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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


With the USA being a first world democracy, I thought they would have something similar, which was why I expressed surprise at it being lower in the USA.

You'd also expect they'd have incarnation rates on part with other countries, no death penalty, maternity leave, guaranteed time off, sick leave, public health care, or any number of things. If in general you're surprised when you hear about something think "I thought we didn't do that anymore" and it turns the story is from the US, then just understand that the answer to your question is "Yes. The US still does that and a lot of them are really proud of it".

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There you go. NRA advice is to store the guns and ammo inaccessibly to children and unauthorised persons (i.e. locked up.)

This guy obviously failed to follow the proper advice.

Yep. And now he's going to jail.

Sad, but that's why you should lock your gak up. Whether the other 2 adults there are also culpable is irrelevant. Whether they also stand trial for neglect, manslaughter, being d-bags is irrelevant. It was his gun, and an 11 year old kid was able to get his hands on it.

Edit: with whom are you arguing? or are you? I came into this late.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There you go. NRA advice is to store the guns and ammo inaccessibly to children and unauthorised persons (i.e. locked up.)

This guy obviously failed to follow the proper advice.

And he is convicted of manslaughter and a felony firearm violation.

What is your point? Did anyone try to claim he did properly store his firearm? I may have missed the post where that happened.

My point is that since there aren't any official regulations concerning safe gun storage he should have followed the NRA's advice.

I don't think anyone has claimed that it is a good thing to leave a loaded gun lying around just anyone including children can pck it up.

 Chongara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


With the USA being a first world democracy, I thought they would have something similar, which was why I expressed surprise at it being lower in the USA.

You'd also expect they'd have incarnation rates on part with other countries, no death penalty, maternity leave, guaranteed time off, sick leave, public health care, or any number of things. If in general you're surprised when you hear about something think "I thought we didn't do that anymore" and it turns the story is from the US, then just understand that the answer to your question is "Yes. The US still does that and a lot of them are really proud of it".

Americans don't get sick leave, paid holidays or maternity leave?

Bloody hell!

 Kilkrazy wrote:
My point is that since there aren't any official regulations concerning safe gun storage he should have followed the NRA's advice.

I don't think anyone has claimed that it is a good thing to leave a loaded gun lying around just anyone including children can pck it up.

He should have followed common sense, regardless of laws/regulations/NRA advice. Of course it is also disingenuous to claim he left a loaded gun lying around. From what I gather he had it in a closet. From that article, it is unclear as to whether maybe it was 'hidden' or if the closet was locked and the kid new how to open it, if the kid was disobeying his father by going into the fathers bedroom/closet (I had to put a deadbolt on my bedroom door at one point because my oldest sone decided stealing from my wife and I was acceptable behavior). Heck, we don't even know for sure it was loaded or if the kid loaded it. We assume it was loaded, but unless there is more info than the article in the OP, we are not sure.

Clearly there was enough evidence he was negligent or the verdict would not have been decided the way it was. But even storing it in a closet is a bit different than leaving 'a loaded gun lying around'.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Americans don't get sick leave, paid holidays or maternity leave?

Bloody hell!

People with hourly jobs don't get paid holidays, but they do get double overtime (generally) if they work during the holiday. As a salaried person, I've gotten holiday pay for the last 20 years. Stay in school, kids.

Paternity/Maternity leave is certainly paid here, but what you get varies by state and by company. Some companies, like mine, go above and beyond the required minimums.

We also do get sick days. If you exceed your sick day allotment, you can get more time off if you need it, but it will be unpaid.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Americans don't get sick leave, paid holidays or maternity leave?

Bloody hell!

It's up to the company in most cases. For example, at my work I get 2 hours sick time per month. I can build that up month after month but any time off I take beyond that is unpaid (so I can effectively only take a paid day off due to sickness once every 4 months). I get 60 hours a year vacation/holiday time to use as I see fit. A lot of people in similar positions to me at other companies get a lot less, if any. The only holidays I get off are Thanksgiving and Christmas, anything else (like Independence Day) is time and a half.

I think I get 5 sick days a year. I spent 3 from having the flu a few years ago. I was pissed as I had taken the flu vaccine that year, but we're getting off topic, I guess.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


With the USA being a first world democracy, I thought they would have something similar, which was why I expressed surprise at it being lower in the USA.

You'd also expect they'd have incarnation rates on part with other countries, no death penalty, maternity leave, guaranteed time off, sick leave, public health care, or any number of things. If in general you're surprised when you hear about something think "I thought we didn't do that anymore" and it turns the story is from the US, then just understand that the answer to your question is "Yes. The US still does that and a lot of them are really proud of it".

Americans don't get sick leave, paid holidays or maternity leave?

Bloody hell!

Well, it's not a constitutional right, but most salaried jobs have paid sick/holiday leave. Paid maternity leave is common as well, but varies wildly and is generally lower than most EU nations (something many politicans rail about).

But if you're flipping burgers at mcdonalds for 20 hours a week, yeah. You probably don't get a lot of paid time off.

 kronk wrote:

We have this thing called Due Process in the US. If the police want to come into my home, they certainly can IF they have a search warrant or have established probable cause.

So checking on the conditions where firearms are stored is a criminal matter so they aren't checked at all? The US mindset is a very strange place.

When I had firearms the police checked where they would be stored as part of the whole process of applying for a license. This can only be a good thing, of course gun safety and the US go together like oil and water.

Maybe the NRA could do a subscription scheme so members would get a guy coming round their house to set up their gun safe.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 kronk wrote:

We have this thing called Due Process in the US. If the police want to come into my home, they certainly can IF they have a search warrant or have established probable cause.

So checking on the conditions where firearms are stored is a criminal matter so they aren't checked at all? The US mindset is a very strange place.

When I had firearms the police checked where they would be stored as part of the whole process of applying for a license. This can only be a good thing, of course gun safety and the US go together like oil and water.

Yeah, well we Americans want the government digging into our private lives as little as possible. Just one of the things that make us different.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Maybe the NRA could do a subscription scheme so members would get a guy coming round their house to set up their gun safe.

Or maybe the multitude of training programs they offer, not just to members, is already available and can be taken advantage of.

Why do you insist on trying to tie the NRA to cases like this? Anything in the article tie the negligent gun owner to the NRA? Do you somehow see the NRA as responsible for the actions of every individual gun owner (they are not, nor should they be.)

Is the idea of personal responsibility too hard to grasp? The guy in the article failed and has been convicted. What are you looking for here?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The 11-year-old initially faced manslaughter and felony firearm charges in connection with the death,

Don't you guys have laws in the USA that says that children don't get charged for this sort of thing, because they're minors and thus not legally responsible for their actions with regards to crime.

Seems totally different to how we handle this sort of thing in Britain and Europe...

Yeah, in the Netherlands kids under 12 are not even legally capable of committing crimes.
For some reason there has yet to be an enterprising 11yo who takes advantage of this to become the biggest crime lord in Dutch history

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
This can only be a good thing, of course gun safety and the US go together like oil and water.

That is just an asinine statement. There are literally hundreds of millions of firearms owned by millions of private owners which NEVER are involved in a negligent act. Clearly SOME gun safety is being adhered to by the very vast majority of gun owners in the US.

 djones520 wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 kronk wrote:

We have this thing called Due Process in the US. If the police want to come into my home, they certainly can IF they have a search warrant or have established probable cause.

So checking on the conditions where firearms are stored is a criminal matter so they aren't checked at all? The US mindset is a very strange place.

When I had firearms the police checked where they would be stored as part of the whole process of applying for a license. This can only be a good thing, of course gun safety and the US go together like oil and water.

Yeah, well we Americans want the government digging into our private lives as little as possible. Just one of the things that make us different.

Don't speak for me. As an American I think that gun owners should be inspected to make sure that they are not fethheads leaving their guns laying around for children to play with.

 CptJake wrote:

That is just an asinine statement.

No its not. All firearms should be safely secured because if they aren't events like the one that started this thread will occur far more frequently. There really is no way to argue against that.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 kronk wrote:

We have this thing called Due Process in the US. If the police want to come into my home, they certainly can IF they have a search warrant or have established probable cause.

So checking on the conditions where firearms are stored is a criminal matter so they aren't checked at all? The US mindset is a very strange place.

When I had firearms the police checked where they would be stored as part of the whole process of applying for a license. This can only be a good thing, of course gun safety and the US go together like oil and water.

Yeah, well we Americans want the government digging into our private lives as little as possible. Just one of the things that make us different.

Don't speak for me. As an American I think that gun owners should be inspected to make sure that they are not fethheads leaving their guns laying around for children to play with.

Just out of curiosity, are you a gun owner?

If not, his statement probably still holds true, you are not for the gov't invading your privacy, just the privacy of those you don't like.

Frankly, that is an abhorrent philosophy to me.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


With the USA being a first world democracy, I thought they would have something similar, which was why I expressed surprise at it being lower in the USA.

You'd also expect they'd have incarnation rates on part with other countries, no death penalty, maternity leave, guaranteed time off, sick leave, public health care, or any number of things. If in general you're surprised when you hear about something think "I thought we didn't do that anymore" and it turns the story is from the US, then just understand that the answer to your question is "Yes. The US still does that and a lot of them are really proud of it".

Americans don't get sick leave, paid holidays or maternity leave?

Bloody hell!

The short answer is "Sometimes". I was painting with a broad brush for dramatic effect but none of those things are federally mandated. Some states may set laws about them but not all, generally the more conservative the state runs the fewer of those things you'll see. Even where they aren't mandated, many employers will offer them to stay competitive in the workplace especially for jobs that requires skills or education.

There certainly are places you could be in the US and have none of those things be mandated, and non voluntarily provided by employer.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

That is just an asinine statement.

No its not. All firearms should be safely secured because if they aren't events like the one that started this thread will occur far more frequently. There really is no way to argue against that.

Again, it is asinine, because facts show your are very wrong. Again, the VAST majority of gun owners and guns are not ever involved in a negligent incident. Clearly the oil and water analogy is faulty. There really is no way to argue against that.

When the NRA, one of the advocates of guns owners has many gun safety programs, there are tons of state and county sponsored gun and hunting safety programs, and every new gun sold comes with a lock, you cannot make your case that gun safety to Americans is like oil to water.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Don't speak for me. As an American I think that gun owners should be inspected to make sure that they are not fethheads leaving their guns laying around for children to play with.

Perhaps we can make sure there's an officer to do the rounds every night to make sure we didn't leave the stove on or make sure we're keeping our household chemicals and medications in a safe place too, or to make sure our cutlery drawers are securely fastened and our electrical outlets suitably plugged. Pool owners should also be checked frequently to make sure it's covered so nobody drowns, and anyone with access to waterfront should be checked to make sure they have a fence in place lest a child wanders in and gets swept away. Don't forget the parking break inspector, we wouldn't want a vehicle to roll over an unattended baby.

Or we could just stop trying to police everyone's private life and treat people like they're capable adults until proven otherwise.

 CptJake wrote:
There really is no way to argue against that.

Except for the tiny little fact that the US has one of the highest rates of accidental firearms related deaths in the world.

 CptJake wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 kronk wrote:

We have this thing called Due Process in the US. If the police want to come into my home, they certainly can IF they have a search warrant or have established probable cause.

So checking on the conditions where firearms are stored is a criminal matter so they aren't checked at all? The US mindset is a very strange place.

When I had firearms the police checked where they would be stored as part of the whole process of applying for a license. This can only be a good thing, of course gun safety and the US go together like oil and water.

Yeah, well we Americans want the government digging into our private lives as little as possible. Just one of the things that make us different.

Don't speak for me. As an American I think that gun owners should be inspected to make sure that they are not fethheads leaving their guns laying around for children to play with.

Just out of curiosity, are you a gun owner?

If not, his statement probably still holds true, you are not for the gov't invading your privacy, just the privacy of those you don't like.

Frankly, that is an abhorrent philosophy to me.

Maybe not, but maybe he'd be fine with the police coming in to ensure his medicine cabinet is locked, that his pool (if he has one) is secure, that all of his electrical sockets have covers on them, or all of his knives are in out of the way places.

Surely he's not saying that if one dangerous thing should have the police invading homes to ensure they are safe, then none of the other myriad of dangerous things in houses that cause accidental child death shouldn't have the same requirement.

 djones520 wrote:

Surely he's not saying that if one dangerous thing should have the police invading homes to ensure they are safe,

Of course your home is safe, if they are invading it you can shoot them.....

I genuinely have no idea why having a mandatory physical check of your gun storage arrangements is in someway equating to some kind of totalitarian state.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
There really is no way to argue against that.

Except for the tiny little fact that the US has one of the highest rates of accidental firearms related deaths in the world.

2010 saw 606 people nation wide die from accidental discharge. Rheumatoid Arthritis killed nearly 3 times as many people. Obviously it's a huge problem...

I got into many arguments on the topic of gun control so I will try to keep it sane.

I figure if the gun is for "sport" and all that entails I would be a supporter of a trigger lock, separate ammo storage and some kind of lockable case for the firearm.
Keys would be on my key-ring which I typically keep on me since I am always paranoid of getting locked out of the house.

It gets much more difficult for those who believe in gun availability for security.
Like with computer security: "Anything completely secure is unusable.".
The only argument I saw that would safeguard against "unauthorized use" and "availability" is holstering the weapon and keeping it on you.
Not my thing and some companies may frown on bringing your firearm to work.

In the end, a sad tragedy.

We may have to off-set these discussions with stories of how guns in our homes saved our lives.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

That is just an asinine statement.

No its not. All firearms should be safely secured because if they aren't events like the one that started this thread will occur far more frequently. There really is no way to argue against that.

An estimated 40% of households have at least 1 gun in them (some factoid I saw recently but can't be bothered to go research).

Are there 100 million accidental gun cases a year? No? OK then.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

This can only be a good thing, of course gun safety and the US go together like oil and water.

Nice insult, sir.

I guess Nanny-State and the UK are synonymous terms?

Does the state also make sure you're eating a balanced meal, brush your teeth after each meal, and tuck you in at night?

 CptJake wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 kronk wrote:

We have this thing called Due Process in the US. If the police want to come into my home, they certainly can IF they have a search warrant or have established probable cause.

So checking on the conditions where firearms are stored is a criminal matter so they aren't checked at all? The US mindset is a very strange place.

When I had firearms the police checked where they would be stored as part of the whole process of applying for a license. This can only be a good thing, of course gun safety and the US go together like oil and water.

Yeah, well we Americans want the government digging into our private lives as little as possible. Just one of the things that make us different.

Don't speak for me. As an American I think that gun owners should be inspected to make sure that they are not fethheads leaving their guns laying around for children to play with.

Just out of curiosity, are you a gun owner?

If not, his statement probably still holds true, you are not for the gov't invading your privacy, just the privacy of those you don't like.

Frankly, that is an abhorrent philosophy to me.

I am a gun owner. I still agree that they should be inspected for safety.

 djones520 wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 kronk wrote:

We have this thing called Due Process in the US. If the police want to come into my home, they certainly can IF they have a search warrant or have established probable cause.

So checking on the conditions where firearms are stored is a criminal matter so they aren't checked at all? The US mindset is a very strange place.

When I had firearms the police checked where they would be stored as part of the whole process of applying for a license. This can only be a good thing, of course gun safety and the US go together like oil and water.

Yeah, well we Americans want the government digging into our private lives as little as possible. Just one of the things that make us different.

Don't speak for me. As an American I think that gun owners should be inspected to make sure that they are not fethheads leaving their guns laying around for children to play with.

Just out of curiosity, are you a gun owner?

If not, his statement probably still holds true, you are not for the gov't invading your privacy, just the privacy of those you don't like.

Frankly, that is an abhorrent philosophy to me.

Maybe not, but maybe he'd be fine with the police coming in to ensure his medicine cabinet is locked, that his pool (if he has one) is secure, that all of his electrical sockets have covers on them, or all of his knives are in out of the way places.

Surely he's not saying that if one dangerous thing should have the police invading homes to ensure they are safe, then none of the other myriad of dangerous things in houses that cause accidental child death shouldn't have the same requirement.

What you described happens in the US when adopting a child. I believe it is referred to as childproofing a home, which I am fine with.

Soooo, what?

 Guildenstern wrote:
normally don't post in these things but I do have a serious question. I realize they most likely can't release the 3 yo's identity and I'm the first, as a mother of three boys, to understand that sometimes your kids are just seriously good at escaping your care... but really, where were this child's parents? This is what is really most upsetting to me. Yes, guns can be bad and kids playing with guns as we've seen time and again, is horrible. But knowing how the 3 yo was left unsupervised, that's important.

Talking about unsupervised, I dislike the way the father is reported in the above. It implies he should not have been at work. How else do you provide for your child? Maybe the other two adults were supposed to be watching the 11 yo. Who knows.

I just really really dislike the way our media tends to 'report' the news. Sigh. This is only one example.

I assume the other two adults were the three year old's parents or babysitters. They could have been watching the children play at a non-helicopter-parent distance and been totally responsible. Three year olds love playing "beep beep" in cars, pushing buttons and pulling levers. If the adults had no idea about the gun, they just would have been watching to make sure the 11 year old wasn't doing anything overtly harmful, and their first clue something was wrong might have been the loud bang.

It sounds like the 11 year old planned out this attack in such a way that even responsible adults wouldn't have been able to prevent it. Who expects an 11 year old to conceal a gun and bring it to the play area?