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Grav shots:
(2/3)(8/9)(1)(2/3) = 32/81 wounds/shot.

6 wounds take:
(6*81)/32, or 246/32 shots

Isn't that less than 2 Grav Cannons with Amps? And that's without Prescience.

What am I missing? Looks to me like Grav Cents would, on average, destroy a WK?

To get six wounds past FNP, you need nine wounds inflicted. To inflict nine wounds, you need ten to-wound rolls. To get ten to wound rolls with BS 4, you need fifteen shots. That's exactly what you have, but it's a bit worse because of rounding. With cover, you can forget it. With a 4+++ Stormsurge you can forget it.

I was assuming both the 5++ and FNP.

With any source of two saves, your chances of killing the WK are basically zero with 15 grav amp shots at BS 4.

If it has both a 5++ invuln and FNP, the Cents will kill it in two shooting phases, almost guaranteed, and they might kill it in one. It's not as simple as point-click-and-squish, but it's not totally unkillable if grav cents are your weapon of choice.

Throw in a few plasma guns, grav guns, meltas, lascannons, etc from a command squad, or some bikers, or a Predator, and you'll probably drop it in one round.

It's still a damned hard target, to be sure, but it's not hopeless.

jade_angel wrote:
If it has both a 5++ invuln and FNP, the Cents will kill it in two shooting phases, almost guaranteed, and they might kill it in one. It's not as simple as point-click-and-squish, but it's not totally unkillable if grav cents are your weapon of choice.

Throw in a few plasma guns, grav guns, meltas, lascannons, etc from a command squad, or some bikers, or a Predator, and you'll probably drop it in one round.

It's still a damned hard target, to be sure, but it's not hopeless.

For those of us without grav cannons it is. Even under your scenario, it is sucking up so much firepower that the rest of the Eldar are going to run roughshod over you. Keep in mind this thing can come with 45 warp spiders.

Oh, I see.

So, with Prescince:
(8/9)(8/9)(2/3)(2/3) = 256/729, or about 0.35.

So you need 17 shots on average to kill a WK that takes a 5++ option.

Just over 3 cannons to kill it.

I'd gladly give up grav if the rest of that list was toned down. Until then I'm not going to give up one of the few things that keeps marine in the game against Eldar Necrons and Tau.

... And as always, back to the "7.0" vs "7.5" debate.

"7.0" seems so much more fun.

Martel732 wrote:
Cover is a pretty good counter grav guns.

This.

Bharring wrote:
... And as always, back to the "7.0" vs "7.5" debate.

"7.0" seems so much more fun.

I disagree. The 7.0 codices have much worse internal AND external balance with each other, whereas the 7.5 codices have decent builds against one another, barring just some EXTREME examples.

I like some things from the 7.0 books like the alternate Force Org charts over the decurian style formations

But over all the 7.0 books are bland and crap versions of the previous editions. Orks, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Space wolves and I'll lump IG since the book was close to 7th's release are worse off than what they had before. The books all lost flavor, options, and truthfully just suck compared to the 5th edition books.

The alternate FOC's was a cool idea that were crap in execution. They had just...bland benefits.

The best way to fix Grav is to nerf MCs and GCs heavily, then reevaluate Grav. If it doesn't go in that order, then leave Grav alone.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The best way to fix Grav is to nerf MCs and GCs heavily, then reevaluate Grav. If it doesn't go in that order, then leave Grav alone.

Right, because the half dozen or so actual problem MCs mean that every single MC is automatically OP?!

Boy those Carnifexes, they're just completely impossible to deal with! Likewise those rampaging Daemon Princes, Talos/Chronos, all those other non-Flyrant big bugs, Squiggoths, GUO's, etc...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The best way to fix Grav is to nerf MCs and GCs heavily, then reevaluate Grav. If it doesn't go in that order, then leave Grav alone.

Right, because the half dozen or so actual problem MCs mean that every single MC is automatically OP?!

Boy those Carnifexes, they're just completely impossible to deal with! Likewise those rampaging Daemon Princes, Talos/Chronos, all those other non-Flyrant big bugs, Squiggoths, GUO's, etc...

They're far better than nearly any tank that costs the same.

Martel732 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The best way to fix Grav is to nerf MCs and GCs heavily, then reevaluate Grav. If it doesn't go in that order, then leave Grav alone.

Right, because the half dozen or so actual problem MCs mean that every single MC is automatically OP?!

Boy those Carnifexes, they're just completely impossible to deal with! Likewise those rampaging Daemon Princes, Talos/Chronos, all those other non-Flyrant big bugs, Squiggoths, GUO's, etc...

They're far better than nearly any tank that costs the same.

No, they're not... Daemon Princes are vying for 'worst MC in the entire game' status right now. If you can't kill T5/W4/3+/5++, that costs typically 250-300+pts (or more), then the problem is not with the game.

Carnifexes likewise are awful, as are most MC's that don't have "Riptide", "Dreadknight", "Wraithknight" or "Stormsurge" in their name.

Are they Land Raider awful? Predator awful? Leman Russ awful? Hammerhead awful? Devilfish awful? Pick-a-walker awful?

Didn't think so.

Eh, I'd rather have a Hammerhead than a Carnifex a good chunk of the time. Hammerheads can Jink, and AV13 is tough enough to matter.

And yeah, a non-flying Daemon Prince, a GUO or KoS isn't really any better than a Leman Russ or a Predator. (Though the Russ is pretty clearly better than the Predator for the cost, which doesn't say anything good about the Pred.) They're all nasty in assault, but as folks are fond of pointing out, assault is weak. Slow assault units are very weak. The Talos and Cronos only work well because of the Dark Artisan and Corpsethief Claw formations, and the Wraithlord is nigh unto useless. I'd rather have a Falcon. Indeed, I use Falcons regularly. Can't recall the last time I used a Wraithlord when I wasn't just screwing around.

That said, in the category of "not awful, but not OP"? Try the Exocrine, the Ghostkeel (outside the OSC), the Mawloc, the Lord of Change, Bloodthirster, or winged Daemon Prince. (Wingless bites, as established. But with wings, he's badass, though not OP. Just the 12" move makes him viable.)

Non-superheavy walkers, though? Well... War Walkers and Sentinels are decent, but that's because they're cheap and shooty. Ironclad dreads aren't atrocious, but I'd be hard-pressed to call them any better than decent. I want to like Penitent Engines, but they suck - glass cannons that aren't fast enough to get away with being glass cannons.

Can't carnifexes shoot, too?

Yeah, they can, and with good volume, which is what rescues them from the crap heap. That said, their shooting is short-range, and on a platform that's slow and a big target. So they fall into the "fairly decent, but not great" category. So do Hammerheads, IMHO. They're not terrible, but Broadsides are better.

Martel732 wrote:
Are they Land Raider awful? Predator awful? Leman Russ awful? Hammerhead awful? Devilfish awful? Pick-a-walker awful?

Didn't think so.

The Daemon Prince is among the most overcosted models in the entire game... 145pts base for a pathetic T5/W4/5++. It's 60pts total to give it a 3+ save (which only makes it weaker vs. grav btw!), and then typically another 50-75pts for Psyker levels.
This before you even consider giving him any actual Rewards/Wargear!! (and not including his mandatory Chaos alignment either!)

Land Raiders, Punisher/Conqurer Russ, Predators, Vindicators, Dreadnoughts, War Walkers, Sentinels... take your pick, those are all far superior or at worst, equal to the majority of the various MC's out there.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are they Land Raider awful? Predator awful? Leman Russ awful? Hammerhead awful? Devilfish awful? Pick-a-walker awful?

Didn't think so.

The Daemon Prince is among the most overcosted models in the entire game... 145pts base for a pathetic T5/W4/5++. It's 60pts total to give it a 3+ save (which only makes it weaker vs. grav btw!), and then typically another 50-75pts for Psyker levels.
This before you even consider giving him any actual Rewards/Wargear!! (and not including his mandatory Chaos alignment either!)

Land Raiders, Punisher/Conqurer Russ, Predators, Vindicators, Dreadnoughts, War Walkers, Sentinels... take your pick, those are all far superior or at worst, equal to the majority of the various MC's out there.

I remain very unconvinced of this. The MC USR is very generous, while the vehicle USR sucks.

If by 'very generous' you mean they give you 1 rules that is useless 99% of the time (Fear), a decent movement rule (MTC, which vehicles kind of have a different but kinda worse version of with the whole 'treat difficult as dangerous but can move full distance', though most vehicles can either purchase an upgrade to mostly ignore this (or ignore it outright) or just ignore its effects by being a skimmer or chariot), a rule vehicles have (Relentless), another meh rule (HoW) a rule vehicles have a better version of (can shoot 2 weapons, which is useless on CSM DPs as the only ranged weapon they can get is a single relic and is next to useless on CD DPs) and Smash, which is a great rule in one way (AP2) but terrible with it's other 'bonus'. Most combat walkers already have AP2 anyway at S10 by default with multiple attacks.

Vehicles are hampered by hull points being absolutely terrible. The MC rules aren't generous, they're pretty average. Vehicle rules just suck. If the MC rules are too generous to the point of being OP, then so are the Bike, Beast, Cavalry and Jet rules... which clearly aren't.

The problem is the profiles. Scatbikes are OP because of their profile, not the bike rules. Riptides are OP because of their profile, not the MC rules. WKs are OP because of their profile, not the GC rules (as evident by every other GMC that currently exists in the game, except the Tau one, being absolutely terrible).

I think Grav is a joke. But I love the savetowound mechanic. Nice twist. And I think if you could make it "AP -" it'd be fine. Maybe with 6'some to wound being AP2. Fine.

But having it AP2 with its savetowound mechanic, with rerolls to wound, preferred enemy in shooting with devastator doctrine is just disgusting.

It assumes that everyone is fielding WraithKnights. Which isn't on. WraithKnights are OP but the fix shouldn't be to make Tyranids utterly unviable forever

I just was at a "for fun" tournament that had at least 20 Riptides between the lists. Grav stays or Riptides go. Tyranids are caught in the middle, yes. If your opponents are using a lot of grav, go pseudo demons and use more little bugs.

I really don't see the issue people have with grav weapons. Armies that don't have monstrous creatures must have weapons that kill monstrous creatures.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
I really don't see the issue people have with grav weapons. Armies that don't have monstrous creatures must have weapons that kill monstrous creatures.

1. Because Grav is frankly OP in how it can easily mow down everything in the game, bar masses of light infantry - the one thing that Marines in general have 0 trouble dealing with.
It's too much of an automatic 'point-click-delete all' button. If Scatbikes are obnoxious, then Grav (especially the cannons) are equally obnoxious.

2. The vast majority of MC's are nowhere close to over powered!!
Wraithknights, Stormsurge, Riptides, Dreadknights, fully tooled-up LoC. That's literally it when it comes to "problem" MC's. And of those, the LoC is borderline problematic, since he still costs a whopping 305pts when fully tooled. (or more now, depending on which new relic you give him)
Every other MC in the game is either decent value, or else complete poop for their relevant cost.

3. The wounding mechanic makes 0 sense. The gun should be most effective vs. MC's, not the newest & 'bestest ever' MEQ/TEQ murder machine.
Make the to-wound roll based around the actual size of what it's shooting, so that things like regular infantry/cav/beasts aren't overly affected by it, while it gets deadlier to actual Bulky --> Very Bulky --> MC.


As it stands, Grav is a middle finger to Tyranids & CSM's as it hard-counters pretty much everything of note those already crappy codices can field.

Those "problem" MCs are the only ones I see anyone ever field, so they might as well be the only ones in the game for me. The weapons I use to kill MCs should not be designed to bring down the worst garbage someone can bring but to be something that even the biggest and baddest should be afraid of. Until monstrous creatures are toned down to something far less obnoxious than they are at this moment, I can never support nerfing grav even the tiniest bit.

And just btw, grav kills my army too.

In short, grav in tournaments is lovely as I run daemons.
So for me it's somewhat of an upgrade for me when someone spams it.

Against my nids though, I need to hug cover with the big guys or face losing them quickly.

I don't feel it's OP as such, I just think the standard for units and weapons is creeping up, so anything older is slowly falling between the cracks.