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Death Company are naturally more mobile and therefore actually make it to combat, and get hidden Power Fists.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Death Company ARE absolutely better than Berserker Marines. They get Jump Packs and hidden Power Fists. All you need after that is the Baal Strike Force and they're hitting before the Berserker Marines.

The hidden power fists point has merit, but BSF is never a good idea because BA NEED obsec because they suck so badly at killing stuff. People always overlook the fact that if DC het charged or don't sweep a unit in the first round of cc they are pretty much neutered. The power fists are legit if they live long enough to swing. The most effective way of running DC is msu which gets them blown off the table before they reach combat. kharn and a unit. Of berzerkers are actually worthy of a LR and definitely a dreadclaw if one is available. That fixes the mobility issue.

Since Pistols count as close combat weapons, could Mephiston decide to use his Pistol to attack with instead of his Force weapon?

That way if he gets of Sanguine Sword off he insta kills Kharn if he fails an armour save. Might be mathematically better.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Since Pistols count as close combat weapons, could Mephiston decide to use his Pistol to attack with instead of his Force weapon?

That way if he gets of Sanguine Sword off he insta kills Kharn if he fails an armour save. Might be mathematically better.

Yeah but kharn will get a 3+ against the pistol

 CrownAxe wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Since Pistols count as close combat weapons, could Mephiston decide to use his Pistol to attack with instead of his Force weapon?

That way if he gets of Sanguine Sword off he insta kills Kharn if he fails an armour save. Might be mathematically better.

Yeah but kharn will get a 3+ against the pistol

But he only needs 1 wound, vs the force sword which needs 3. I think it might be easier to cause 1 wound vs a 3+ then 3 wounds vs a 5++.

Well I just looked it up and Sanquine Sword only makes his Force Sword S10, nothing else

DC are harder to kill with boltguns. And stomps. DC aren't great; they are serviceable. Mostly because they get a 12" move for 3 pts. Berserkers get a LR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Well I just looked it up and Sanquine Sword only makes his Force Sword S10, nothing else

Okay. My plan was never going to be fight Kharn with Mephy anyway. I'll go fight your defiler with Mephy and shoot Kharn to kibble with grav bikers. Or Baal preds. Or typhoon speeders.

Martel732 wrote:
DC are harder to kill with boltguns. And stomps. DC aren't great; they are serviceable. Mostly because they get a 12" move for 3 pts. Berserkers get a LR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Well I just looked it up and Sanquine Sword only makes his Force Sword S10, nothing else

Okay. My plan was never going to be fight Kharn with Mephy anyway. I'll go fight your defiler with Mephy and shoot Kharn to kibble with grav bikers. Or Baal preds. Or typhoon speeders.

Grav probably is your best bet, but I played a game yesterday where a squad of chosen with a ML3 sorcerer and Huron went up against 3 Grav turions, and 6 of the Grav bits from admech. That's almost 40 Grav shots a turn and out of that squad Huron ended the game with a single wound and the Sorc didn't have the paint on his armor scratched ALL due to Iron arm and endurance. I've never seen anything like it because Huron and the Sorc Aate close to 150 Grav shots and all but 1 bounced.

On topic, I'M the only worthwhile advantage the DC have is the ability to take power weapons. Otherwise I'd go with the zerkers all day long.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DC are harder to kill with boltguns. And stomps. DC aren't great; they are serviceable. Mostly because they get a 12" move for 3 pts. Berserkers get a LR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Well I just looked it up and Sanquine Sword only makes his Force Sword S10, nothing else

Okay. My plan was never going to be fight Kharn with Mephy anyway. I'll go fight your defiler with Mephy and shoot Kharn to kibble with grav bikers. Or Baal preds. Or typhoon speeders.

Grav probably is your best bet, but I played a game yesterday where a squad of chosen with a ML3 sorcerer and Huron went up against 3 Grav turions, and 6 of the Grav bits from admech. That's almost 40 Grav shots a turn and out of that squad Huron ended the game with a single wound and the Sorc didn't have the paint on his armor scratched ALL due to Iron arm and endurance. I've never seen anything like it because Huron and the Sorc Aate close to 150 Grav shots and all but 1 bounced.

On topic, I'M the only worthwhile advantage the DC have is the ability to take power weapons. Otherwise I'd go with the zerkers all day long.

I think someone is playing with grav weapons incorrectly. 6 Kataphron destroyers with heavy grav cannons is 36 grav shots a turn. BS 3 means 18 hits. Wounding on a 3+ with AP 2 is about 12 AP 2 wounds in one round of shooting, just from the Destroyers. Iron Arm doesnt make them any harder to wound with grav weapons. Even with 5++/4+++ that should be 4 wounds a turn from just the destroyers. Then 15 shots from the cents is 2-3 more wounds a turn. If everything is taken with a 5++/4+++.......So 6-7 unsaved wounds a turn, on the ICs....on average of course.

No I know how to use Grav and I know how the spells work. His dice were just on fire while I rolled more 1s and 2s than I could shake a stick at. I could hit most of my shots, but I wounded less than half and he literally saved all but one on the ICs. The chosen were minced right away though.

Ahh. I read it as the entire unit survived and you only did one total wound. I feel that way when I play a friends necrons. Not only is a reclimation legion hard enough to kill on its own, be he routinely makes way better than average saves.

I always run Mephiston with 15 Death Company inside a Land Raider Crusader now. In 4 games they haven't been stopped. Three weeks ago Mephiston dropped a Knight, however the explosion took out the accompanying Chaplain and half the DC squad. But it was still awesome!

If Kharn and his Bezerkers were on the board, I wouldn't charge them until I'd whittled them down with fire. Then I'd charge the crap out of them. My DC are packing 4 Inferno pistols and three plasma pistols as well as a pair of power fists and four power swords. So they'd fire all of that, as well as the bolters I'm packing.

last time I checked, the entire squad has something in the region of 76 attacks on the charge. And that's after the Land Raider has fired everything that I can use as well.

I took out a large Deathwing squad and a Librarain two weeks ago in 1 round of combat. I lost a single DC marine from over watch as only his Sgt had a ranged weapon, the rest were packing lightning claws and Thunder hammers.

Last week they took out two DA tactical squads, and were then whittled down by fire from 3 Predators, an assault squad and a LR, with only 1 marine and Mephiston surviving. The assault squad charged and Mephiston killed the entire squad singlehandedly.

 Flugel Meister wrote:
I always run Mephiston with 15 Death Company inside a Land Raider Crusader now. In 4 games they haven't been stopped. Three weeks ago Mephiston dropped a Knight, however the explosion took out the accompanying Chaplain and half the DC squad. But it was still awesome!

If Kharn and his Bezerkers were on the board, I wouldn't charge them until I'd whittled them down with fire. Then I'd charge the crap out of them. My DC are packing 4 Inferno pistols and three plasma pistols as well as a pair of power fists and four power swords. So they'd fire all of that, as well as the bolters I'm packing.

last time I checked, the entire squad has something in the region of 76 attacks on the charge. And that's after the Land Raider has fired everything that I can use as well.

I took out a large Deathwing squad and a Librarain two weeks ago in 1 round of combat. I lost a single DC marine from over watch as only his Sgt had a ranged weapon, the rest were packing lightning claws and Thunder hammers.

Last week they took out two DA tactical squads, and were then whittled down by fire from 3 Predators, an assault squad and a LR, with only 1 marine and Mephiston surviving. The assault squad charged and Mephiston killed the entire squad singlehandedly.

What makes you think Kharn and friends aren't in a land raider of their own, especially since it's pretty much the only way to get him into combat without eating a boatload of small arms fire. Those sort of deathstars might sound nice on paper, but you're committing what, near on 600 points to them? A raider is a liability in a game where multiple ranged D weapons, haywire and grav is rampant and can easily cripple, destroy or just flat out remove your essential combat delivery system with ease and you don't have a single invulnerable save on any of them, so they're going to get their faces wrecked by anything with ap2/3 if they ever get out of their raider and can't immediately charge multiple somethings.

X

 Drasius wrote:

 Flugel Meister wrote:
I always run Mephiston with 15 Death Company inside a Land Raider Crusader now. In 4 games they haven't been stopped. Three weeks ago Mephiston dropped a Knight, however the explosion took out the accompanying Chaplain and half the DC squad. But it was still awesome!

If Kharn and his Bezerkers were on the board, I wouldn't charge them until I'd whittled them down with fire. Then I'd charge the crap out of them. My DC are packing 4 Inferno pistols and three plasma pistols as well as a pair of power fists and four power swords. So they'd fire all of that, as well as the bolters I'm packing.

last time I checked, the entire squad has something in the region of 76 attacks on the charge. And that's after the Land Raider has fired everything that I can use as well.

I took out a large Deathwing squad and a Librarain two weeks ago in 1 round of combat. I lost a single DC marine from over watch as only his Sgt had a ranged weapon, the rest were packing lightning claws and Thunder hammers.

Last week they took out two DA tactical squads, and were then whittled down by fire from 3 Predators, an assault squad and a LR, with only 1 marine and Mephiston surviving. The assault squad charged and Mephiston killed the entire squad singlehandedly.

What makes you think Kharn and friends aren't in a land raider of their own, especially since it's pretty much the only way to get him into combat without eating a boatload of small arms fire. Those sort of deathstars might sound nice on paper, but you're committing what, near on 600 points to them? A raider is a liability in a game where multiple ranged D weapons, haywire and grav is rampant and can easily cripple, destroy or just flat out remove your essential combat delivery system with ease and you don't have a single invulnerable save on any of them, so they're going to get their faces wrecked by anything with ap2/3 if they ever get out of their raider and can't immediately charge multiple somethings.

Never said they wouldn't , just that I use it and so far it's worked wonderfully.

And with the level of firepower pouring out that you've mentioned, it's better than walking. I would use a Stormraven, but I don't currently posses one.

But I think we've firmly established that Kharn has the upper hand in CC.

Kharn and Zerkers are actually quite good if you have a delivery mechanism.

My personal favorite is Be'Lakor + Dreadclaw Drop Pod

1) Drop pod comes in and they are allowed to stay inside for a turn. Drop pod has jink. Because reasons.

2) Be'Lakor flies up and casts shrouding. Drop pod has 2+ cover in the open.

3) Next turn (after your opponent has entirely given up on trying to kill said pod) Kharn and friends get out. It is an assault vehicle.

4) Be'Lakor casts invis. Kharn and friends charge.

5) Profit

I'd like to point out that invisible Zerkers don't care if they win combat in one turn or not (which with Kharn as the warlord they usually do)

So how those zerkers and DC on foot going to catch warp spider and scatter bike spam lol

Both ICs and their attached units are so very bad in the current meta... None of them have a HnR, Orikanstar, screamer star or any other invisible deathstar can tar pit them easily for the whole game.

Tactically if you want a DC Star to work competively you need to allied in WS Libby conclave on bikes and maybe some Iron priests on TWs. Make it a thousand points+ deathstar that eats face lol.

Chaos SM just frikin sucks... Can't make a reliable deathstar at all to compete in the current top meta.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So how those zerkers and DC on foot going to catch warp spider and scatter bike spam lol

Both ICs and their attached units are so very bad in the current meta... None of them have a HnR, Orikanstar, screamer star or any other invisible deathstar can tar pit them easily for the whole game.

Tactically if you want a DC Star to work competively you need to allied in WS Libby conclave on bikes and maybe some Iron priests on TWs. Make it a thousand points+ deathstar that eats face lol.

Chaos SM just frikin sucks... Can't make a reliable deathstar at all to compete in the current top meta.

You must have missed the OP....or the headline......or maybe the entire thread all together.

The question is Who wins in CC Mephiston or Kharn?....the question is not who is better in the current meta? Are these ICs any good? How can I build a deathstar? etc etc.

Thanks for playing but try again.

 Tenzilla wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So how those zerkers and DC on foot going to catch warp spider and scatter bike spam lol

Both ICs and their attached units are so very bad in the current meta... None of them have a HnR, Orikanstar, screamer star or any other invisible deathstar can tar pit them easily for the whole game.

Tactically if you want a DC Star to work competively you need to allied in WS Libby conclave on bikes and maybe some Iron priests on TWs. Make it a thousand points+ deathstar that eats face lol.

Chaos SM just frikin sucks... Can't make a reliable deathstar at all to compete in the current top meta.

You must have missed the OP....or the headline......or maybe the entire thread all together.

The question is Who wins in CC Mephiston or Kharn?....the question is not who is better in the current meta? Are these ICs any good? How can I build a deathstar? etc etc.

Thanks for playing but try again.

That question was already answered and its Kharn. I was really replying to some of the other discussions in the thread, should of quoted somebody.

Now have a seat

I'd just like to point out that no, Invisibility does not tarpit Khârn. He hits on 2+. Invisibility makes him hit on 6+. Khârn has the more advanced rule, so he hits on 2+.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd just like to point out that no, Invisibility does not tarpit Khârn. He hits on 2+. Invisibility makes him hit on 6+. Khârn has the more advanced rule, so he hits on 2+.

Invis is more for the protection from the zerkers assuming one brings a lot of them to keep Kharn alive. Besides you don't really need to tarpit a Kharnstar(if theres such thing), at T4 3+, 5++ and only 3W, he will die pretty fast... also any to-hit roll of 1 he kills one of his own lol.

Kharn will, probably lose if he goes second one on one. Death Company vs Bezerkers, They whack each other into oblivion, and any other escort, like Veteran Vanguard will slaughter Bezerkers with their power weapons. Kharn has to accept the challenge, due to Chaos.

Sadly, either loses to Wulfen, at a five man squad and murders the remains of their escort, before either get to strike. For 230 points. And those are all dedicated CC units.

Mechanically, on a Kharn Charge, both will kill each other. Unless Kharn is I6, then Meph has to get Quickening off, which is, situational.

gatebuster202 wrote:
Kharn will, probably lose if he goes second one on one. Death Company vs Bezerkers, They whack each other into oblivion, and any other escort, like Veteran Vanguard will slaughter Bezerkers with their power weapons. Kharn has to accept the challenge, due to Chaos.

Sadly, either loses to Wulfen, at a five man squad and murders the remains of their escort, before either get to strike. For 230 points. And those are all dedicated CC units.

Mechanically, on a Kharn Charge, both will kill each other. Unless Kharn is I6, then Meph has to get Quickening off, which is, situational.

Used to be I6 on the charge. RIP furious charge

Then Kharn, will die if Meph charges with any Init bonus... RIP Kharn

gatebuster202 wrote:
Then Kharn, will die if Meph charges with any Init bonus... RIP Kharn

Maybe. Mephiston can't ID Kharn so he actually has to go through all of Kharn's wounds. Not as easy as that might sound with Kharn's invulnerable save. If Kharn doesn't die, Mephiston with no invuln save almost certainly will. Hitting on 2+ OP

nareik wrote:
Kharn is a tiny lego brick of pain to an IK. 0/10 would not stand on again.

I love that Kharn is one of an Imperial Knights' most feared enemies

Played against a Khorne army last night. Guess who rocked up on the board? That's right, Kharn.

I had:

Mephiston
Chaplain with JP

15 DC (in LR Crusader)
5 DC with JP
5 Terminators

Rafen's DC
Moriar in Lucius DP

1 LR Crusader
1 Predator

He had bloodhounds, a bloodthirster, 3 squads of cultists, a squad of Bezerkers, Kharn, 2 Forgefiends, a LR, Rhino and 2 squads of bloodletters. Oh, and some guy who was the equivalent of a SM Chaplain. The last squad he had was a group of large, ugly fleshy beats things. Slow but tough.

I'll cut to the chase and tell you that Kharn and Mephiston never got the chance to duke it out. They were too far apart. I deployed first and he stole the initiative, destroying my predator with his LR. Mid-way through the game, after my DC had enjoyed spilling plenty of blood, his LR opened its doors and Kharn and his Bezerkers jumped out. However, Kharn charged my terminators that had teleported in, and his bezerkers went for Rafen's squad, who were locked in combat against a forgefiend.

Kharn killed 3 of my Terminators in CC, then the other two punched him in the face with powerfists and his head exploded. I thought he'd be much harder to kill than that.

I lost rafen in a challenge and his squad. The rest of the Rafen's squad killed 3 Bezerkers before they died. Then my Mephiston and 15 DC squad took care of them, Mephiston felling the remainder singlehandedly.

His Bloodthirster charged my Chaplain and my other 5 DC squad after they had fought his beast things, no idea what they're called. By the end of the game that squad was reduced to the powerfist DC marine and the thirster was on 1 wound.

Thoroughly enjoyable game with plenty of CC going on everywhere. Moriar dropped in, was pretty much ignored, and then took out a squad of bloodletters after 2 rounds CC. He was closing in on the Bloodthirster when my opponent conceded.

Separately, another game was taking place in the club, Dark Eldar vs Blood Angels. The BA player went first, deployed via stormravens, etc, with Dante and Co. and charged on the first turn. There wasn't a second turn. The DE player conceded.

I'm 95% sure that the rule was intended to stop the force special rule from killing him, rather then having attacks that are double his toughness. Most people who say otherwise are either grasping, or trying to be a strict "RAW" player when it benefits them.

 Brennonjw wrote:
trying to be a strict "RAW" player when it benefits them.

It's a slippery slope determining what you should play RAW vs RAI. How do you choose when you should follow RAW and when you should follow what you think the rule was intended for? I tend to follow the thought that by playing everything as RAW you bring some clarity to the somewhat confusing rule set.

In fairness, Kharn, despite being hard as nails, should never go into combat against a squad without support. The same goes for Mephiston. I wouldn't use either individually against a squad of terminators.

In fact, in that very same game, Mephiston failed to score a single hull point against a land raider, despite having 6 strength 10 attacks. That could easily happen against a squad.