it that way nova doesn't respawn either.

We cant compare a flyer to a land speeder, one has a built in defense you know the snapshot thing. Anyways just cause one formation is one way doesn't mean we should make the other just like it.

That line of thought is how Dark Eldar, Eldar's best friend got a 10 point hq.

bogalubov wrote:

The relic that gives a bonus to the invuln save says that Khorne daemon models around the vehicle get +1 to their invuln save. It doesn't say that the vehicle gets the bonus.

The legacy says "Daemon of Khorne within 6" get +1 invul". The vehicle is within 6" isn't it?

gungo wrote:

 CKO wrote:
They cant act like the air armada as they aren't flyers! They are 2 hp, open top, and armor 10 vehicles, the formation is useless unless you go first in which it becomes average.

If you go first you shoot your seekers second turn you get attacked by anti-tank unit 1-3 die and they cannot be revived! You come back with less than what you started with, I think its better to have more units on board than leave to get 4 drones or 4 seeker missiles.

My advice stay away from this formation, you were only gaining 2 drone units and 2 bonus seeker missiles uses in a 5 turn game prior to the vote. Now that models can not come back its even worse, just a horrible formation stay away your better off just leaving the piranhas on the board and using them to claim objectives.

The air armada is also 2hp av10 vehicles they both jink except the air armada costs way more and doesn't have drones just bombs and hull that replenish. It's also not competitve because it costs a crap ton for subpar models. I think it would be fine if piranha respawned but the rules on respawning wasn't exactly clear either. It's not like the ITC community are the only ones who read it that way nova doesn't respawn either.

If you mean NOVA the tournament, they are playing Piranhas by the rules, meaning "the unit returns at full strength" literally means what it says - the dead models come back. NOVA doesn't typically do nerfs, and they aren't doing them here.

It's an absurd result to a vote, but it's not surprising - you ask people to vote on something, who aren't informed and don't even know the rule, and the majority don't play that army and have heard its a busted formation....and it gets banned. It's about as far from surprising as it gets.

The best part is claiming "we don't know what they mean by full strength" when the rule existed identically for years with a clarif associated with it from GW...which said this is exactly what it meant, dead models come back.

C'est la vie. I'll still bring piranhas, because I want to. They'll just suck.

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

The relic that gives a bonus to the invuln save says that Khorne daemon models around the vehicle get +1 to their invuln save. It doesn't say that the vehicle gets the bonus.

The legacy says "Daemon of Khorne within 6" get +1 invul". The vehicle is within 6" isn't it?

Indeed it is! More blood for the blood God!

Hey, now all tyranid GMC are dead turn 1 in ITC. That's highly amusing and great and all. Good job, trooper!

Yes, I know they're somewhat terrible to begin with. Now, they're unusable. Any newly released GMC will be useless as well.

Target wrote:

gungo wrote:

 CKO wrote:
They cant act like the air armada as they aren't flyers! They are 2 hp, open top, and armor 10 vehicles, the formation is useless unless you go first in which it becomes average.

If you go first you shoot your seekers second turn you get attacked by anti-tank unit 1-3 die and they cannot be revived! You come back with less than what you started with, I think its better to have more units on board than leave to get 4 drones or 4 seeker missiles.

My advice stay away from this formation, you were only gaining 2 drone units and 2 bonus seeker missiles uses in a 5 turn game prior to the vote. Now that models can not come back its even worse, just a horrible formation stay away your better off just leaving the piranhas on the board and using them to claim objectives.

The air armada is also 2hp av10 vehicles they both jink except the air armada costs way more and doesn't have drones just bombs and hull that replenish. It's also not competitve because it costs a crap ton for subpar models. I think it would be fine if piranha respawned but the rules on respawning wasn't exactly clear either. It's not like the ITC community are the only ones who read it that way nova doesn't respawn either.

If you mean NOVA the tournament, they are playing Piranhas by the rules, meaning "the unit returns at full strength" literally means what it says - the dead models come back. NOVA doesn't typically do nerfs, and they aren't doing them here.

It's an absurd result to a vote, but it's not surprising - you ask people to vote on something, who aren't informed and don't even know the rule, and the majority don't play that army and have heard its a busted formation....and it gets banned. It's about as far from surprising as it gets.

The best part is claiming "we don't know what they mean by full strength" when the rule existed identically for years with a clarif associated with it from GW...which said this is exactly what it meant, dead models come back.

C'est la vie. I'll still bring piranhas, because I want to. They'll just suck.

You are right about nova. Odd I swear they ruled it that way before. Never mind.

 gigasnail wrote:
Hey, now all tyranid GMC are dead turn 1 in ITC. That's highly amusing and great and all. Good job, trooper!

Yes, I know they're somewhat terrible to begin with. Now, they're unusable. Any newly released GMC will be useless as well.

You could actually put that GMC behind the terrain and get a cover save.

 luke1705 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

The relic that gives a bonus to the invuln save says that Khorne daemon models around the vehicle get +1 to their invuln save. It doesn't say that the vehicle gets the bonus.

The legacy says "Daemon of Khorne within 6" get +1 invul". The vehicle is within 6" isn't it?

Indeed it is! More blood for the blood God!

Ya this argument is what i meant by the invul shenanigans however I doubt it will work that way.

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

The relic that gives a bonus to the invuln save says that Khorne daemon models around the vehicle get +1 to their invuln save. It doesn't say that the vehicle gets the bonus.

The legacy says "Daemon of Khorne within 6" get +1 invul". The vehicle is within 6" isn't it?

I think that more speaks to the fact that the community got the vote wrong here. You shouldn't be able to add the relics to something with the daemon rule.

bogalubov wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

The relic that gives a bonus to the invuln save says that Khorne daemon models around the vehicle get +1 to their invuln save. It doesn't say that the vehicle gets the bonus.

The legacy says "Daemon of Khorne within 6" get +1 invul". The vehicle is within 6" isn't it?

I think that more speaks to the fact that the community got the vote wrong here. You shouldn't be able to add the relics to something with the daemon rule.

Not what the rules say. Says you can't put a relic on a Daemon Engine. There is no rule that a vehicle with the daemon rule is a Daemon Engine. So by RAW it works.

 gigasnail wrote:
Hey, now all tyranid GMC are dead turn 1 in ITC. That's highly amusing and great and all. Good job, trooper!

Yes, I know they're somewhat terrible to begin with. Now, they're unusable. Any newly released GMC will be useless as well.

That's OK, just bring more small stuff...

Oh, wait, still 1850 pts.

Yeah, good luck with that.

 gigasnail wrote:
Hey, now all tyranid GMC are dead turn 1 in ITC. That's highly amusing and great and all. Good job, trooper!

Yes, I know they're somewhat terrible to begin with. Now, they're unusable. Any newly released GMC will be useless as well.

You can still put them behind things and get buffs from Venomthropes/Malanthropes. You just can't put .01" of their base on the outside edge of a building terrain and suddenly become invincible. Nid GCs are easier to hide than WKs anyway, much more squat.

I can count on my hand the number of time I've seen nid players use a GMC. Let's be honest nids rely on FMC and MC to do the heavy lifting and none of those were touched by this ruling. The barbed heirodule is just awful (same stats as wraithknight without the str d shooting at 2x the cost) the harridan is a FMC and not allowed most times anyway in the ITC and doninatrix doesn't exist. This is about as big a nerf to tyranids as the Orks losing toe in cover on a gargantuan squiggoth.

Yeah, good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I can count on my hand the number of time I've seen nid players use a GMC. Let's be honest nids rely on FMC and MC to do the heavy lifting and none of those were touched by this ruling.

That's because our current choices are terrible/overcosted. Anything in the future will be equally useless now.

Poor Firestream Wing. We hardly knew ye. :(

At least there is some small bone thrown to us with our Ghostkeel, but it's not enough.

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

The relic that gives a bonus to the invuln save says that Khorne daemon models around the vehicle get +1 to their invuln save. It doesn't say that the vehicle gets the bonus.

The legacy says "Daemon of Khorne within 6" get +1 invul". The vehicle is within 6" isn't it?

I think that more speaks to the fact that the community got the vote wrong here. You shouldn't be able to add the relics to something with the daemon rule.

Not what the rules say. Says you can't put a relic on a Daemon Engine. There is no rule that a vehicle with the daemon rule is a Daemon Engine. So by RAW it works.

Oh I understand the RAW, I just don't agree with it. Based on how awkward the wording is, I don't FW anticipated having a Knight that can be upgraded with the daemon special rule. But hey, the community has spoken so I'll trudge forward with my 4++ chaos knight.

bogalubov wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

The relic that gives a bonus to the invuln save says that Khorne daemon models around the vehicle get +1 to their invuln save. It doesn't say that the vehicle gets the bonus.

The legacy says "Daemon of Khorne within 6" get +1 invul". The vehicle is within 6" isn't it?

I think that more speaks to the fact that the community got the vote wrong here. You shouldn't be able to add the relics to something with the daemon rule.

Not what the rules say. Says you can't put a relic on a Daemon Engine. There is no rule that a vehicle with the daemon rule is a Daemon Engine. So by RAW it works.

Oh I understand the RAW, I just don't agree with it. Based on how awkward the wording is, I don't FW anticipated having a Knight that can be upgraded with the daemon special rule. But hey, the community has spoken so I'll trudge forward with my 4++ chaos knight.

BTW, I ran a Chaos Knight with a Legacy Relic at the LVO. They can be quite strong.

In any case, my army Chaos army remains unchanged unless I opt to run the Daemoncurions.

 gigasnail wrote:
Yeah, good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I can count on my hand the number of time I've seen nid players use a GMC. Let's be honest nids rely on FMC and MC to do the heavy lifting and none of those were touched by this ruling.

That's because our current choices are terrible/overcosted. Anything in the future will be equally useless now.

No the harridan is decent just not allowed
The dominatrix has no rules or model
The barbed herodule is awful cost and ability.
Oddly enough other gargantuans have invul, thier own cover, or just dirt cheap. This doesn't mean a tyranid gmc won't ever get those same abilities.

bogalubov wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

The relic that gives a bonus to the invuln save says that Khorne daemon models around the vehicle get +1 to their invuln save. It doesn't say that the vehicle gets the bonus.

The legacy says "Daemon of Khorne within 6" get +1 invul". The vehicle is within 6" isn't it?

I think that more speaks to the fact that the community got the vote wrong here. You shouldn't be able to add the relics to something with the daemon rule.

Not what the rules say. Says you can't put a relic on a Daemon Engine. There is no rule that a vehicle with the daemon rule is a Daemon Engine. So by RAW it works.

Oh I understand the RAW, I just don't agree with it. Based on how awkward the wording is, I don't FW anticipated having a Knight that can be upgraded with the daemon special rule. But hey, the community has spoken so I'll trudge forward with my 4++ chaos knight.

Considering that the Daemon Knight rules were already in IA13 (on Chaos Titans) its obvious that they already knew about giving chaos vehicles the daemon rule and if they didn't want Daemon Titans to have Legacies they would have said so.

That sets a precedent that they don't have a problem with Chaos Knights taking legacies either.

To further clarify and sound less like a salty whiner, my issue is there is no RAW reason for the GMC ruling, it is only people, well, being salty whiners. I do not (and will not) support house ruling according to a popularity contest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
Yeah, good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I can count on my hand the number of time I've seen nid players use a GMC. Let's be honest nids rely on FMC and MC to do the heavy lifting and none of those were touched by this ruling.

That's because our current choices are terrible/overcosted. Anything in the future will be equally useless now.

No the harridan is decent just not allowed
The dominatrix has no rules or model
The barbed herodule is awful cost and ability.
Oddly enough other gargantuans have invul, thier own cover, or just dirt cheap. This doesn't mean a tyranid gmc won't ever get those same abilities.

The harridans isn't allowed and the dominatrix doesn't exist. Therefore, they're not relevant to the discussion any more than a warhound titan is. The other choices, as already noted, are bad/overcosted. I'm not sure what your point is.

There aren't a plethora of invul saves in the faction, and I have zero faith any new units will have a useful one.

This was a poor decision.

 gigasnail wrote:
To further clarify and sound less like a salty whiner, my issue is there is no RAW reason for the GMC ruling, it is only people, well, being salty whiners. I do not (and will not) support house ruling according to a popularity contest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
Yeah, good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I can count on my hand the number of time I've seen nid players use a GMC. Let's be honest nids rely on FMC and MC to do the heavy lifting and none of those were touched by this ruling.

That's because our current choices are terrible/overcosted. Anything in the future will be equally useless now.

No the harridan is decent just not allowed
The dominatrix has no rules or model
The barbed herodule is awful cost and ability.
Oddly enough other gargantuans have invul, thier own cover, or just dirt cheap. This doesn't mean a tyranid gmc won't ever get those same abilities.

The harridans isn't allowed and the dominatrix doesn't exist. Therefore, they're not relevant to the discussion any more than a warhound titan is. The other choices, as already noted, are bad/overcosted. I'm not sure what your point is.

There aren't a plethora of invul saves in the faction, and I have zero faith any new units will have a useful one.

This was a poor decision.

Just wanted to point out that most people voted on this with the Wraithknight in mind. That unit is the biggest offender.

 jy2 wrote:

BTW, I ran a Chaos Knight with a Legacy Relic at the LVO. They can be quite strong.

In any case, my army Chaos army remains unchanged unless I opt to run the Daemoncurions.

What did you run jy2?

Raw is a horrid argument at this point. Not a single person here truly believes GW is writing clear balanced rules. If they were we wouldn't need the ITC. That ship has sailed. GW sucks at writing decent rules. The ITC is just taking the gak GW gives us and tries to put it in a format that's playable and fun. Sometimes this means changing things even when the rules allow it to work differently, sometimes it means just ban the unit because it is beyond fixing. GMC toe in cover is a clear example of how the community wants it to be played and not a RAW argument.