Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Huh, well, this thread surprised me. I was expecting the usual "It's bad when GW does it, it's fine when PP does it" spiel. Is the fanbase finally growing up?

The fanbase has always been grown up, it's just GW "does it" far more than anyone else.

No, the fanbase has always been blind, immature and hypocritical. PP decided to be GW whilst working on Mk2 at the latest and they were defended every step of the way, from nerfing models and then giving a new model the old model's rules to make people buy a new model to get access to old abilities, to jacking up prices when switching from metal to plastic justified by "extra bits", then still doing it with kits that don't even have extra bits, to abandoning a "specialist game" without even an explanation, to censoring criticism, to ridiculing GW and their fans, then turning around and doing the exact same things (plastic is for nancy boys!)

This isn't a new direction for PP, just another stepping stone on a path they've been taking for many years. Just the first time the majority is outraged because it hits them in the wallet.

What's important here is that we the community can attack each other as much and as harshly as at all possible, clearly. Nevermind anything else, this news must be taken advantage of to score points in an asinine power struggle between fandoms!

...eedjits.

Everything I know I learned from you.

Hasn't been much, then, has it?

The constant tit for tat point-scoring excercise between GW and PP fans seems rather infantile to me.

Can I just point out, if it hasn't been said already, that this is a company built on a ruleset that tells people to "Play like they have a pair...", and seems a magnetic for antagonism?

I've met many great Warmahordes players, and the game is tight, but I've also never seen a community so belligerant. I feel like that has to come from somewhere, and seeing one of the worst written press-releases from a company I have ever seen, in that same tone, somehow doesn't surprise me.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Can I just point out, if it hasn't been said already, that this is a company built on a ruleset that tells people to "Play like they have a pair...", and seems a magnetic for antagonism?

I've met many great Warmahordes players, and the game is tight, but I've also never seen a community so belligerant. I feel like that has to come from somewhere, and seeing one of the worst written press-releases from a company I have ever seen, in that same tone, somehow doesn't surprise me.

My experience with the game is that a lot of players are pretty cool, individually. I'll say all sorts of nasty things about the game and its makers, but I've have nothing but pleasant experiences with the players, even if they occasionally frustrate me with their choices.

Besides, I think this is an issue that is more and more affecting the entirety of physical gaming. Games Workshop was the first, but several other companies have followed suit, and I doubt Privateer Press will be the last one. I think we need to come together and communicate that these changes are not in the best interest of their customers, and making an already expensive niche hobby even more expensive will ultimately create less players, not more.

I haven't been able to afford miniatures for two months because $30 is the minimum buy-in price, and I'm worried that if this continues and my involvement becomes less an less, I'll end up abandoning miniature games altogether. Because of price. I no longer play Warmachine, but any chance that I would was basically removed with a 20% price increase.

Just buy less. I'm sure lower sales will be a clear message

I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.

If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.

If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad

I'm in the same boat. When I lived in San Diego there were two stores but I didn't really game at either of those but now I live in Lemoore and it's an hour drive to a store that charges MSRP or higher. It's got a huge gaming area but I don't know anyone there and tend to game in my home.

 MLaw wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.

If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad

I'm in the same boat. When I lived in San Diego there were two stores but I didn't really game at either of those but now I live in Lemoore and it's an hour drive to a store that charges MSRP or higher. It's got a huge gaming area but I don't know anyone there and tend to game in my home.

It's not impossible for me to make the trip, but because the costs involved are high, it's almost as though I'm paying the Australian Tax on miniatures

Buying online is a no-brainer.

That is the biggest problem with this sort of policy. They're defending one aspect of the industry in one setting (Game stores in the US). But in doing so, they harm customers in other settings (rural customers, and probably distributors in Europe who can't play by those rules).

I think companies often tend to gravitate toward the models they know and understand. GW often seems tonedeaf and stupid to americans because their model was developed (and works fairly well) in the UK, but doesn't transfer as well to the US where there are more game stores and crucially, cheaper rents for game stores with lots of floor space.

On the flipside, this policy of Privateer Press makes sense in the US where the FLGS is the heart of most gaming communities, but less in the UK where there is less market penetration.

I mean, in Ireland, you're talking about maybe 3 or 4 places where you can buy PP models at all.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Can I just point out, if it hasn't been said already, that this is a company built on a ruleset that tells people to "Play like they have a pair...", and seems a magnetic for antagonism?

I've met many great Warmahordes players, and the game is tight, but I've also never seen a community so belligerant. I feel like that has to come from somewhere, and seeing one of the worst written press-releases from a company I have ever seen, in that same tone, somehow doesn't surprise me.

My thoughts exactly. I would still play and enjoy the game, but the typical players ruined it for me. I can't go to a local league/open play/whatever night because there is a fair-to-strong chance I'm going to get paired with an aggressive, power gaming, hobby-doesn't-matter douche that I then either have to suffer a game with to be "cool" with the group, or deny a game to and be considered a stuck up donkey-cave. Not worth it if you want to just paint cool models and have fun playing a game.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Hasn't been much, then, has it?

The constant tit for tat point-scoring excercise between GW and PP fans seems rather infantile to me.

UWOTM8!

My wargame company could totally beat up your wargaming company.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.

If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad

I assume from your flag you're in the UK too. Can I just point out a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding this (mainly due to said announcement lacking a certain amount of tact). From what I gather this isn't just "you can only buy pp products in b&m stores" or "They're directing people to the pp site like wot GW did!" (Which is laughable as the pp site does not sell current product. You can only get classics and exclusives wrt miniatures), they're simply saying they don't like online stores that are ONLY online stores. Places like Wayland, Dark Sphere, Firestorm et al. are as far as I understand, unaffected. So, you can keep buying as normal.

Could they have been more subtle about it? Damn straight. Could they have been clearer? Yup. I find it a weird irony, that Privateer Press, a company known for clear and concise rules put out this confusing and aggressive statement.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
What's important here is that we the community can attack each other as much and as harshly as at all possible, clearly. Nevermind anything else, this news must be taken advantage of to score points in an asinine power struggle between fandoms!

...eedjits.

Exalted!

"free riders"

Oh dear !

Disappointing to say the least.

I've noticed a pretty steep decline in my PP purchases over the last few months. This probably isn't going to help buck that trend.

Silly decisions like this are what make me enjoy the whole Kickstarter model even more. Something which Privateer just put to great use, didn't they, cutting out those game shops in the process...

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:


Silly decisions like this are what make me enjoy the whole Kickstarter model even more. Something which Privateer just put to great use, didn't they, cutting out those game shops in the process...

Do you know what grinds FLGS owner's gears even more? Kickstarter (well, specifically Mantic's ones if you ask the owner of my FLGS.).

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Hasn't been much, then, has it?

The constant tit for tat point-scoring excercise between GW and PP fans seems rather infantile to me.

UWOTM8!

My wargame company could totally beat up your wargaming company.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.

If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad

I assume from your flag you're in the UK too. Can I just point out a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding this (mainly due to said announcement lacking a certain amount of tact). From what I gather this isn't just "you can only buy pp products in b&m stores" or "They're directing people to the pp site like wot GW did!" (Which is laughable as the pp site does not sell current product. You can only get classics and exclusives wrt miniatures), they're simply saying they don't like online stores that are ONLY online stores. Places like Wayland, Dark Sphere, Firestorm et al. are as far as I understand, unaffected. So, you can keep buying as normal.

Could they have been more subtle about it? Damn straight. Could they have been clearer? Yup. I find it a weird irony, that Privateer Press, a company known for clear and concise rules put out this confusing and aggressive statement.

I mostly buy from Wayland, so that's good news. Crisis over! Thanks.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Hasn't been much, then, has it?

The constant tit for tat point-scoring excercise between GW and PP fans seems rather infantile to me.

UWOTM8!

My wargame company could totally beat up your wargaming company.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.

If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad

I assume from your flag you're in the UK too. Can I just point out a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding this (mainly due to said announcement lacking a certain amount of tact). From what I gather this isn't just "you can only buy pp products in b&m stores" or "They're directing people to the pp site like wot GW did!" (Which is laughable as the pp site does not sell current product. You can only get classics and exclusives wrt miniatures), they're simply saying they don't like online stores that are ONLY online stores. Places like Wayland, Dark Sphere, Firestorm et al. are as far as I understand, unaffected. So, you can keep buying as normal.

Could they have been more subtle about it? Damn straight. Could they have been clearer? Yup. I find it a weird irony, that Privateer Press, a company known for clear and concise rules put out this confusing and aggressive statement.

I mostly buy from Wayland, so that's good news. Crisis over! Thanks.

Someone feel free to correct me, but that is my understanding.

 Da Boss wrote:
That is the biggest problem with this sort of policy. They're defending one aspect of the industry in one setting (Game stores in the US). But in doing so, they harm customers in other settings (rural customers, and probably distributors in Europe who can't play by those rules).

I think companies often tend to gravitate toward the models they know and understand. GW often seems tonedeaf and stupid to americans because their model was developed (and works fairly well) in the UK, but doesn't transfer as well to the US where there are more game stores and crucially, cheaper rents for game stores with lots of floor space.

On the flipside, this policy of Privateer Press makes sense in the US where the FLGS is the heart of most gaming communities, but less in the UK where there is less market penetration.

I mean, in Ireland, you're talking about maybe 3 or 4 places where you can buy PP models at all.

We in the UK don't really seem to have big US style online discounters (if we do please let me know). Instead most of the online stores I know, include the ones that get recommended a lot here like Firestorm, Element and Darksphere seems, to be around 10-20% off. So it seems unlikely we'll be affected by this.

Edit: Missed Grimtuff's post.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Huh, well, this thread surprised me. I was expecting the usual "It's bad when GW does it, it's fine when PP does it" spiel. Is the fanbase finally growing up?

The fanbase has always been grown up, it's just GW "does it" far more than anyone else.

No, the fanbase has always been blind, immature and hypocritical. PP decided to be GW whilst working on Mk2 at the latest and they were defended every step of the way, from nerfing models and then giving a new model the old model's rules to make people buy a new model to get access to old abilities, to jacking up prices when switching from metal to plastic justified by "extra bits", then still doing it with kits that don't even have extra bits, to abandoning a "specialist game" without even an explanation, to censoring criticism, to ridiculing GW and their fans, then turning around and doing the exact same things (plastic is for nancy boys!)

This isn't a new direction for PP, just another stepping stone on a path they've been taking for many years. Just the first time the majority is outraged because it hits them in the wallet.

Well put.

Even assuming they did this with good intentions, wow, that was one hell of a horrible spin they made on their own announcement. Except, yeah, I don't think it represents any fundamental shift in their plans. I jumped ship due to not liking what I'd been seeing, honestly looked back a few times and the only thing I regret is more transparent tactics that were easier to follow, and a few forumites who were good and/or fun people.

Does this indicate PP is experiencing severely reduced revenue? It reads as very desperate.

As mentioned, they're basically attacking the evolution of shopping via the internet. Instead of trying to shut down discount sellers, why don't they create incentives to actually shop at an FLGS? I'm a "free rider" by their definition, because I'd rather save 25%. They, and FLGs, need to adapt to the times. Create incentive-based tournaments, offer more "services" in-store so that I can support them (and I want to!).

So dumb. My group just started getting into WMH, but this is a huge turnoff.

This is totally a good opportunity for members of the same niche market to make fun of each other and rub salt in the proverbial wounds of others - yet again, the tabletop gaming community has shown how truly wonderful it can be.

Anyone notice how quickly people went from "Screw PP!" to "Screw people who play PP games!"?

Press's business model was and is very much based around "screw GW, we are better" so yeah, people are kinda upset.

I know I am asking for it, replying to this post with so many obviously favoring discounting, but I own a brick and mortar store and I don't think you are seeing the big picture. I live on a 10% margin when I sell at MSRP, that means after I am done paying my employees, paying lights and phones, paying rent, I make 1 dollar out of every 10. When I discount below 10% I am losing money. No business can function for long doing that. Now say I manage to cut expenditures here and there (by laying off employees, cutting back on hours, etc), I can make a little more, but not double! Now many of the online discounters are discounting 15%, 20%, or more. There is no way a brick and mortar can compete. Most gamers met other gamers and built their community in and around brick and mortar. If they go (and if this trend continues, at least in terms of miniatures, they will go) where will you play? How will you grow the community with no common frame of reference (flgs)? Talk to any game store owner. 99% of them are not sitting on vast amounts of treasure! Most of them are barely making it. Half of my store is devoted to in-store play. I am a strong believer in community. But just last month I had to go through my PP miniatures and clearance sale many of them because they have not sold (turned) in over a year. I am in the process of reducing the number of PP miniatures I carry, and if I am doing it, other lfgs are as well. If that trend continues, it will effect PP and cause them to cut staff/hours/production, and if it gets bad enough they will shut down. It will take years for that to happen, but while it is happening it will effect your gaming experience. Fewer miniature releases, no more tournaments (they won't be able to give tournament support (prizes), and the biggest, lfgs will shift to selling product that is not heavily discounted. I know of 1 store in town that has dropped most of it's miniature lines and switched to selling mainly board games due to online discounters. You can't play Warmachine in their store because their tables are reserved for the games they sell. I am thinking about changing access to my tables based on a club instead of just free entry. That way, if a customer buys all of their stuff online, then they won't be using my tables (and I won't be losing sales when they get mad and leave). I know some champion of the free market is going to get on here and talk about how if I can't compete I should get out, and most of them haven't really read Adam Smith and his "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (1776)" The place where we get our concept of the" free market" and the "invisible hand". Contrary to popular belief, he was not against regulation, he thought it should be just and limited. I think PP is being just and limited. The only thing that may have been more fair would have been to set the discounting limit. Right now, online discounters have no idea how much they can cut before being added to the "blacklist" and I think it would be fair if they clarified that. If you haven't talked to the owner of your lfgs, I suggest you do, to get more of a perspective on the subject. And please understand, I am not against online sales or discounts. But discounting should be reasonable and targeted (like a sale) not deep and across the board 24/7.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Huh, well, this thread surprised me. I was expecting the usual "It's bad when GW does it, it's fine when PP does it" spiel. Is the fanbase finally growing up?

The fanbase has always been grown up, it's just GW "does it" far more than anyone else.

No, the fanbase has always been blind, immature and hypocritical.

Well you sure have convinced me that you're a mature poster yourself with that one! It's such a grown up move to insult an entire group of people with a general statement like that!

...and they were defended every step of the way...

What, you mean like how there's a bunch of people defend GW at every step of the way?

When PP does something, you get some people criticising and some people defending. When GW does something, you get some people criticising and some people defending. It's almost like a fanbase is actually made up of a whole heap of different individuals who may or may not share the same opinions, shocking I know!

A fanbase can't be hypocritical because a fanbase is not a single entity. I don't know why people act like it is so often.

When you get opinion swaying heavily one way or the other it simply means a larger portion of the fanbase finds it reprehensible or indefensible. Though it's still worth noting that even this thread isn't unanimously attacking PP... it's almost like some people have minds of their own!

To be fair the whole shops/internet shopping thing runs very deep, PP won't be the first to suffer like this (as both GW and Battlefront amongst others have done the same previously) and I'm not sure what the answer is. Although the tone of the article is very poor form, that company also obviously has it's own share of social misfits that don't know how to communicate properly.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
What's important here is that we the community can attack each other as much and as harshly as at all possible, clearly. Nevermind anything else, this news must be taken advantage of to score points in an asinine power struggle between fandoms!

...eedjits.

The saddest thing about this thread is the long-suffering GW fans hobbling out to smirk and point before doing a Nelson "Ha Ha!"

It's a fair cop, there's a contingent of PP fans that love doing that in threads about GW. It cuts both ways and is dumb all the time.

Smellingsalts wrote:
I know I am asking for it, replying to this post with so many obviously favoring discounting, but I own a brick and mortar store and I don't think you are seeing the big picture. I live on a 10% margin when I sell at MSRP, that means after I am done paying my employees, paying lights and phones, paying rent, I make 1 dollar out of every 10. When I discount below 10% I am losing money. No business can function for long doing that. Now say I manage to cut expenditures here and there (by laying off employees, cutting back on hours, etc), I can make a little more, but not double! Now many of the online discounters are discounting 15%, 20%, or more. There is no way a brick and mortar can compete. Most gamers met other gamers and built their community in and around brick and mortar. If they go (and if this trend continues, at least in terms of miniatures, they will go) where will you play? How will you grow the community with no common frame of reference (flgs)? Talk to any game store owner. 99% of them are not sitting on vast amounts of treasure! Most of them are barely making it. Half of my store is devoted to in-store play. I am a strong believer in community. But just last month I had to go through my PP miniatures and clearance sale many of them because they have not sold (turned) in over a year. I am in the process of reducing the number of PP miniatures I carry, and if I am doing it, other lfgs are as well. If that trend continues, it will effect PP and cause them to cut staff/hours/production, and if it gets bad enough they will shut down. It will take years for that to happen, but while it is happening it will effect your gaming experience. Fewer miniature releases, no more tournaments (they won't be able to give tournament support (prizes), and the biggest, lfgs will shift to selling product that is not heavily discounted. I know of 1 store in town that has dropped most of it's miniature lines and switched to selling mainly board games due to online discounters. You can't play Warmachine in their store because their tables are reserved for the games they sell. I am thinking about changing access to my tables based on a club instead of just free entry. That way, if a customer buys all of their stuff online, then they won't be using my tables (and I won't be losing sales when they get mad and leave). I know some champion of the free market is going to get on here and talk about how if I can't compete I should get out, and most of them haven't really read Adam Smith and his "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (1776)" The place where we get our concept of the" free market" and the "invisible hand". Contrary to popular belief, he was not against regulation, he thought it should be just and limited. I think PP is being just and limited. The only thing that may have been more fair would have been to set the discounting limit. Right now, online discounters have no idea how much they can cut before being added to the "blacklist" and I think it would be fair if they clarified that. If you haven't talked to the owner of your lfgs, I suggest you do, to get more of a perspective on the subject. And please understand, I am not against online sales or discounts. But discounting should be reasonable and targeted (like a sale) not deep and across the board 24/7.

Holy wall of text batman. So a few things
1: UK has kinda proved you dont need an FLGS to grow a community.
2: the best way, Iin my experiance and my opinion to make a game grow and have them buy from you? Events for the game they play, more tournaments, more game nights, more of everything, it shows you care about them more past their $$$$, the problem is that how most FLGS people see their customers, as walking wallets.

This is very disappointing. Even if it doesn't change anything practically (and I don't really see how it will) it is a stupid thing to think, and a stupider thing to say. If you want to grow your community, make it cheaper to become part of the community. Don't complain about people who sell your product for very little profit on their end. Local game stores don't sell much PP because the models are way over priced, and even at 20% off are expensive for what they are. These are not super nice models that make sense at boutique prices. Most units only have ~3 sculpts among 10 guys. The online stores selling for deep discounts are doing PP a favor, getting people into the game for less money. The game is good but has a steep learning curve, and as the many, many threads along the lines of "Starting X, what should I get?" demonstrate it is a big monetary investment that makes buying anything risky for new players. Lower prices solve at least part of the start up problem.

And for feth sake, don't misuse terms like "free rider".