Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
So the PDFs have been going out, I've got mine (sorry if you've not received yours yet) and to christen (for me anyway) the new misc sci fi forum I thought I'd share my thoughts.
I managed to get a couple of games in (4 me vs me and 2 against a mate), please let me know if anything I say below is just me getting the rules wrong.
The big gripes I had are now gone e.g. Not being able to kill someone with a HMG - now not only can I kill someone it's easier because of the weight of fire rule
And the +1 survive if your suppressed even tho I've got a clean shot at you, if I can't see your finger but your not actually in cover +1 survive as well. now there's only modifiers to attack not defend with shooting.
But with these going some of the things I did like have gone too e.g
The melee chequers move is now gone. In fact if you win a combat you now you just stand there, normally out in the open so you die with the next enemy activation.......
Secret mission cards. I know you can roll a dice but it just doesn't feel as good to me.
The removal of overwatch and Aim. Now aim I can understand as there's no cover modifier anymore but why no overwatch.....
No cover modifier, I know I said about that being a gripe above but what I was griping about above was units getting modifiers when they weren't taking active cover, if someone is hunkered down taking cover I'm ok with that guy getting a bonus. If it's just cause from my angle I can't see his foot but he is fully out in the open then he shouldn't.
I may look at adding some of the above back into my games but I'll play it vanilla a couple more times first. If any of the rules committee are reading and can tell me why the above were cut that would help me not waste time trying to add them back in if they are flawed.
My enforcer sniper doesn't get +2 with his pistol as well, which is fair but I'll miss those times my sniper has run over and capped a stage 1 in the face.
The item upgrade rules are don't seem right to me, if I give my enforcer a shotgun I replace his laser rifle and this costs 1 point, but the shot gun costs less than the laser rifle shouldn't I be taking away a point instead?
There are new things I really like too
It's a lot quicker, close to Mars attacks speed.
Things actually die now not just get suppressed out of the game
Being able to customise units. As above it doesn't make sense right now but I like the idea
I can win with the Rebs, both the games against my mate were me playing Rebs and both times I won *cue evil laugh*
The size mechanic is great and adds a much needed level of detail to the stat lines.
The command dice and leader specific special rules are superior to the old cards.
The Reb Commander is now a badass
Frag and blast now only effect 1 cube not 9.
Overall I've had a lot of fun with Deadzone 2.0 and the first impression is a very positive one.
Have you had a chance to play 2.0 yet?
How was your Experience?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/08 22:58:50
Hey, glad you're liking v2 overall, I'm on the RC and can answer some of the questions, although with the core rules the bulk of it is Mantic's work, our work was mostly focused on balancing the army lists properly.
But with these going some of the things I did like have gone too e.g
The melee chequers move is now gone. In fact if you win a combat you now you just stand there, normally out in the open so you die with the next enemy activation.......
Melee was far too powerful in v1, and the infinite free fights thing was one of the most hated parts of v1, mawbeast spam lists stacking command actions with cards reigned supreme.
The focus of v2 is mobile firepower, melee is used to capture ground, counter assault or simply to tie up models. It still is useful but you do have to be careful and think if anything is going to kill you if you kill the enemy model. The game is now very reactive like that.
Secret mission cards. I know you can roll a dice but it just doesn't feel as good to me.
Cards are gone entirely. Mantic's decision and one that makes a lot of sense, cards can't be errata'ed, are expensive to buy and produce and are not easily updated. One book and one FAQ document is all that Deadzone will need for a very long time. At £6.49 a deck they were a major cost barrier for the game and made the starter sets more expensive than they should have been. We added the secret missions via dice after feedback from people who wanted them.
The removal of overwatch and Aim. Now aim I can understand as there's no cover modifier anymore but why no overwatch.....
Single activations, the game is more reactive. In v1, one player could activate 7 models before their opponent got to do anything. In v2, 1 is the standard, 2 is the maximum with command dice usage. Overwatch isn't a necessity anymore, so it was removed to make the game faster.
No cover modifier, I know I said about that being a gripe above but what I was griping about above was units getting modifiers when they weren't taking active cover, if someone is hunkered down taking cover I'm ok with that guy getting a bonus. If it's just cause from my angle I can't see his foot but he is fully out in the open then he shouldn't.
Removal of micromanagemant and "what counts as a cover cube?" The line of sight thing was exactly the same as v1, even if there's a foot behind cover, it isn't a clear shot, it keeps the game fast and argument-free, something which LoS rules like "more than half visible) do not achieve.
The item upgrade rules are don't seem right to me, if I give my enforcer a shotgun I replace his laser rifle and this costs 1 point, but the shot gun costs less than the laser rifle shouldn't I be taking away a point instead?
No. The upgrades system is carefully balanced to be costed relative to the base equipment. In the case of the shotgun you are paying for the option and flexibility of combining it with other equipment (such as defender shield). Also, a laser rifle is worth 2 points to a model that doesn't have it, but not to a model which already does, where it is replaced. This is something where we've been very careful about points balance. There may be some options that appear slightly overcosted, but there won't be any broken "must-have" combos that everyone puts on all their models. List building will be strategy-focused, much like it is with KoW, and most builds using a variety of different models will be possible to play and win with. The base points costs have risen by around 50% since v1, which has given us a lot more room for granular points cost balancing.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/03/31 14:06:11
2016/03/31 15:32:18
Subject: [Mantic][Deadzone] Deadzone 2.0 First Impressions
Hey, glad you're liking v2 overall, I'm on the RC and can answer some of the questions, although with the core rules the bulk of it is Mantic's work, our work was mostly focused on balancing the army lists properly.
But with these going some of the things I did like have gone too e.g
The melee chequers move is now gone. In fact if you win a combat you now you just stand there, normally out in the open so you die with the next enemy activation.......
Melee was far too powerful in v1, and the infinite free fights thing was one of the most hated parts of v1, mawbeast spam lists stacking command actions with cards reigned supreme.
The focus of v2 is mobile firepower, melee is used to capture ground, counter assault or simply to tie up models. It still is useful but you do have to be careful and think if anything is going to kill you if you kill the enemy model. The game is now very reactive like that.
Secret mission cards. I know you can roll a dice but it just doesn't feel as good to me.
Cards are gone entirely. Mantic's decision and one that makes a lot of sense, cards can't be errata'ed, are expensive to buy and produce and are not easily updated. One book and one FAQ document is all that Deadzone will need for a very long time. At £6.49 a deck they were a major cost barrier for the game and made the starter sets more expensive than they should have been. We added the secret missions via dice after feedback from people who wanted them.
The removal of overwatch and Aim. Now aim I can understand as there's no cover modifier anymore but why no overwatch.....
Single activations, the game is more reactive. In v1, one player could activate 7 models before their opponent got to do anything. In v2, 1 is the standard, 2 is the maximum with command dice usage. Overwatch isn't a necessity anymore, so it was removed to make the game faster.
No cover modifier, I know I said about that being a gripe above but what I was griping about above was units getting modifiers when they weren't taking active cover, if someone is hunkered down taking cover I'm ok with that guy getting a bonus. If it's just cause from my angle I can't see his foot but he is fully out in the open then he shouldn't.
Removal of micromanagemant and "what counts as a cover cube?" The line of sight thing was exactly the same as v1, even if there's a foot behind cover, it isn't a clear shot, it keeps the game fast and argument-free, something which LoS rules like "more than half visible) do not achieve.
The item upgrade rules are don't seem right to me, if I give my enforcer a shotgun I replace his laser rifle and this costs 1 point, but the shot gun costs less than the laser rifle shouldn't I be taking away a point instead?
No. The upgrades system is carefully balanced to be costed relative to the base equipment. In the case of the shotgun you are paying for the option and flexibility of combining it with other equipment (such as defender shield). Also, a laser rifle is worth 2 points to a model that doesn't have it, but not to a model which already does, where it is replaced. This is something where we've been very careful about points balance. There may be some options that appear slightly overcosted, but there won't be any broken "must-have" combos that everyone puts on all their models. List building will be strategy-focused, much like it is with KoW, and most builds using a variety of different models will be possible to play and win with. The base points costs have risen by around 50% since v1, which has given us a lot more room for granular points cost balancing.
Thanks for the response, I was hoping you'd stop by.
Re Melee - I understand why the chequers move removed it was overpowered great fun but yes overpowered.
For me if I'm going plague list I'm trying to get into combat asap if I do charge and kill my opponent it's likely to leave me out in the open with my opponent getting +2 to shoot me. In fact I used my kraaw as bait for my mate playing plague for this reason.
My gut is telling me that the combat to shooting pendulum has gone too far.
Re overwatch - yea there should only be 2 of your opponents acting but overwatch for me is more about tactical flexibility.
It gives the option to create ambushes and crossfires
In high density terrain tables it also allows you to react if there is nothing to do that turn. And you can't just pass over to your opponent.
E.g first round enforcers vs Rebs the was no shooting as everyone was positioning themselves and running through gaps into cover. Overwatch would have allowed us to take a pot shot at those guys.
Rebs vs plague - my kraaw was camped on an objective with a stage 2 (and a move dice) around the corner, my opponent waited until I was forced to just idle my kraaw then charged in if I'd been able to overwatch the Kraaw could have tried to stop the stage 2 from ripping him apart.
Re secret mission cards, yea I understand the reason and the dice tables work it would but nice if they came back as an optional thing tho.
Re cover - yea didn't like the idea of cover cubes at all. but isn't there a way of differentiating someone who is taking Active cover from Someone who isn't and still be less micromanagy
Infinity uses a system that you need to be in base contact with the cover to gain a benefit do you know if something like that was tried with 2.0
Re item points cost Makes more sense now you've explained it, e.g balance across all not just in one specific combo.
Thanks again, do you know when the first FAQs is planned
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/31 16:09:10
Thanks for the review. Some of our club members bought into DZ, but never got around to playing. Maybe this new version will get us to give the game a try.
What I would be curious to find out is if V2 is easier to pick up and learn. It's been a while since I looked at the V1 rules, but my eyes had a tendency to glaze over. If this has simpler rules, that would be great.
I'm also curious if it is at all possible to work in the zombie AI cards. I know cards are out, but I bought the deck and I'd like to be able to use it.
I'd say overwatch is less of a necessity since your not facing up to 5-7 enemy models activating before you got to do anything back. It would be less useful now as well because fighting and shooting are more lethal, meaning that you probably don't desperately need to put that mawbeast down or whatever.
@Barzam
Lots of the fiddly rules have been reworked. Grenades, Suppression, Cover cubes, fire. Stat lines are almost card/stat line hybrids. Great for my wife who misses the cards.
It's uncomplicated enough that my wife can play, tactically too I might add. We've got almost an even win/lose ratio! which is pretty impressive considering I've been playing TB Skirmish games for years and years. She on the other hand isn't into games, nearly at all. Once she figured out the basics, tactical thinking just seemed to develop for her.
I'd say set up a board and put a couple minis down, then read through the rulebook. Being able to actually see the effect a rule has is really useful for understanding. My wife really benefits from a tactile learning experience I've found.
The Zombies didn't use cards, they had a set of actions they took in reaction to things the player(s) did. EG. If you moved a model into a new square any zombie with LOS moved 1 square towards you. They also had a mechanic to bring more zombies on based on actions taken.
The AI cards are supposed to be used to play single player games, The cards themselves should
still work though. The Zombie rules were only a few pages, of the book.
There is a reference sheet built into the V2 book as well which is nice.
Some of the weapon list stuff is a matter of future-proofing.
There is a reference sheet built into the V2 book as well which is nice.
I wrote that, although Mantic edited it quite a bit to convert it to bullet points. Very useful for the first few games until you have all the modifiers memorized.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/06 21:24:22
2016/04/08 02:56:18
Subject: Re:[Mantic][Deadzone] Deadzone 2.0 First Impressions
I'm just going to use this thread as general discussion
I've been thinking about the rats and how I'm going to do them. I'm thinking that most of the rats have been genetically enhanced, but not from birth right? If that's the case, I'm going to do lots of scars, nibbled ears, lost fingers and implants poking through the skin. A relatively uniform skin and hair colour would further the impression that the rats have been genetically engineered from a relatively small breeding stock.
-OR-
Lots of piercings, tattered cloth, tattoos and broken teeth. maybe sculpt up some arm gribblies that pay homage to the originals. Differing skin and fur colour. I'd be using romain's hair technique. This way I'd be breaking up the relatively clean look and adding some some grit along the way.
romains body hair technique
Spoiler:
@stroodles
Yeah just write down the chart and use d6 for the moment. If you need the symbols now, try your local art & crafts store for small square stickers and use those.
@Squig
I really like the infestation elite army lists. The rebs leader as written is a nice suprise! All or nothing fits better with the rebs I think. I hope the rebs moving forward have more of that freedom fighter/terrorist flavour than they do currently. Adrienne Nikolovski has that flavour. I can't wait to have him leading a ragtag band of idealists. I want to give all the bog standard guys AP grenades though. Maybe increase the cost but bump them down to common? FF and enforcers are pretty tough to deal with, if you use that list in my opinion. Looks like reb players are definitely going to want to pick up some Sphyr lancers. I will be for sure.
Chief Mauhulakh is interesting, I wonder how he will play with the Mawbeasts,
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/08 19:44:29
I'd love to hear if the Rebels are more competitive. The last game of DZv1 I played was as the Rebels... Man, that pretty much sucked the fun out of the game like a popped balloon. They were awful (didn't help that my sneaky opponent snarled up my one interesting figure, the Teraton, with a bunch of melee plague dogs. But that was my fault, mostly!)
I'm looking forward to seeing what heavy weapon a termie is using that a scout is also trying to lug around, in the future.
I'm using my spess mehrines as enforcers, no sweat. I thought I could slot in chaos as Plague but man, that is a lot of melee units! Kind of cultist and demon heavy too
The new rules look great. I can't wait to get v2 to the table. I was completely done with v1, but this looks like an excellent streamlining and revamping
Going to play first game on Thursday. Excited to see how it is now. Ended up getting blank dice with stickers and making them look like the ones they used to playtest with.
Anyone know when the official ones will be for sale? I saw march 24th update on KS they are starting to ship soon
Had a test game yesterday and I liked, less messy and slow compared to the first edition. My poor plague mutants got slapped though, not a single kill inflicted on their enforcer opponents
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/18 14:41:35
I also like it a ton better then the first edition. Plays in about 30 min or so once you get the hang of it.
The dice are good.
The one big issue though I feel is still balance.
I took Asterian force of the big leader, 3 Basic gunners and the Merc Sniper lady vs the plague. He had 8 models and she killed 5 of the 8 like they were nothing. At one point he was just removing models from the table before I rolled.
Her sniper isn't heavy, and she is a 3+ shoot. She was most of the time getting 6 dice without even adding dice. At point point she had 9. She is highly undercosteded at 25 points.
I also like it a ton better then the first edition. Plays in about 30 min or so once you get the hang of it.
The dice are good.
The one big issue though I feel is still balance.
I took Asterian force of the big leader, 3 Basic gunners and the Merc Sniper lady vs the plague. He had 8 models and she killed 5 of the 8 like they were nothing. At one point he was just removing models from the table before I rolled.
Her sniper isn't heavy, and she is a 3+ shoot. She was most of the time getting 6 dice without even adding dice. At point point she had 9. She is highly undercosteded at 25 points.
That doesn't sound like balance issues, that sounds like fickle dice gods IMO.
@Stroodles, Try smoke grenades, block some of the open firelanes, before moving out. How much terrain are you using?
Automatically Appended Next Post: try using the pulse bombard drone platform, the name escapes me. It sounds like he "camped" her right? The traditional answer is mortar and arty.
The smoke grenades can be used a few different ways. If your getting one shotted on the first try keep everyone out of LOS as a priority, if your facing a range heavy striketeam/unit you've got to deny them the chance to hit first.
With a 5+ survive and no armour, if you can get a good shot, she dies.
The hobgoblin would be a good unit to sneak around from cover to cover toss grenades.
Additionally you're asterians, you should be able to put enough shoot dice on anything that it dies.
Thanks for coming back and sharing!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/18 18:40:41
Sorry, I used her AS asterians. So everyone but the commander was a +3 Shoot.
Smoke and Grenades would work yea but you don't know what the opponent brings so its hard to just have the counters for her.
Terrain was a normal amount. Lesser on the edges and more in the middle. It doesent really give a good idea on how much to use. Just no 3x3 section should not be bear, which is a large part of the mat anyways.
Will be playing again Thursday. Like I said I like it toooons more. I just feel out the gate that she is a little undercosted. Atleast if she had a heavy sniper it might make it better so she cant keep moving and shooting
For Terrain I've rarely got a 1x2 section free from anything. Either small rubble piles or what have you. Mind I play in very dense urban areas. A lot of height differences, cluttered streets and large LOS blockers. Very few avenues of completely clear fire. It can be pretty variable in general so that why smoke grenades are a good take. They are useful no matter the board.
If the board edge that you guys are deployed has no cover the game will be short but bloody which can be fun two. I find thise sort of setup works better with ranged v ranged or melee v melee.
swarms could be a good choice. Problem is getting them there. If either of you have the contagion expansion or a zombie collection you could probably drown the Asterians in bodies. Tough, and horde are pretty useful. If your not using any indirect weapons then there isn't really a good way to put down 10+ zombies before they close in .
Or the plague player can build a beast/monster heavy strike team. Basically giving the asterians to many large multiple wound models to put down before they can close the gap. Plague teratons, 1As, 2As and aberrations.
no worries, I just like talking DZ
Is your next set of games going to be plague and asterian again? It's a neat match up, that you don't hear much about, despite the fluff.
Not positive on the next match. I think I will stick to the asterians just to see if maybe it was dumb luck I did so well. He will do Plague or Forgefathers as he has the most for them.
Do you have any pictures of your table set up? I wish the book included a good example. Terrain is so huge in a 2x2 map and id like to get it right
This is picture heavy so if OP wants I can spoiler this post.
So here's what I like to play on. This is just my preferred amount of terrain. Overview of the board
You'll notice that I'm using some of the barricades as bridges and in addition have made some of my own. It's really important in my opinion to give melee focused a way up to the highest levels of the board.
Close up of a bridge. Basically made out of lolipop sticks, cardboard, BZ tile, Superglue, Hot glue and green stuff for the rivets.
The view from a deployment zone. This just shows how dense the board is making it hard to Clear Shot across the board.
This last one highlights my use of the braces, by clipping off one of the nubs They are then topped with cardboard half squares which just breaks up the general shape and give more height options. this also makes it easier for guys to move around. Unfortunately I can't find my set of half squares. A few rivets can make a huge difference here.
Okay now lets assume that you don't have that much BZ too do a dense board like that. With less, placement is more important. Examples below.
Stretch your terrain. Their are several ways to do this.
1. the rubble blobs can act as the most basic cover, used to fill gaps and give a better points of approach.
2. Each deployment zone has something to hide behind.
3. The barricades are a great way to add some cover in long expanses of openness.
4. Use bits from around the house. A cheap glue gun, cardboard and sprue can net you with a small time investment, a good solid LOS blocking buildings.
5. The ruins are the cheapest of the BZ's and can using number 4. be reinforced to make the skeletal structure for a ruined hovel or similar.
The Enforcers overwhelmed the Forge fathers and drove them from the battlefield.
The best part was having the Mors Lord squish 3 assault enforcers, the remaining two tried to counter attack but failed. They realized that fighting a Blast(D3) Melee weapon is a bad Idea and fled.
The Enforcer Captain took a bunch of fire trying to close range and died almost immediately.
Game 2
The Forge guard got hit hard pretty early. and were left unable to respond.
The Brokkrs only managed to kill a single enforcer at range. When the assault enforcers closed to assault, the Brokkrs killed two enforcers in response. The Forge Lord joined the fray and killed two more enforcers leaving only the unit leader.. The enforcer captain following in the assault enforcers wake, managed to squeeze through and pummel the Forge Lord. On the other side of the board a unit of enforcers came under fire from the single remaining Forge Guard. That single Forge Guard killed three of those enforcers before fleeing after he looked around and realised it was just him and two Brokkrs. Being outnumbered 3-1 they fled. Enforcers win.
Two 550-600 point games between Enforcers and Forgefatthers.
Enforcers 2 - Forgfathers -0 I messed up during list building and dumped a ton of points into a brokkr unit. They're really good at killing armoured guys with all the thermal tech, but die like brokkrs. They probably didn't need the leader or engineer upgrade. That probably cost me both games. Currently I'm limited in what full units I can deploy, to what I own, which is mostly for deadzone. Once I get my hands on my LD pledge for DZI I should be able to bump up the points a bit and bring in some heavier stuff.
Hm... while some of the changes are pretty cool, I really think the lists couldve done with a lot more testing... and the weapon system seems needlessly complicated. I mean, why have the two-tiered system if you could just have a few weapon classes? Say, small arms, pistols, heavy, support and melee?
The x(y) system is a bit too confusing, imo, especially since DZ was boasting about being easy to learn...
Theres also the really limited options for some lists, like plague. I mean, plague doesnt even *have* mellee options... Rebs have completely useless drones, and lots of other specialists that dont really seem like specialists... Veermyn seem to be pretty underpowered from what Ive heard, though I havent played with or against them myself... still. The beta shouldve been way longer. At least two or three extra months. It really seems like a major issue with Mantic: They always seem to rush their games. Why not just do it right the first time? :/
A friend of mine recently traded me his unused KS Deadzone lot for some RPG stuff and now I find there is a 2.0. As someone with the KS (Strikezone I believe) stuff what should I be looking for?
I liked the minis and wanted the terrain for multiple uses so I still win, but I did want to play the game as well.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Legion: Dark Angels 
