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With the abundance of multiple RoF weapons (grav salvo, scats, tesla, heck even big shootas) have weapons like MLs, lascannons, sniper rifles, even the humble boltgun outside rapid fire range fallen away in usefullness or potency these days?
Considering most units have a 33-50% chance to miss, then wound and cover save rolls need to be accounted for, is it always better to take RoF weapons?

Single shot is meh at lower Str values. I think anti tank and anti GMC should be single shot still. I also think grav cannons should join the ranks of single shot weapons.

 Xerics wrote:
Single shot is meh at lower Str values. I think anti tank and anti GMC should be single shot still. I also think grav cannons should join the ranks of single shot weapons.

Sure, when they become twin-linked D-weapons.

I think they have- not only that, but the line between roles have been blurred. Multiple shot weapons were either costly, weak or on certain platforms.
Big shootas are the Ork HB, it fits and it's a heavy weapon. S5 AP4 though isn't much in 7th though when there's 2/3 salvo and such floating round.

I'd dearly love for the Heavy bolter to be a viable option again for which I blame Dawn of War- I used to max out on them until I learned what plasma and missiles actually did

The scale of the game increases, so the weapons a) get more stronger and b) get more shots so a game doesn't take forever to remove things. The flip side to this is the alpha strike armies designed to cripple an opponent through weight of high-S fire. If 40k goes into 8th, I'd like to see a rejiggering of weapon strength and shots- and maybe less relentless platforms? I don't get how a jet bike is meant to lug around an aptly named heavy weapon without some kind of penalty when tanks can't fire off all their weapons without having to make snap shots.

They've been useless for a while now, since the start of 6th, but they got worse in 7th with the changes to vehicle damage table, the increasing number of mid-high str volume of fire weapons, higher toughness monsters and AV ignoring guns. There's very little room for a Missile launcher in a world of Riptides, grav cannons and haywire.

Probably the best example of this is the tau Broadside. Compare the HRR against the HYMP and realise that even with ignores cover on demand, the HRR is still outperformed in virtually all ways by the HYMP.

 Xerics wrote:
Single shot is meh at lower Str values. I think anti tank and anti GMC should be single shot still. I also think grav cannons should join the ranks of single shot weapons.

Technically, the gravs have no strength, clearly they need higher rof to compensate.

"Useless" is obviously massive hyperbole and this kind of rhetoric doesn't really help. "Less effective" is not "useless."

It's not even true against AV14. There are very few multi-shot S8 weapons.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Single shot is meh at lower Str values. I think anti tank and anti GMC should be single shot still. I also think grav cannons should join the ranks of single shot weapons.

Sure, when they become twin-linked D-weapons.

They practically are D weapons. AP2, wound on armor save, ignore cover AND 5 shots? With 36" range? The only thing they dont do well against is light armored infantry and vehicles but even then it immobilizes vehicles when it does hit. At MOST they should have 2 shots not 5.

Alcibiades wrote:
"Useless" is obviously massive hyperbole and this kind of rhetoric doesn't really help. "Less effective" is not "useless."

It's not even true against AV14. There are very few multi-shot S8 weapons.

true but there are a ton of multi shot weapons that don't care about AV14, Grav, Haywire.

SemperMortis wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
"Useless" is obviously massive hyperbole and this kind of rhetoric doesn't really help. "Less effective" is not "useless."

It's not even true against AV14. There are very few multi-shot S8 weapons.

true but there are a ton of multi shot weapons that don't care about AV14, Grav, Haywire.

I can't think of any high ROF Haywire weapons either. Are there any?.EDIT: ah, Skitarii/AdMech arc rifles.

Grav is a special weird case that only AdMech and Marines have access to.

Now that I think of it I guess another exception is S6 high ROF weapons with Rending (avenger gatling cannon, heavy burst cannon, assault cannon).

 Xerics wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Single shot is meh at lower Str values. I think anti tank and anti GMC should be single shot still. I also think grav cannons should join the ranks of single shot weapons.

Sure, when they become twin-linked D-weapons.

They practically are D weapons. AP2, wound on armor save, ignore cover AND 5 shots?

Where are Grav weapons getting Ignores Cover from? It's not a feature present on ANY Grav weapons nor any of the units which wield them.
Devastators can subtract a point of cover from a target if they're joined by a character with an Auspex(character does it in lieu of his shooting attack) or possibly if they have it bestowed upon them by a Psyker.
Centurion Devastators are affected the same way.

With 36" range?

Which grav weapon has a 36" range?
No Grav weapons in the Marine or Cult Mechanicus arsenal for 40k have 36" range.

The closest is 30" range on the Kataphron Destroyers, who are T5 2W with a 4+ and BS3--with a special rule where they always count as stationary.

Oh yeah, and those Kataphron Destroyers cost almost as much as a Riptide for a unit of 3. Individual Kataphron Destroyers are 10 points cheaper than a Broadside.

The only thing they dont do well against is light armored infantry and vehicles but even then it immobilizes vehicles when it does hit. At MOST they should have 2 shots not 5.

Again, which gun?
There's Grav Pistols which are 1 shot, there's Grav-Guns which are Salvo 2/3(with an 18" range), and there's Grav-Cannons which are 24" with Salvo 3/5 for Marines.
Cult Mechanicus have the Heavy Grav-Cannon which is 30" Salvo 4/6 and the Torsion Cannon which is basically a "Grav Lite" weapon that is 24" S8 AP1 Heavy 1 with Gravitic Contortion.

Alcibiades wrote:
"Useless" is obviously massive hyperbole and this kind of rhetoric doesn't really help. "Less effective" is not "useless."

It's not even true against AV14. There are very few multi-shot S8 weapons.

Hmmm...just how profilic is AV14 these days? Whilst there are not many multi-shot S8 weapons, there are plenty of S8 single-shot weapons which can be spammed in considerable numbers (Combi-Meltas for example).

But yeah, single shot weapons aren't great these days. In 5th Edition, Railgun was the king. As you got +1 in damage table, it meant that even glancing hit would Immobilize on 5+ and Wreck on 6+ (4+ and 5+ if target was Open-Topped, like Ork Battlewagon). Penetrating hit would destroy the vehicle on 4+.
By contrast in 7th, a Glancing hit from Railgun does no more than Glancing Hit from Scatter Laser. It takes a Hull point, no chance for immobilization, or even Stunned/Shaken. It's worse for AP2 weapons like Demolisher Cannons and Lascannons which only Wreck on 5+. Also the mentioned prevalence of over-tough MC's against which these weapons at BEST CASE make 1 wound, nothing more (and because of saves and FNP's, often not even that).

It was big mistake when they 'fixed' vehicles by making them harder to blow up from single shot. Vehicles were not marginalized because they could blow up, they were marginalized because they were Glanced to death via Hull points. Solution should have been to give all Vehicle 1 HP more.

Oh and all big tough MC's like Wraithknight, Riptide and Dreadknight should be Walkers.

 Xerics wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Single shot is meh at lower Str values. I think anti tank and anti GMC should be single shot still. I also think grav cannons should join the ranks of single shot weapons.

Sure, when they become twin-linked D-weapons.

They practically are D weapons. AP2, wound on armor save, ignore cover AND 5 shots? With 36" range? The only thing they dont do well against is light armored infantry and vehicles but even then it immobilizes vehicles when it does hit. At MOST they should have 2 shots not 5.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that scatter lasers should be heavy 1 then too? Eldar players have no right to complain about the rate of fire on the only SM heavy weapon that's even worth taking. Also, you show how uninformed you are on the subject. Gravcannons have 24" range, not 36". They don't automatically ignore cover either.

Backfire wrote:

Oh and all big tough MC's like Wraithknight, Riptide and Dreadknight should be Walkers.

They don't need to be Walkers, but they should either be given a "Monstrous Creature Damage Table" or high Strength/ low AP weapons and those with Melta or Armourbane need to be given the following special rule:

Devastating
A weapon with this special rule inflicts 1 wound on Monstrous Creatures each time it hits, with no armor saves allowed, whether it successfully Wounds or not.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:

It was big mistake when they 'fixed' vehicles by making them harder to blow up from single shot. Vehicles were not marginalized because they could blow up, they were marginalized because they were Glanced to death via Hull points. Solution should have been to give all Vehicle 1 HP more.

Nah. Solution should have been to give vehicles a save versus hits that only Glance, and Extra Armor should have bumped up Hull Points and AV by 1 each.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Single shot is meh at lower Str values. I think anti tank and anti GMC should be single shot still. I also think grav cannons should join the ranks of single shot weapons.

Sure, when they become twin-linked D-weapons.

They practically are D weapons. AP2, wound on armor save, ignore cover AND 5 shots? With 36" range? The only thing they dont do well against is light armored infantry and vehicles but even then it immobilizes vehicles when it does hit. At MOST they should have 2 shots not 5.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that scatter lasers should be heavy 1 then too? Eldar players have no right to complain about the rate of fire on the only SM heavy weapon that's even worth taking. Also, you show how uninformed you are on the subject. Gravcannons have 24" range, not 36". They don't automatically ignore cover either.

Scatter Laser has basically no AP value and cant hurt armor 13+ (which grav can). I do think that scatter lasers should have 1 less shot then they currently have. Anything that isn't on a titan should have AT MOST 3 shots. The amount of energy to kick out that many shots would be ridiculous and for physical bullets the recoil would be pretty bad as well. But with no AP there would be no reason to take a single shot scatter laser over a star cannon that has 2 shots and 2 AP with the same STR and range.

 Xerics wrote:

Scatter Laser has basically no AP value and cant hurt armor 13+ (which grav can).

On a roll of a 6.

You have to roll a 6 for a Graviton weapon to do ANYTHING against vehicles.
You roll a D6 for each successful hit. On a 1-5, nothing happens. No hull points removed, nothing.
On a 6 the vehicle suffers an Immobilized result and loses a hull point.

I do think that scatter lasers should have 1 less shot then they currently have. Anything that isn't on a titan should have AT MOST 3 shots. The amount of energy to kick out that many shots would be ridiculous and for physical bullets the recoil would be pretty bad as well. But with no AP there would be no reason to take a single shot scatter laser over a star cannon that has 2 shots and 2 AP with the same STR and range.

Do you know why Grav weapons have so many shots? It's not because they're actually firing 3/5/6 shots. From what has been described, grav weapons generate a field that links the gun and the targets. The shots are the 'pulses' of the field strengthening the gravitic forces surrounding the target--crushing the target within its own bulk.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Scatter Laser has basically no AP value and cant hurt armor 13+ (which grav can).

On a roll of a 6.

You have to roll a 6 for a Graviton weapon to do ANYTHING against vehicles.
You roll a D6 for each successful hit. On a 1-5, nothing happens. No hull points removed, nothing.
On a 6 the vehicle suffers an Immobilized result and loses a hull point.

I do think that scatter lasers should have 1 less shot then they currently have. Anything that isn't on a titan should have AT MOST 3 shots. The amount of energy to kick out that many shots would be ridiculous and for physical bullets the recoil would be pretty bad as well. But with no AP there would be no reason to take a single shot scatter laser over a star cannon that has 2 shots and 2 AP with the same STR and range.

Do you know why Grav weapons have so many shots? It's not because they're actually firing 3/5/6 shots. From what has been described, grav weapons generate a field that links the gun and the targets. The shots are the 'pulses' of the field strengthening the gravitic forces surrounding the target--crushing the target within its own bulk.

A roll of a 6 is better than not at all. If it's the pulses than it should be a single shot that can cause up to 5 wounds, not 5 re-rollable shots from centurions with grav amps.

"Useless" is obviously massive hyperbole and this kind of rhetoric doesn't really help. "Less effective" is not "useless."

Hence the inverted commas with the word useless, i.e. you can place whatever value you like on useless - less effective is fine too.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Scatter Laser has basically no AP value and cant hurt armor 13+ (which grav can).

On a roll of a 6.

You have to roll a 6 for a Graviton weapon to do ANYTHING against vehicles.
You roll a D6 for each successful hit. On a 1-5, nothing happens. No hull points removed, nothing.
On a 6 the vehicle suffers an Immobilized result and loses a hull point.

I do think that scatter lasers should have 1 less shot then they currently have. Anything that isn't on a titan should have AT MOST 3 shots. The amount of energy to kick out that many shots would be ridiculous and for physical bullets the recoil would be pretty bad as well. But with no AP there would be no reason to take a single shot scatter laser over a star cannon that has 2 shots and 2 AP with the same STR and range.

Do you know why Grav weapons have so many shots? It's not because they're actually firing 3/5/6 shots. From what has been described, grav weapons generate a field that links the gun and the targets. The shots are the 'pulses' of the field strengthening the gravitic forces surrounding the target--crushing the target within its own bulk.

And going by the fluff my thousand sons should have a 2++, rerolling ones because the things are almost literally indestructible, shruggig off anti-tank fire like they're being hit by a soft breeze.

Luckily, the rules' writers realize they shouldn't go by the fluff. It's never a justification for bad rules.

Also, 6's to immobilize + 1 HP is infinitely better than not being able to do damar at all.

Scatterlasers are only better because of the platform it's on and the quantity you can bring in a single squad. Going purely by profile, grav is the better weapon considering the range of targets it can hurt efficiently.

 Xerics wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Scatter Laser has basically no AP value and cant hurt armor 13+ (which grav can).

On a roll of a 6.

You have to roll a 6 for a Graviton weapon to do ANYTHING against vehicles.
You roll a D6 for each successful hit. On a 1-5, nothing happens. No hull points removed, nothing.
On a 6 the vehicle suffers an Immobilized result and loses a hull point.

I do think that scatter lasers should have 1 less shot then they currently have. Anything that isn't on a titan should have AT MOST 3 shots. The amount of energy to kick out that many shots would be ridiculous and for physical bullets the recoil would be pretty bad as well. But with no AP there would be no reason to take a single shot scatter laser over a star cannon that has 2 shots and 2 AP with the same STR and range.

Do you know why Grav weapons have so many shots? It's not because they're actually firing 3/5/6 shots. From what has been described, grav weapons generate a field that links the gun and the targets. The shots are the 'pulses' of the field strengthening the gravitic forces surrounding the target--crushing the target within its own bulk.

A roll of a 6 is better than not at all.

Oh woe, there's something scatterbikes can't kill easily! What a pity!

If it's the pulses than it should be a single shot that can cause up to 5 wounds, not 5 re-rollable shots from centurions with grav amps.

Yeah...no. If it was a "single shot that can cause up to 5 wounds", then it would be considered a single shot for the purpose of saves.

Also, Grav Amps allow you to reroll failed To Wounds or vehicle hits.
If you missed--you missed.
Funny though how you immediately jump to the Centurions bit, despite normal Devastators having access to Grav-Cannons with Grav Amps as well. But I guess nobody runs Devstars against you, just Centstars.

 Kanluwen wrote:

They don't need to be Walkers, but they should either be given a "Monstrous Creature Damage Table" or high Strength/ low AP weapons and those with Melta or Armourbane need to be given the following special rule:

Devastating
A weapon with this special rule inflicts 1 wound on Monstrous Creatures each time it hits, with no armor saves allowed, whether it successfully Wounds or not.

Well if a Helbrute or a Daemon Engine are walker vehicles, then Riptides, Wraithknights and Dreadknights should be walker vehicles too.

In any case, I'd keep things simpler. Just make it so Melta and Armourbane weapons do 1D3 wounds to MCs and the like. Poor Nids won't be happy about it though. The issue here are not Monstruous Creatures themselves, but things that are MCs on the tabletop while they shouldn't be.

DaPino wrote:

And going by the fluff my thousand sons should have a 2++, rerolling ones because the things are almost literally indestructible, shruggig off anti-tank fire like they're being hit by a soft breeze.

Actually, the fluff for your Thousand Sons has never had them "shrugging off anti-tank fire like they're being hit by a soft breeze". Anti-tank weapons, fluffwise, are what Guard and the other human elements(Cultists, PDFs, etc) within the game reliably use to deal with power armored enemies.

You might be mistaking what the lore considers anti-tank weapons(Lascannons and Krak Missiles notably) with what players consider anti-tank weapons.

Luckily, the rules' writers realize they shouldn't go by the fluff. It's never a justification for bad rules.

Neither is using a unit from a poorly written book as an example. CSM suck. We know this.

Also, 6's to immobilize + 1 HP is infinitely better than not being able to do damar at all.

If you're taking Scatter Laser Bikes and ONLY Scatter Laser Bikes, you deserve to not be able to deal with armor.

Scatterlasers are only better because of the platform it's on and the quantity you can bring in a single squad. Going purely by profile, grav is the better weapon considering the range of targets it can hurt efficiently.

Tell that to a player bringing Grav against a Guard foot army. I'm sure they'd love to hear how Grav is the better weapon compared to Scatter Lasers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

They don't need to be Walkers, but they should either be given a "Monstrous Creature Damage Table" or high Strength/ low AP weapons and those with Melta or Armourbane need to be given the following special rule:

Devastating
A weapon with this special rule inflicts 1 wound on Monstrous Creatures each time it hits, with no armor saves allowed, whether it successfully Wounds or not.

Well if a Helbrute or a Daemon Engine are walker vehicles, then Riptides, Wraithknights and Dreadknights should be walker vehicles too.
Poor Nids won't be happy about it though. The issue here are not Monstruous Creatures themselves, but things that are MCs on the tabletop while they shouldn't be.

Actually yes, the issue really IS Monstrous Creatures themselves. They retain all the benefits of being infantry(barring the ability to Go To Ground) and are given good armor saves with the ability to claim cover with no real restrictions. The effect is intensified when looking at the Wraithknight, a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature which was given an absurd amount of survivability just by adding the "Gargantuan" classification to it and remaining in the same general points vicinity as its non-Gargantuan variant.

Additionally, the reason Helbrutes are walkers?
The same reason Dreadnoughts and Knights are walkers rather than MCs. They're a vessel which the pilot is operating via stimuli, hard-wired into it but still separate.
Daemon Engines are walkers for one simple reason:
There's no physical pilot operating it. Read up the lore on Daemon Engines sometimes, it's the essence of a Daemon bound within the iron.

Tyranids, in any case, need a relatively large overhaul. There's a lot of things which can be done to bolster Tyranid MCs without going Tau or Eldar levels of stupidity.

In any case, I'd keep things simpler. Just make it so Melta and Armourbane weapons do 1D3 wounds to MCs and the like.

Nope. Automatic Wound loss regardless of causing a Wound or not.
Why? Because weapons with Melta and Armourbane tend to be low ROF and high points cost.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Scatter Laser has basically no AP value and cant hurt armor 13+ (which grav can).

On a roll of a 6.

You have to roll a 6 for a Graviton weapon to do ANYTHING against vehicles.
You roll a D6 for each successful hit. On a 1-5, nothing happens. No hull points removed, nothing.
On a 6 the vehicle suffers an Immobilized result and loses a hull point.

I do think that scatter lasers should have 1 less shot then they currently have. Anything that isn't on a titan should have AT MOST 3 shots. The amount of energy to kick out that many shots would be ridiculous and for physical bullets the recoil would be pretty bad as well. But with no AP there would be no reason to take a single shot scatter laser over a star cannon that has 2 shots and 2 AP with the same STR and range.

Do you know why Grav weapons have so many shots? It's not because they're actually firing 3/5/6 shots. From what has been described, grav weapons generate a field that links the gun and the targets. The shots are the 'pulses' of the field strengthening the gravitic forces surrounding the target--crushing the target within its own bulk.

A roll of a 6 is better than not at all.

Oh woe, there's something scatterbikes can't kill easily! What a pity!

If it's the pulses than it should be a single shot that can cause up to 5 wounds, not 5 re-rollable shots from centurions with grav amps.

Yeah...no. If it was a "single shot that can cause up to 5 wounds", then it would be considered a single shot for the purpose of saves.

Also, Grav Amps allow you to reroll failed To Wounds or vehicle hits.
If you missed--you missed.
Funny though how you immediately jump to the Centurions bit, despite normal Devastators having access to Grav-Cannons with Grav Amps as well. But I guess nobody runs Devstars against you, just Centstars.

I see from your post that its not scatter lasers you are after its the fact that scatterlasers are on a jetbike and can be taken in mass. The weapon itself isnt the problem just the platform its on. The grav weapon is a problem REGARDLESS of what platform its on. Also with it being AP2 how many units actually get a save against it? If they lowered the AP on the Grav weapons I wouldn't care so much. But a high RoF with High AP and easy wounding? the weapon itself is broken regardless of the platform you put it on especially when you can drop pod guys in full of these weapons and nuke whatever it is that pleases you.

 Xerics wrote:

I see from your post that its not scatter lasers you are after its the fact that scatterlasers are on a jetbike and can be taken in mass. The weapon itself isnt the problem just the platform its on.

Actually yes. The weapon itself is the problem. Why? Because Scatter Lasers themselves are undercosted for what they are. When added to the jetbike platform, Scatter Lasers become an even bigger issue.

You don't see people complaining about Scatter Lasers on War Walkers, do you?

The grav weapon is a problem REGARDLESS of what platform its on. Also with it being AP2 how many units actually get a save against it? If they lowered the AP on the Grav weapons I wouldn't care so much. But a high RoF with High AP and easy wounding?

High ROF with high AP and wounding scaled to the armor value of a unit.

Units that have middling armor saves(4+) or low armor saves(5+ or 6+) get wounded on the appropriate number, which means the AP value might not actually come into play.

And additionally, you still get Invulnerable or Cover Saves versus the weapon.

Serious question: Have you actually read the rules for grav weapons?

the weapon itself is broken regardless of the platform you put it on especially when you can drop pod guys in full of these weapons and nuke whatever it is that pleases you.

Okay, and?

Unless you're getting killed by Devastators drop podded in with Grav-Cannons and Grav Amps(btw: 4 Devastators toting those? You're looking at 210 points for the unit before they purchase a Drop Pod or any upgrades to the Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant) or Sternguard with Combi-Gravs, the person had to buy an empty Drop Pod as a FA choice to put in a unit of Centurion Devastators or they had to ally in the BA detachment to do the same for Kataphron Destroyers.

Skyhammer at 1850 points can table players on the top of T1.

 Xerics wrote:
Skyhammer at 1850 points can table players on the top of T1.

Yeah, and Skyhammer(not to be confused with the version in Kauyon) is a broken formation which was available for a limited time and not every player is willing to use a PDF/scan.

What's your point?

Additionally: You know WHY Skyhammer is so powerful right? It's the "First the Fire, then the Blade" perks.

Grav is Overpowered. One of the things that it has needs to be lowered. Either AP, # of shots or change the way it wounds. Either that or keep it how it is and make it a special weapon that is limited to special characters and only 1 per army, especially since they are supposed to be an ancient tech and very rare yet a space marine player can spam them.

Scatterlasers are just as broken as grav in practice. I'd even say the scatterlaser is superior to the grav gun.

And yes, single shot non-D weapons might as well not exist. You'll never kill that mc in time with them, so why bother?

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers are just as broken as grav in practice. I'd even say the scatterlaser is superior to the grav gun.

And yes, single shot non-D weapons might as well not exist. You'll never kill that mc in time with them, so why bother?

Scatter lasers themselves are fine. Its the being able to spam them that isnt. They have no AP value, cant hurt AV 13+ and has less shots than a grav cannon. The Grav cannon kills whatever it wounds unless you have INV or FNP, wounds based on armor save (and if we want to get into fluff like the previous guy did with his "pulses" Eldar armor is lighter than space marine armor but provides better protection so that more mass = easier wounds is a load of poop),and can hurt ALL vehicles in addition to immobilizing them.

No, they're not fine. They are mathematically superior to other heavy weapons for the way gw has demanded we play tbis game. The cover system already made them too good, as they essentially ignore that system. The hull point system made them outrageous. I'm sorry if you can't see it, but i've been on the receiving end for three editions now.

It's so trivial to first strike a unit like grav bikers with scatterlasers. If grav cannons didn't frequently come on invis units, they woulf also be easier to deal with than scatterlasers.