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Look forward to seeing them on the table.

I dunno, I'd prefer it if you modelled the changes, at least in some way. They could be rather inexpensive, just an extra few armour plates or a force field of some kind on their backs. I can see where both sides are coming from, but I'm leaning towards Lockart here.

But of course, I'm not playing you. Ask who you're actually playing with, and don't think to much about what we're saying.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I dunno, I'd prefer it if you modelled the changes, at least in some way. They could be rather inexpensive, just an extra few armour plates or a force field of some kind on their backs. I can see where both sides are coming from, but I'm leaning towards Lockart here.

But of course, I'm not playing you. Ask who you're actually playing with, and don't think to much about what we're saying.

Not to mention in his 1st post he even said they are into fluffy loyalist vs traitor only games. I would guess a gaming group that takes the fluff that series that they don't play blue on blue games, would expect some effort put into representing the Provenances as extreme as survivors and abhumans...

But apparently I'm unreasonable that he wants to say his cadians in flakk armour have a +3Sv...

I never advocated for Cadian in flak to get a 3+ save. I said it was unreasonable to have to use power armor models to represent the upgrade.

Yah you didn't, but the OP said that's what he wants to do.

 Brennonjw wrote:

flak armor looks the same as carapace armor
power armor looks the same as artificer armor
eldar 3+ saves look different then Tau 3+ saves which both look different then power armor.
Just because it's a human with a 3+ save DOESN'T mean that they are wearing power armor. 'my guys are wearing carapace armor laced with titanium' or 'this planet is highly technologically advance, so we use something like halo's overshields as our armor' 'my men are all wielding specialized slab-shields that they use as armor' or 'these men have a 3+ armor save since they use special tech under their regular unit form that disperse the shock of the rounds that hit'

 Brennonjw wrote:

if your local GW functions that way, then no one must use grenadier veterans, or command squads when they play IG, right? no artificer on your srgt unless you go out and buy some special armor for him? sounds terrible to play there.

Flakk Armour is the same as Carapace Armour, and it's just better Carapace Armour. So this guy now has a +3Sv Because I say so.



If you guys don't see the issue with that, then I realy am not sure what to say.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I know it isnt really gonna matter, but their all fluffy, Loyalist Vs. Traitor only. And while they dont care, I want to join in the fun.

The fact he's playing with a group that dosen't even allow for loyalist on loyalist or traitor on traitor battles. I don't think that's going to fly. If it dose, then all I got to say is that he has a strange gaming group indeed.

no, BUT it's easy to say "super tech under the armor, or 'different building materiels' as opposed to 'it's a 3+ save so it MUST be power armor'

Yeah, my group is super fluffy, but their the ones thar recommended both provenances. And they said they pax the rule more cause more loyalists came in. They even said it could represent an elite milita army that is the best of the best with the best gear

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, my group is super fluffy, but their the ones thar recommended both provenances. And they said they pax the rule more cause more loyalists came in. They even said it could represent an elite milita army that is the best of the best with the best gear

"A strange gaming group indeed", that they are that concerned with the fluff restricting games to loyalist vs. traitor but think Cadians are a appropriate representation of a +3Sv.

 Brennonjw wrote:
no, BUT it's easy to say "super tech under the armor, or 'different building materiels' as opposed to 'it's a 3+ save so it MUST be power armor'

So you have done nothing to repersent the fact they come from a technologically advanced homeworld, and their flakk armour is as protective as power armour why? Oh yah.... Because you said it was.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:I dunno, I'd prefer it if you modelled the changes, at least in some way. They could be rather inexpensive, just an extra few armour plates or a force field of some kind on their backs. I can see where both sides are coming from, but I'm leaning towards Lockart here.

But of course, I'm not playing you. Ask who you're actually playing with, and don't think to much about what we're saying.

Lockark wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I dunno, I'd prefer it if you modelled the changes, at least in some way. They could be rather inexpensive, just an extra few armour plates or a force field of some kind on their backs. I can see where both sides are coming from, but I'm leaning towards Lockart here.

But of course, I'm not playing you. Ask who you're actually playing with, and don't think to much about what we're saying.

Not to mention in his 1st post he even said they are into fluffy loyalist vs traitor only games. I would guess a gaming group that takes the fluff that series that they don't play blue on blue games, would expect some effort put into representing the Provenances as extreme as survivors and abhumans...

But apparently I'm unreasonable that he wants to say his cadians in flakk armour have a +3Sv...

hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, my group is super fluffy, but their the ones thar recommended both provenances. And they said they pax the rule more cause more loyalists came in. They even said it could represent an elite milita army that is the best of the best with the best gear

Lockark wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, my group is super fluffy, but their the ones thar recommended both provenances. And they said they pax the rule more cause more loyalists came in. They even said it could represent an elite milita army that is the best of the best with the best gear

"A strange gaming group indeed", that they are that considered with the fluff restircting games to loyalist vs. traitor but think Cadians are a appropriate representation of a +3Sv.

 Brennonjw wrote:
no, BUT it's easy to say "super tech under the armor, or 'different building materiels' as opposed to 'it's a 3+ save so it MUST be power armor'

So you have done nothing to repersent the fact they come from a technologically advanced homeworld, and their flakk armour is as protective as power armour why? Oh yah.... Because you said it was.

We are fluffy, but we don't have a problem with blue on blue. We have had some traitor on traitor and loyalist on loyalist battles.

And I recomeneded he play full on Auxilla.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I've seen his IG, though it was a while back, and it should work fine for the way he wants to play them.

Sometimes I wonder how many Solar Auxilia models contain actual Solar Auxilia miniatures. xD

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how many Solar Auxilia models contain actual Solar Auxilia miniatures. xD

mine is mostly solar auxilia. the only difference is that I have a 20-man lasrifle squad made of vostroyans.... though I suppose some would call that unexcusable proxy

My SA army, as meagre as it is, is made out of Dreamforge stormtroopers. Personally I like the Dreamforge models more but it doesn't help that it's HIPS and a gak ton cheaper.

That's actually what I intend to use for my eventual IG/SA army

 Brennonjw wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how many Solar Auxilia models contain actual Solar Auxilia miniatures. xD

mine is mostly solar auxilia. the only difference is that I have a 20-man lasrifle squad made of vostroyans.... though I suppose some would call that unexcusable proxy

Vostroyans models are actually wearing carapace, atleast that's what GW said back in the days of imperial gaurd doctrines.


Edit: The only thing is I'm wondering if metal vostroyans are actually cheaper then forge world's Solar Aux models..... (Not to mention that once GW's metal stock runs out they will go OOP more likely then not.)

 Lockark wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how many Solar Auxilia models contain actual Solar Auxilia miniatures. xD

mine is mostly solar auxilia. the only difference is that I have a 20-man lasrifle squad made of vostroyans.... though I suppose some would call that unexcusable proxy

Vostroyans models are actually wearing carapace, atleast that's what GW said back in the days of imperial gaurd doctrines.

Though their armour hardly looks void-capable .

Agreed. I keep looking at vostroyans as a nice source for militia - they're bulky enough to get away with using as grenadiers - even Suvivors grenadiers - and have a very '30k' feel to them.

Probably inevitable as they were modelled from 'Imperial Army' sketches in collected visions.

So Dkok can be brought to 30k games? I dont know if the timing matches up

Not as Death Korps. The Krieg civil war is way, way post 30k.
However, the 'toxic hellhole warzone' exists and is a major front in the period - if you wanted to use them in 30k, I'd call them Tallarns.

My SA army has pure SA models.

As for the discussion in the thread, IMO put some effort into reflecting the rules please. Cadians could have armour made of pure win but they aren't wearing enough to warrant a 3+.

And they aren't abhuman in the slightest... well unless you mean their gorilla like proportions.

Well my plan for grenadiers was to sculpting Carapace armor on my VETS/Grendiers.
I never NEVER said the flak would represent 3+ armour, I said I shouldnt have to make them out of power armor because the whole point Is I wanted my militia to represent tough, battle hardened warriors with gear made with exotic maters.
But if the Heresy community is like this, i might just shelve my IG now, this is worse then Warmachine/hordes.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well my plan for grenadiers was to sculpting Carapace armor on my VETS/Grendiers.
I never NEVER said the flak would represent 3+ armour, I said I should have to make them out of power armor because the whole point Is I wanted my militia to represent tough, battle hardened warriors with gear made with exotic maters.
But if the Heresy community is like this, i might just shelve my IG now, this is worse then Warmachine/hordes.

If the heresy community is like what? Dismissive of people who say you MUST model 3+ saves as power armor? No one said you couldn't or shouldn't, what the argument was about was "is it MANDITORY to have 3+ saves be power armor or not" Unless there was a post or train of thought that I missed, I don't see how you came to this conclusion. Because 2 or 3 people on a forum said "oh my god! you did not model that 3+ save" and 2 or 3 other people say "why does it matter, there's a million ways to show an improved save" we are spiteful of all non-official plans?

Dude, I use 28mm confederates for my Militia, and the whole point of militia is 'they are so damn varied no one knows what they use. Even in the fluff for grenadiers, it's described as a catch all for all 'elite' or 'veteran' squads. and, to be fair, this is the ONLY thread I've read about people being critical of not modeling the improved armor save from survivors, and even then it's because 1 of the said people played with extreme levels of 'faux-wysiwyg' at his local GW.

And if THAT'S worse then the warmachine community, then I must have read every wrong post when I was thinking about playing WM/H.

This post. Saying I have to put grenadiers in power armor and anything else from that is just a Prxy. Not being able to model things they way I want is kinda the problems I have with the WM/H community. and if the horus heresy community is like this, then they can take their elitism and shove it.

 Lockark wrote:


Just so you are aware with Survivors, you must take grenadiers as required troop choices. These grenadiers have their carapace armour replaced with power armour. Also your bassic dudes that make up the rest of the army aren't exactly WYSIWYG in regards to carapace armour. Survivors is one of the harder ones to represent. You bassicly need to put empire heads on plastic calth spacemariens or something silly to represent them.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
This post. Saying I have to put grenadiers in power armor and anything else from that is just a Prxy. Not being able to model things they way I want is kinda the problems I have with the WM/H community. and if the horus heresy community is like this, then they can take their elitism and shove it.

 Lockark wrote:


Just so you are aware with Survivors, you must take grenadiers as required troop choices. These grenadiers have their carapace armour replaced with power armour. Also your bassic dudes that make up the rest of the army aren't exactly WYSIWYG in regards to carapace armour. Survivors is one of the harder ones to represent. You bassicly need to put empire heads on plastic calth spacemariens or something silly to represent them.

1 man does not the community make. like I edited above he's an odd case, with weird faux-wysiwyg at his local GW, and I use fething confederates as my militia ; the rule says you get +1 to your armor, not power armor. At most, it looked liked a few other were advocating somehow showing the improved save, which I would do by adding either paint or base details to stand them out as vets. if your fielding them alongside regular militia squads for easy rules sake.

hell, even with abhuman helots, there's thousands of ways to fluff it up AND still use regular human models. 'these guys are from planets with more of plotfoilium in the atmosphere, making their bodies hardier, though at the cost of slower movements due to issues with chemicals" or something along those lines.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well my plan for grenadiers was to sculpting Carapace armor on my VETS/Grendiers.
I never NEVER said the flak would represent 3+ armour, I said I shouldnt have to make them out of power armor because the whole point Is I wanted my militia to represent tough, battle hardened warriors with gear made with exotic maters.
But if the Heresy community is like this, i might just shelve my IG now, this is worse then Warmachine/hordes.

Have you ever thought about using Infinity minis? That may be close to what you are looking for.


I'm planning to use them for an Inquisition-affiliated, Dark Age tech special unit in the near future. They are different from the "heroic" scale in terms of proportions, being true scale. But it's close enough in my opinion.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
This post. Saying I have to put grenadiers in power armor and anything else from that is just a Prxy. Not being able to model things they way I want is kinda the problems I have with the WM/H community. and if the horus heresy community is like this, then they can take their elitism and shove it.

 Lockark wrote:


Just so you are aware with Survivors, you must take grenadiers as required troop choices. These grenadiers have their carapace armour replaced with power armour. Also your bassic dudes that make up the rest of the army aren't exactly WYSIWYG in regards to carapace armour. Survivors is one of the harder ones to represent. You bassicly need to put empire heads on plastic calth spacemariens or something silly to represent them.

1 lady does not the community make. like I edited above she's an odd case, with weird faux-wysiwyg at her local GW, and I use fething confederates as my militia ; the rule says you get +1 to your armor, not power armor. At most, it looked liked a few other were advocating somehow showing the improved save, which I would do by adding either paint or base details to stand them out as vets. if your fielding them alongside regular militia squads for easy rules sake.

hell, even with abhuman helots, there's thousands of ways to fluff it up AND still use regular human models. 'these guys are from planets with more of plotfoilium in the atmosphere, making their bodies hardier, though at the cost of slower movements due to issues with chemicals" or something along those lines.

Whao. I'm apparently so mean, I made someone almost quite the game with my mean internet comments. =/

Generally 30k is not a RAW rule set, and your expected to house rule and interpret the rules. That's why earlier I pointed out about the fact that the typos in the original milita list made it boarderline unplayable if you were going by RAW. My gaming group believe that a +3 armour save should be represented with power armour, and dark age survivors is a clearly a reference to the power armoured adventurers and squats from Rouge Trader.

If your group is strict RAW and they have to be in carapace armour, then I wish you luck in enjoying the age of darkness rule set. Clearly we are playing this game for two very different reasons.

 Lockark wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
This post. Saying I have to put grenadiers in power armor and anything else from that is just a Prxy. Not being able to model things they way I want is kinda the problems I have with the WM/H community. and if the horus heresy community is like this, then they can take their elitism and shove it.

 Lockark wrote:


Just so you are aware with Survivors, you must take grenadiers as required troop choices. These grenadiers have their carapace armour replaced with power armour. Also your bassic dudes that make up the rest of the army aren't exactly WYSIWYG in regards to carapace armour. Survivors is one of the harder ones to represent. You bassicly need to put empire heads on plastic calth spacemariens or something silly to represent them.

1 lady does not the community make. like I edited above she's an odd case, with weird faux-wysiwyg at her local GW, and I use fething confederates as my militia ; the rule says you get +1 to your armor, not power armor. At most, it looked liked a few other were advocating somehow showing the improved save, which I would do by adding either paint or base details to stand them out as vets. if your fielding them alongside regular militia squads for easy rules sake.

hell, even with abhuman helots, there's thousands of ways to fluff it up AND still use regular human models. 'these guys are from planets with more of plotfoilium in the atmosphere, making their bodies hardier, though at the cost of slower movements due to issues with chemicals" or something along those lines.

Generally 30k is not a RAW rule set, and your expected to house rule and interpret the rules. That's why earlier I pointed out about the fact that the typos in the original milita list made it boarderline unplayable if you were going by RAW. My gaming group believe that a +3 armour save should be represented with power armour, and that this is with-in the spirit of the rules and setting. To us the upgrade is a clearly reference to the power armoured adventurers and squats from Rouge Trader.

.

Or it might be a reflection of Imperial Army regiments, such as G9K Division Kill, that were known to use "semi-powered combat suits".

edit:A quick note: When I said he could paint the guy's skin blue to abhumans, I wasn't saying they had to be blue..... Giving human models unnatural color to help convey them being abhumans, and a simple idea that dates back to GW themselves to represent Ab-humans in the past. The reason why repersenting this isn't actually something you can just hand wave. Abhumans are not "little different" form humans. When your a Ad-human it means you population has evolved down a path that has made you into a new species. Your race of abhumans can not reproduce with base-line humans anymore because they have been come so genetically divergent.

This can be representing in many creative ways, but it needs to be clear they are not normal humans any more. Yes this can be done with painting.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Lockark wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
This post. Saying I have to put grenadiers in power armor and anything else from that is just a Prxy. Not being able to model things they way I want is kinda the problems I have with the WM/H community. and if the horus heresy community is like this, then they can take their elitism and shove it.

 Lockark wrote:


Just so you are aware with Survivors, you must take grenadiers as required troop choices. These grenadiers have their carapace armour replaced with power armour. Also your bassic dudes that make up the rest of the army aren't exactly WYSIWYG in regards to carapace armour. Survivors is one of the harder ones to represent. You bassicly need to put empire heads on plastic calth spacemariens or something silly to represent them.

1 lady does not the community make. like I edited above she's an odd case, with weird faux-wysiwyg at her local GW, and I use fething confederates as my militia ; the rule says you get +1 to your armor, not power armor. At most, it looked liked a few other were advocating somehow showing the improved save, which I would do by adding either paint or base details to stand them out as vets. if your fielding them alongside regular militia squads for easy rules sake.

hell, even with abhuman helots, there's thousands of ways to fluff it up AND still use regular human models. 'these guys are from planets with more of plotfoilium in the atmosphere, making their bodies hardier, though at the cost of slower movements due to issues with chemicals" or something along those lines.

Generally 30k is not a RAW rule set, and your expected to house rule and interpret the rules. That's why earlier I pointed out about the fact that the typos in the original milita list made it boarderline unplayable if you were going by RAW. My gaming group believe that a +3 armour save should be represented with power armour, and that this is with-in the spirit of the rules and setting. To us the upgrade is a clearly reference to the power armoured adventurers and squats from Rouge Trader.

.

Or it might be a reflection of Imperial Army regiments, such as G9K Division Kill, that were known to use "semi-powered combat suits".

I do not recognize that name, what novel/book are they from? They sounds interesting.

"semi-powered combat suits" sounds alot like the Human Power Armour from Dark Heresy TBH.


The difference between Carapace and Human-sized power armour is a back-pack power source and cabling and maby abit more armour. Well I sujested converting it from SM plastic, I wasn't saying that's the only way to model it. I was trying to give a sujestion that could be accomplished with a simple kit bash with out the need for sculpting/converting. (I didn't know how comfortable the OP would be with more complicated conversions, so easier sujestion 1st).

Another way I was thinking of doing it myself was actually to sculpt/add extra armour and cabling to the Carapace Armour on the new Tempest Scions plastics in the same locations you see on the SM mini's, and put SM backpacks on them. Generally the rule of thumb with GW's Armour is Carapace Covers More then Flak, and Powered has more tech then Carapace.

They were mentioned in Prospero Burns, if memory serves me right.

The only things I recall about the unit, besides that they wore that kind of armor under dusters, is that they were with the 40th Expeditionary Fleet. They took part in the campaigns against the Fraemium Moons with the Blood Angels, and the xenos of X173 Plural alongside the White Scars. They were also involved in the destruction of the Olamic Quietude and Craftworld Thuyelsa.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


They were mentioned in Prospero Burns, if memory serves me right.

The only things I recall about the unit, besides that they wore that kind of armor under dusters, is that they were with the 40th Expeditionary Fleet. They took part in the campaigns against the Fraemium Moons with the Blood Angels, and the xenos of X173 Plural alongside the White Scars. They were also involved in the destruction of the Olamic Quietude and Craftworld Thuyelsa.

I guess I will have to go back and re-read that book i guess, because I don't remember them at all and can't find anything on lexicanum.

That's fine tho, Was a good book anyway lol

 Lockark wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


They were mentioned in Prospero Burns, if memory serves me right.

The only things I recall about the unit, besides that they wore that kind of armor under dusters, is that they were with the 40th Expeditionary Fleet. They took part in the campaigns against the Fraemium Moons with the Blood Angels, and the xenos of X173 Plural alongside the White Scars. They were also involved in the destruction of the Olamic Quietude and Craftworld Thuyelsa.

I guess I will have to go back and re-read that book i guess, because I don't remember them at all and can't find anything on lexicanum.

That's fine tho, Was a good book anyway lol

Sadly, I never got to finish it. Something came up, and it was a borrowed copy. I ended up giving it back before I could sit down and finish reading it.


I did some searching and found them on the list of official Imperial Army/Imperial Guard regiments on the 40k Wiki.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Imperial_Guard_Regiments


It basically mentions what I posted above. The only thing I missed was the involvement of the Space Wolves in two of the campaigns.

Lockark, it's worth keeping in mind that Straken has a 3+ just because he has a bionic arm.

GW is consistent on this.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Lockark, it's worth keeping in mind that Straken has a 3+ just because he has a bionic arm.

GW is consistent on this.

Catachans get a 5+ from their manly abs so it's not like he is unique.