Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 techsoldaten wrote:
This thread almost completely ignores IA:13, which is the single best way to make CSMs a powerful faction.

Take 2 Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor, then pick anything else on a CSM list and you have a pretty good army.

I see the problem, your confusing IA:13 with Codex Chaos Space Marines.

While they can be taken together, they are not the same book, otherwise those things would be in C:CSM and not in IA:13.

Extra options are nice, but when the core is rotten.... Or polishing a turd, etc etc.

Pick your preferred analogy.

 techsoldaten wrote:
This thread almost completely ignores IA:13, which is the single best way to make CSMs a powerful faction.

Take 2 Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor, then pick anything else on a CSM list and you have a pretty good army.

That costs $600 Canadian plus shipping, so likely far more. Then we need the $60 CSM Codex and whatever else will be included in the list. I know this is a rich man's hobby, but relying on Forgeworld kits for your faction to be usable is something no other army does. Yes, any of them will get a boost from FW stuff but no one says "well sure the Space Marine Codex is pretty bad, but don't forget they have Imperial Armour!

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
This thread almost completely ignores IA:13, which is the single best way to make CSMs a powerful faction.

Take 2 Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor, then pick anything else on a CSM list and you have a pretty good army.

I see the problem, your confusing IA:13 with Codex Chaos Space Marines.

While they can be taken together, they are not the same book, otherwise those things would be in C:CSM and not in IA:13.

Extra options are nice, but when the core is rotten.... Or polishing a turd, etc etc.

Pick your preferred analogy.

Exactly.

The issue is that C:SM and IA2 also exist, which features much better codex units and very similar FW choices. So even setting aside the somewhat sucking chest wound of a hole in the logic of using a second book to support the first, it falls over in the most direct comparison available.

SURE Imperial Guard aren't good, but don't forget they have Imperial Armour!

 techsoldaten wrote:
This thread almost completely ignores IA:13, which is the single best way to make CSMs a powerful faction.

Take 2 Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor, then pick anything else on a CSM list and you have a pretty good army.

So basically take as little of CODEX CHAOS SPACE MARINE units as possible and you'll have a decent army. As a loyalist marine player can feel their pain.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Doesn't matter if you can charge out of Deep Strike if your list sucks. Just naming the type of list doesn't help your cause, especially when the real world applications show otherwise on the usage of Mutilators (AKA they aren't used for a reason)

Care to prove your point? I doubt you'll be able to reliably put a mutilator list down unless you run obsec spam like gladius. What are the stakes?
I'm avaliable for a vassal match.

If that were AT ALL true, people would actually do that and bring it to tournaments. Proof was already brought that they're mathematically bad, and ANY battle report that was presented was against a scrub list, where the Mutilators STILL struggle to perform.
Get your head out of your ass for one minute and realize the proof is literally in front of you. They aren't even brought to ITC, where they purposely make the rules more balanced for everyone to have a chance. CSM STILL makes no showing outside of being allies just to get Belakor.

What more proof do you want that Mutilators are a junk unit and CSM is a junk codex.

Other people have already said they're able to access Vassal. I've also already mentioned SEVERAL times I barely have a functional computer and make most of my posts on my phone.

People voted for Bush. Twice. And for Putin. Thrice?.. People are always right, right?

 koooaei wrote:
People are always right, right?

No, they're not. And they're not always on topic either, when they really should be. Keep it to the topic at hand. We can leave the very specific "are mutilators good or not" argument along here and focus on other things, things that didn't spawn an X page thread of bickering and mod warnings.

wowzers

That avatar pick really makes that red text pop. : |

No sir we shall not talk about things that are good in this things are bad thread, nor make jokes. That would be off topic got it.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
This thread almost completely ignores IA:13, which is the single best way to make CSMs a powerful faction.

Take 2 Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor, then pick anything else on a CSM list and you have a pretty good army.

So basically take as little of CODEX CHAOS SPACE MARINE units as possible and you'll have a decent army. As a loyalist marine player can feel their pain.

And you're one of the few Loyalist players who do sympathise with our plight, so please accept my genuine thanks!

Most Loyalists players in general seem to be outright overjoyed at how god-awful Chaos in general is at this point, happy to just laugh every genuine issue with our army off as Chaos players just needing to "L2P!/Git Gud!lolz!"...
Daemons are the only 'bright spot', but instantly elicit cries of being a WaaC's donkeycave. (and god forbid you use even a single Malefic psyker - that's worse than playing Kraftworld Ceddar!)

IA:13 isn't widely accepted on the whole, and for some us, Forgeworld is either 'banned', and/or is simply too much of a hassle to get a hold of. (really, $200 book + $400 in models + shipping/tariffs?! Yeah, that gak!)

Khornekin is okay... if you like mono Khorne of course! And it still didn't fix a single issue with all the mortal units, while the Daemonic characters lost a massive amount of utility due to no Gifts/Wargear options.

Chaos Marines simply don't function at all anymore outside of a handful of MoN options, unmarked Sorcerers, the no-longer crazy Helturkey, and/or occasional AoBF Jugger Lord.

Well. The arguement was "cause people say they're bad". A lot of good things are not brought to itc cause itc has a killpoint mission in almost every turn and other homerules that are only relevant to those who play itc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, i propose to prove the point and not just throw rude words and general assumptions.

Yes we want non anecdotal proof of your suckyness on the battlefield and not just Mathhammer or Beerless Pubtalk and we want it now.
We will start to proclaim that you army is the best army ever if our demands are not met in the next 24 hours.

That'd be harsh.

 koooaei wrote:
Well. The arguement was "cause people say they're bad". A lot of good things are not brought to itc cause itc has a killpoint mission in almost every turn and other homerules that are only relevant to those who play itc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, i propos to prove the point and not just throw rude words and general assumptions.

It has been proven, many, many times over...

Chaos Marines are slightly overcosted to begin with, and due to their stagnant 3rd/4th ed designs, they come with exactly 0 special rules/bonuses, unlike literally every other modern army gets in today's game.
To give Chaos Marines their relevant 'special perks', you have to buy them, thus making already overcosted models even more painfully overcosted.

Then throw in the fact that the army has received ZERO new upgrade options since day 1 of 3rd edition!

Then add in a complete lack of synergies available within the army itself.

Now add to the mix that the army is still trying to play 3rd/4th edition style "Rhino Assault Rush", in an edition where those rules no longer work.

Top it all off with now being the one and only army left in the game that has no Formations and/or unique FOC's within their own codex, let alone the Decurion goodness that half the game's armies now have.


Chaos Marines suck because the army is quite literally 10+ years out of date, has poor overall firepower in a shooting friendly edition, cannot get ANY of their assault units into assaults, and is composed entirely of overcosted units that still have to shell out additional pts just to get the same level of rules/abilities that everyone else gets as standard...
And that's besides the fact that for the past 10+ years, the army doesn't build anything even remotely close to its own background! We can't do Legions, meanwhile Renegades make no sense being stuck with ancient Heresy-era gear, and mono-God is laughable outside of Nurgle.

Yes you can monkey together a semblance of a competitive list for CSM's... If you stick to perhaps just the 4-5 relevant choices left within the actual Chaos Marine codex, and then spend the remaining 70-95% of your pts on Daemons and/or IA:13.

That's kinda the whole point Chaos players are up in arms over. But don't let truth get in the way of trying to tell the rest of us scrubs to just man-up & L2P/Git Gud.

Even after getting the nerfbat in 7th edition, you still go nowhere without at least one Heldrake if you happen to be playing in a minimally competitive meta.

In theory, it's possible to build a somewhat competitive list with the main CSM codex, but it's always going to be the same: Heldrake, bikes and Nurgle mark on every single marine. Guess what, there are people who do not enjoy playing Nurgle, and it's pathetic that out of five different flavours (four gods plus undivided/unaligned) only one offers a realistic choice of winning.

One of the most insulting and painful comparisons, to me, is the fact that at a certain point CSM had Legion-specific rules, then they lost them, and then loyalists got their chapter tactics.

I just remembered another thing to gripe about.

I want my daemon weapons back! D:

I miss my Dread Axe. My Kai Gun, and Berserker Glaive.

Hell even the Dark Blade would be good at this point.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I just remembered another thing to gripe about.

I want my daemon weapons back! D:

I miss my Dread Axe. My Kai Gun, and Berserker Glaive.

Hell even the Dark Blade would be good at this point.

Loyalists called, they said something about finding a large cache of Relic Blades all of a sudden!

IA shouldn't be taken into account when discussing whether or not a codex is weak or strong. A codex should be able to stand on it's own with no outside support, and things like IA should be supplemental material. Things you can add onto your army because they're cool, and you are willing to put in the time/effort to buy, paint, and build it. It shouldn't be something that's needed for the army to be on par with others. I took a look through my friend's CSM codex and it was shocking to say the least.

 War Kitten wrote:
I took a look through my friend's CSM codex and it was shocking to say the least.

Aye. A lvl3 Sorcerer is nice, but that's about the only CSM you'll need. Cheap cultist troops, a hellturkey or two - then fill up with some real meat from Chaos Daemons. You can technically call it a CSM army with allies, but it's really an army full of not-CSM things that let the poor CSM tag along out of pity.

 motyak wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
People are always right, right?

No, they're not. And they're not always on topic either, when they really should be. Keep it to the topic at hand. We can leave the very specific "are mutilators good or not" argument along here and focus on other things, things that didn't spawn an X page thread of bickering and mod warnings.

In defense if that thread, I learned a lot and it included several battle reports and a lot of good discussion. The fighting was irritating, but it seems like it comes with the territory here -- certain posters are very confrontational and inflammatory.

I'd like to say that this thread has re-kindled my love for Chaos Space Marines. At my FLGS today, I bought some second-hand (but just assembled and priimed) minis. I got 8 Khorne Berzerkers and 2 metal Obliterators. Hopefully one day I'll get a book that lets me use them to win a game.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Now add to the mix that the army is still trying to play 3rd/4th edition style "Rhino Assault Rush", in an edition where those rules no longer work.

Assault Rhino rush is dead since 6-th. Trying to perform it with any dex is pointless. Rhinos are a decent moving terrain - not a choppy deliverance now. Changes it's intended uses.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Yes you can monkey together a semblance of a competitive list for CSM's... If you stick to perhaps just the 4-5 relevant choices left within the actual Chaos Marine codex, and then spend the remaining 70-95% of your pts on Daemons and/or IA:13.

That's kinda the whole point Chaos players are up in arms over. But don't let truth get in the way of trying to tell the rest of us scrubs to just man-up & L2P/Git Gud.

I wanted to write the same thing too but than i started listing good and ok stuff in the dex and...there-'s just a handful of downright bad stuff that's hard to make ok. Possessed, forgefiends (for me), warp talons (too pricey), zerkers (also too pricey), some named HQ. But than the rest of the book ranges from mediocre to good.

I rate mutilators Good cause they work. They do their stuff. Muties aren't TWC in sense that they don't rush the enemy and murderise all in their way, but they're good in a sense that they drop all over the place and score, deny, frighten off small units and vehicles, attract fire and don't die to stiff breeze. I fielded 6-7 in 1850 games. Multiple times (5 or 6). And they worked more or less this way EVERY time. They scored VP in maestorm, denied VP. They did their job succsessfully. Not amazing but good enough. And i don't even think oblits are strictly better. This +1 attack and ability to strike at ini matters. They're also cheaper.

Oblits are better because after you deepstrike at least you get to shoot that turn with whatever weapon you please. In short, Oblits do the same job as Muties, and can even manage to kabooom the odd tank, or two.

 techsoldaten wrote:
This thread almost completely ignores IA:13, which is the single best way to make CSMs a powerful faction.

Take 2 Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor, then pick anything else on a CSM list and you have a pretty good army.

Can't do that. Both are Infernal Relics.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
This thread almost completely ignores IA:13, which is the single best way to make CSMs a powerful faction.

Take 2 Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor, then pick anything else on a CSM list and you have a pretty good army.

Can't do that. Both are Infernal Relics.

So? You just have to take a technomancer (such as a malefic sorcerer) and you can take unlimited infernal relics

 Korinov wrote:
Oblits are better because after you deepstrike at least you get to shoot that turn with whatever weapon you please. In short, Oblits do the same job as Muties, and can even manage to kabooom the odd tank, or two.

I ran both and what's interesting, Muties were not worse and in some games even clearly better. But ideally, you need both. Some shooting is invaluable.

Personally, I don't think either unit (Muties or Oblits) are very good in a competitive format. They both cost too much for too little firepower, or take to long to influence the game.

In a competitive format, AV is rare outside of the gladius formation, and AV is the one unit type mutilators, and even oblits to an extent, do very well against. Usually in competitive format, MSU or splitfire units are very common, which reduces the impact an extreme small unit style army can have. Units like Crisis suits, Centstar, Scatbikes, heck even a basic tac squad if its weapons are good (so not HB but more plasma guns) can remove the unit and still earn a decent amount of points back.


Really, that thread failed to hit the goalpost that was set pretty early in the thread; Do mutilators have a place in anything resembling a competitive game? This wasn't because they failed to perform in the battle reports provided, it was simply due to the fact that the battle reports were extremely casual. Which is fine, but doesn't have a lot to do with a discussion on how good a unit is. I believe we were waiting on Jan to run a MSU mutilator list against a comp eldar list no?

The thread tended to devolve into, and incidentally created this problem in other threads, a poster chiming in with the equivalent of "Fight me" while other posters make tongue in cheek snipes at mutilators. It was a very toxic thread that achieved nothing except to make the whole forums even worse and split the chaos players into two camps. It doesn't help that people in one camp seem to feel it's okay to insult people, which is most likely why the thread got locked.




As to why the CSM codex is bad, the fact mutilators are considered viable by some at all doesn't bode well. We are still using 5th edition tactics in a 7.5 world, since we lack units that have a better strategy than that one. Our SCs tend to be lackluster when compared to the ones you see taken by other armies. We lack a deathstar, good shooting (basically using noise marines, devs, and tactical level shooting still). We have decent melee, no longer great since many armies got a buff in melee that puts them over us.

We desperately need a good fluffy codex. It's been a very long time since we've had one.

Akiasura wrote:

As to why the CSM codex is bad, the fact mutilators are considered viable by some at all doesn't bode well. We are still using 5th edition tactics in a 7.5 world, since we lack units that have a better strategy than that one. Our SCs tend to be lackluster when compared to the ones you see taken by other armies. We lack a deathstar, good shooting (basically using noise marines, devs, and tactical level shooting still). We have decent melee, no longer great since many armies got a buff in melee that puts them over us.

We desperately need a good fluffy codex. It's been a very long time since we've had one.

October 2007 - the day Chaos Space Marines died.

CSM being a bad codex can be summed up with one basic truth

The more Power armored space marines you take in the list, the lower your chances of winning become. Until they fix that it will always be a bad book in my eye because it utterly fails to represent the faction it's reportedly trying to display.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
CSM being a bad codex can be summed up with one basic truth

The more Power armored space marines you take in the list, the lower your chances of winning become. Until they fix that it will always be a bad book in my eye because it utterly fails to represent the faction it's reportedly trying to display.

Perfect.

Akiasura wrote:

Really, that thread failed to hit the goalpost that was set pretty early in the thread; Do mutilators have a place in anything resembling a competitive game? This wasn't because they failed to perform in the battle reports provided, it was simply due to the fact that the battle reports were extremely casual.

Noone proved otherwise. I ain't hiding from games.
I'd not call the lists casual per se. They were not common cheeze - that's for sure. But they can achieve good results on their own. Which is like 80% of the lists out there irl.