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Even before becoming a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch I'd put Magnus at the top above other characters and greater daemons of Tzeentch. I imagine his 10 millenia of swimming in the warp as a Daemon Prince offered him plenty of time to master all kinds of new and powerful ways to manipulate warp energies.

it was stated that after the emp, malcador was the most powerful, but I'm not sure if they included magnus in that conversation, but id say magnus, mal, eldrad the rest

Does the Tyranids count? Hive Mind and all, they should be among the strongest, if not stronger than Emprah

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Tzeentch himself doesn't count as he is a god.

Why do powers don't count ? This is like excluding students from the criteria of being an alcoholic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Even before becoming a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch I'd put Magnus at the top above other characters and greater daemons of Tzeentch. I imagine his 10 millenia of swimming in the warp as a Daemon Prince offered him plenty of time to master all kinds of new and powerful ways to manipulate warp energies.

Now imagine being Tzeentch themselve who has been there since before the beginning of time.

I too avoided including the gods. Tzeentch would oytpsyke Magnus. Tzeentch hasn't existed since time immemorial nor can the same be said of the other 4. There's still some races on table top that predate those warp entities. During the War in Heaven between Necrons and Old Ones the Old Ones created sentient psychic races like Eldar and Krork amongst others. It was the emotions of these first races that manifested in the warp which ultimately brought the Old Ones down as their happy dimension became corrupted and twisted.

Level 1: Emperor + Tzeentch (possibly magnus as well?)
Level 2: Magnus (if not higher), Malcador, eldrad, Lorgar (ascended)
Level 3: Other psychic primarchs, Stronger Farseers, Daemons of Tzeentch (lords of change higher?), the UM librarian character, the Red Scorpions character
Level 4: Librarians, warlocks, similar levels
Level 5: sanctioned psykers, etc.
Level 6: the dudes who are eaten by the emperor, etc.

Jatti wrote:Does the Tyranids count? Hive Mind and all, they should be among the strongest, if not stronger than Emprah

The strongest Psyker in 40k (excluding the Emperor) is either Magnus the Red, Eldrad Ulthran, or Malcador the Sigillite. Malcador was the most powerful mortal Psyker (likely Alpha+, seeing as how mortal Psykers came from hundreds of thousands of planets at the time, and thus would have had a huge pool to draw powerful Psykers from), Magnus was powerful enough to sit on the Golden Throne without dying (I believe that this is how Tzeentch corrupts him, by making him think the Emprah was going to use him as a talking battery for the Golden Throne), and Eldrad Ulthran is a 10k+ year-old Eldar Psyker who is likely Alpha+, as well. Of all of these, it would seem that Eldrad Ulthran is the most powerful, due to his sheer experience - 10k years is a lot of time to practice. If we're including Magnus post-Ascension, then Daemon Prince Magnus is the most powerful.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, I almost forgot to mention: Tyranids are basically just mindless Daemons made up of biomass instead of Warp matter. Very few of them even have minds at all, and those that do are inconsequential (ie genestealers) in terms of Psychic potential when compared to such figures as Magnus the Red and Eldrad Ulthran.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
There was a quote in what I believe was the 3rd ed Eldar codex where an Eldar, presumably talking to a human, referred to how Eldrad tried to warn "That weakling seer you call Emperor" about the Horus Heresy. That may be what they're referring to.

Maybe. I guess we'll find out when they post again.

Back on Point:

That weakling seer you call Emperor

That quote may simply have been an insult. Furthermore, the use of the word weakling may not necessarily refer to The Emperor's psykic powers, but more so to do with something else. But without further information, I can't say that my evaluation of that quote is any less accurate than DarknessEternal's.

Nevertheless, it feels counter-intuitive to say that a vast majority of the Farseers are more powerful than The Emperor. One may be on par, if not more powerful, but that would be a very lonely case.

I feel like that is a jab at his abilities as a seer. I think we all know that the Emperor himself said that one cannot be all seeing and all powerful at the same time. I think judging on his power.. He picked the latter. The Eldar probably value foresight more than raw power because the more juice you use the bigger your potential problems get, especially when you have a god who (maybe literally) has a hard on for your soul.

Personally I'd have to put it as follows;
Magnus
Malcador
Eldrad, Daemon princes / greater daemons
Lorgar (Ascended)

excluding the Big E and the 3 (maybe 4 but khorne hardly counts) chaos gods probably Malal or Cegorach (though malal is a chaos god himself) Cegorach might give the Big E a run for his money though. Magnus deserves a spot on the list too above malchador, but I think there is a lot of human bias here that eldrad and the strongest elder farseers are probably torso and shoulders above almost any existing human psycher.

particularly strong ork wierdboys would probably thanks to their raw psychic presence also be in the running and if they actually had the favor of mork and gork could be used to channel some serious damage assuming they didn't get bored and distracted by something shiny or wanted to go in hand to hand and have some fun.

greater demons/ even regular demons to an extent would also be far above most if not all human psychers. being immortal and entities of the warp possibly having gathered knowledge for longer than the human race has existed

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Tzeentch himself doesn't count as he is a god.

Why do powers don't count ? This is like excluding students from the criteria of being an alcoholic.

Because he is a fething god. Gods don't play by the same rules mortals do. It is like you would include the world champion of chess into a chess competition for kids. Tzeentch is far more powerful than the Emperor and all mortal psykers in the galaxy combined. And besides that, the way the Chaos Gods and their powers work is different from how psychic powers work. In effect, Tzeentch is not a psyker, just as much as that Tyranids aren't psykers.

Tzeentch is the God of sorcery. Much in the same way Zeus was the god of the sky, and anything to do with flying was his property and jurisdiction, and Poseidon had total authority over all the oceans and ocean-based things, so Tzeentch rules over authority.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Tzeentch himself doesn't count as he is a god.

Why do powers don't count ? This is like excluding students from the criteria of being an alcoholic.

Because he is a fething god. Gods don't play by the same rules mortals do. It is like you would include the world champion of chess into a chess competition for kids. Tzeentch is far more powerful than the Emperor and all mortal psykers in the galaxy combined. And besides that, the way the Chaos Gods and their powers work is different from how psychic powers work. In effect, Tzeentch is not a psyker, just as much as that Tyranids aren't psykers.

Is there really a fundamental difference between powers and mortals, or are the so called god just more powerful beings ?

I always like to imagine the Chaos gods as similar beings to the Hyperion AI's

They are fundamentally different and don't obey the laws of physics as our reality knows it. They are made up of the energies swirling in a dimension that doesn't obey the laws of physics as our reality knows it. They are manifestationstill of the emotions, thoughts, ambitions and urges of the trillions upon trillions of psykic races ever since the first warp sensitive race was created by the old ones many eons ago. There's no real way to compare them.

The emperor is actually many psychers reincarnated into one body.
Wasnt it all the shamans and witch doctors of earth in prehistorical times or something?

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
The emperor is actually many psychers reincarnated into one body.
Wasnt it all the shamans and witch doctors of earth in prehistorical times or something?

Well with all the HH novels happening, we still don't know if that's still a thing, considering they haven't really been mentioning it anywhere for a long while now. And some hints (like what happened on Moloch, the Perpetual thing, etc) points at a different origin for Big Daddy E

 ProwlerPC wrote:
They are fundamentally different and don't obey the laws of physics as our reality knows it. They are made up of the energies swirling in a dimension that doesn't obey the laws of physics as our reality knows it. They are manifestationstill of the emotions, thoughts, ambitions and urges of the trillions upon trillions of psykic races ever since the first warp sensitive race was created by the old ones many eons ago. There's no real way to compare them.

And how is this different from lesser daemons ?

 Robin5t wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Well, the Emperor was only as powerful as a low-powered Farseer, so a lot of them.

and your source for that is?

Not trying to sound like a gakker, but I don't think (s)he has one.


@JustALittleOrkish - I'm not 100% I'd agree with putting a Daemon Prince of Tzeench so far ahead of Magnus pre-Heresy, but they are definitely more powerful. I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to think that Magnus' psykic potential pre-Heresy would match that of the least powerful Daemon Princes of Tzeench.

There was a quote in what I believe was the 3rd ed Eldar codex where an Eldar, presumably talking to a human, referred to how Eldrad tried to warn "That weakling seer you call Emperor" about the Horus Heresy. That may be what they're referring to.

eldar gak talking isn't a valid source

BrianDavion wrote:
eldar gak talking isn't a valid source

haha yep. That's very true. We're just guessing that this quote from an Eldar is his source since DarknessEternal is apparently incapable of citing their source (assuming they have one).

 oldzoggy wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
They are fundamentally different and don't obey the laws of physics as our reality knows it. They are made up of the energies swirling in a dimension that doesn't obey the laws of physics as our reality knows it. They are manifestationstill of the emotions, thoughts, ambitions and urges of the trillions upon trillions of psykic races ever since the first warp sensitive race was created by the old ones many eons ago. There's no real way to compare them.

And how is this different from lesser daemons ?

The short answer is that it's not.

And @ProwlerPC: I think, on a fundamental level of raw capabilities, I think that they can be compared. It's just more difficult of the abilities and/or traits they possess aren't themselves comparable.

eldrad has gota be the most powerful? right?

eosgreen wrote:
eldrad has gota be the most powerful? right?

I think Eldrad is the most competent, but not the most powerful.

Grimdark wrote:

eosgreen wrote:
eldrad has gota be the most powerful? right?

I think Eldrad is the most competent, but not the most powerful.

fair point perhaps (though I think it is not accurate given the connection to the warp elder have thanks to the old ones manipulation), but assuming your premise is correct what is more impressive a muscle bound 240 lb 6'2 22 year old dude breaking 3 pine boards, or a 5' 5 125 70 year old doing he same. or how about a F350 pulling a load getting 5 mpg, and a Corolla pulling the same load getting 30 mpg.

I vote Varro Tigurius. Or Mephistion. But that's just me.

 SixT4Pixels wrote:
My gaming group somehow got into a debate about who the strongest psyker was in the 40k universe, whether dead or alive.

A couple theories thrown around were Ezekiel, Draigo, I think someone said Sanguinius too.

Anyway, Dakka, who IS the strongest psyker, dead or alive, excluding the Emprah? (He is a psyker right? )

I think no one can say Tzeentch is not the strongest psyker
God of "Just as planned" kekekekekeke

But seriously, if exclude any "God" Level entities like the Emperor or Tzeentch or the Chaos Gods or the Hive Mind I think it would either vote for Magnus or Malcador. I think they deserve to be Mastery Level 5 or even 6 on Table top.

What are Mephistion's psyker feats? All I've read about him is how great a fighter he is and how powerful his will is but nothing distinctly arcane or psychically skillful.

I'd certainly agree that Eldrad and Farseers aren't the most powerful psykers around, possibly the biggest reason for this is that they have to hold back. A Farseer can never access their full potential, they have runic protection layers that limit the amount of warp energy they can call upon because to draw. Eldrad's soul simply couldn't handle the same amount of psychic power a Primarch could because when he uses that much power he attracts every Daemon to claw at his defences, defences he'd himself strip away to try access this power, he'd be ripped to shreds.

I remember an old piece of fluff about Chaos Eldar, the few survivors of the fall that stayed within the eye of terror. They became some of the most powerful servants of Chaos, able to draw upon their full psychic potential without fear of Daemonic interference because they became one with the warp. The fluff has barely been mentioned since, but I'd imagine a Chaos Eldar would be a league above a Farseer in the same way as Sorcerers are a league above Librarians.

Gork and Mork or Mork and Gork.
They dont worry about the squishy toe jam humies.
Oi Oi Oi Oi

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
What are Mephistion's psyker feats? All I've read about him is how great a fighter he is and how powerful his will is but nothing distinctly arcane or psychically skillful.

I'd certainly agree that Eldrad and Farseers aren't the most powerful psykers around, possibly the biggest reason for this is that they have to hold back. A Farseer can never access their full potential, they have runic protection layers that limit the amount of warp energy they can call upon because to draw. Eldrad's soul simply couldn't handle the same amount of psychic power a Primarch could because when he uses that much power he attracts every Daemon to claw at his defences, defences he'd himself strip away to try access this power, he'd be ripped to shreds.

I remember an old piece of fluff about Chaos Eldar, the few survivors of the fall that stayed within the eye of terror. They became some of the most powerful servants of Chaos, able to draw upon their full psychic potential without fear of Daemonic interference because they became one with the warp. The fluff has barely been mentioned since, but I'd imagine a Chaos Eldar would be a league above a Farseer in the same way as Sorcerers are a league above Librarians.

You could apply that to White Seers, too. Eldar seers who are utterly immune to Chaos don't really have to worry about how much power they throw around.

 Robin5t wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
What are Mephistion's psyker feats? All I've read about him is how great a fighter he is and how powerful his will is but nothing distinctly arcane or psychically skillful.

I'd certainly agree that Eldrad and Farseers aren't the most powerful psykers around, possibly the biggest reason for this is that they have to hold back. A Farseer can never access their full potential, they have runic protection layers that limit the amount of warp energy they can call upon because to draw. Eldrad's soul simply couldn't handle the same amount of psychic power a Primarch could because when he uses that much power he attracts every Daemon to claw at his defences, defences he'd himself strip away to try access this power, he'd be ripped to shreds.

I remember an old piece of fluff about Chaos Eldar, the few survivors of the fall that stayed within the eye of terror. They became some of the most powerful servants of Chaos, able to draw upon their full psychic potential without fear of Daemonic interference because they became one with the warp. The fluff has barely been mentioned since, but I'd imagine a Chaos Eldar would be a league above a Farseer in the same way as Sorcerers are a league above Librarians.

You could apply that to White Seers, too. Eldar seers who are utterly immune to Chaos don't really have to worry about how much power they throw around.

Emperor on a bike. Those pesky Eldar can do anything. Sigh.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Grimdark wrote:

eosgreen wrote:
eldrad has gota be the most powerful? right?

I think Eldrad is the most competent, but not the most powerful.

fair point perhaps (though I think it is not accurate given the connection to the warp elder have thanks to the old ones manipulation), but assuming your premise is correct what is more impressive a muscle bound 240 lb 6'2 22 year old dude breaking 3 pine boards, or a 5' 5 125 70 year old doing he same. or how about a F350 pulling a load getting 5 mpg, and a Corolla pulling the same load getting 30 mpg.

We're going for 'stronger'.

Others already covered why Eldrad shouldn't be the strongest.
Fair fight, 1vs1, Eldrad doesn't cut it against many of the guys running for the title.

But that's not the Farseer's job description, and Eldrad is in charge of assuring that space elves win. Showing off isn't part of the job.

About Mephiston I don't know if he's a BAMF because psyker or because he overcame the black rage. If I remember correctly he was a normal member of the librarius before the accident that made him Mephiston.

of Mortals (so not including primarchs the emperor, the chaos gods etc) Arhiman proably is up there. as a chaos sorc he's not gonna be limiting himself the way well just about every other named psyker out there we know of.

Me.

End of.