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 Vankraken wrote:

Franarok wrote:
in any case we will not see a new codex for a year or so....so dream is free.
That damn books of crimsom and black legion doomed us, because GW will no release a new codex that invalids them.

I cant understant GW. I mean, they MUST know chaos is weak and SM are strong.....why gave to the strong codex an op update and to the weak codex a ***** update?


Meanwhile we can play with non competitive friends or use a different army for competitive meta or tournaments. Of course win doesnt means everything....but cant do nothing and feel owned is not fun.

If your second army is also weak (on my case, my armies are chaos marines and orks haha) then you can pray xDDD

GW has no accountability for their rules writers and lately (past few years) they have been phoning it in unless its something that interests them. If the modeling department put out a Sister of Battle Dialogus quality sculpt nowadays then somebody would be out of a job but the rules writers can make terrible rules for things like the Gorkanaut, the Necron Start Collecting Box, Wraithknight, the Ghazzcurion, the entire CSM and Tyranid Codex, etc and its no big deal (at least to our knowledge). Consolation prize in all of this is that I am able to infer with a degree of certainty that somebody on the rules team had a really bad experience with a Killa Kan some point which is why they went out of their way to nerf the poor things into the ground.

The entire early 7th 'dex range was someone who was just SUPER salty about everything that was strong in fifth.

What got huge, unnecessary nerfs in early 7th?

-Dark Eldar (remember venomspam with haywytches, and beast packs with the baron?)
-Grey Knights (Entire inquisition stuff removed from codex)
-Ork Kan wall
-IG leafblower
-SW "waaaah they're marines +1 waaaaaaaaah" Grey Hunters and Long Fangs
-BA "Waaaaaaaaaah they're marines +1 waaaaaaah y i get no chapter tactics to reflect my fluffy green blue and black muhrines???"

Basically, all of the first half of 7th was written by a salty marine fanboy.

Crispy78 wrote:

Franarok wrote:

If your second army is also weak (on my case, my armies are chaos marines and orks haha) then you can pray xDDD

CSM and DE here...

CSM's and predominantly Tzeentch Daemons for me...

Sure I could cheese out the Daemons, but I only have 9 Screamers, (vs. 18 Flamers - and I played them long before WD made them obnoxious broken cheddar!!), and I don't like running Fateweaver ever, as I enjoy my generic LoC & seeing him develop his own histories and glories a lot more.
Also looking to soon begin working on a Khornekin warband, but again, I only own 16 Flesh Hounds and anyways, I'd rather run other units that fit the imagery & background of a fallen BA successor chapter turned Khornate worshipers than spam the ever living crap out of min/maxed Gorepacks.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Good lord in heaven where do you people play that they complain that our book is OP? And why is this only Marine players? I'm sorry to say my brothers but it reeks of bs and envy up in here.

Honestly, I haven't had the will to play any games outside of with a couple of friends for well over a year now... It's just too depressing seeing all the toys everyone else is getting, while we get the epic shaft.

I also don't play against die-hard Tournament type players either...
The vast majority of non-Tournament Loyalist players I find tend to be where one finds the legions of spoiled, over-entitled gits. Actually killing a single Space Marine is heresy. Chaos not just falling over dead to a slight breeze is horribly unfluffy, because "in the books" Chaos always loses.

The aforementioned SW player, who claimed it was stupid & beyond unfluffy that 10 guardsmen rapiding firing their lasguns could kill a couple of Marines...
He almost up and quit the game we were playing, (despite how he was curbstomping my Drop Troops due to my inability to roll anything above a 2 that game), when he multi-charged a unit of Blood Claws into a pair of Infantry Squads, failed to wipe them out entirely, and watched as my grunts pulled down a couple Marines in retaliation. (my guardsmen were known to be more fearsome in hand-to-hand than shooting - Delta Squad had once beaten bloody & chased down an entire unit of freaking Harlequins for no loses in return!! )

'Little Timmy' is even worse obviously, though it seems that there's far more 20-somthing Timmy's than actual 8-12 year old Timmy's when it comes to Marine fanboy whining...

 Vankraken wrote:

Franarok wrote:
in any case we will not see a new codex for a year or so....so dream is free.
That damn books of crimsom and black legion doomed us, because GW will no release a new codex that invalids them.

I cant understant GW. I mean, they MUST know chaos is weak and SM are strong.....why gave to the strong codex an op update and to the weak codex a ***** update?


Meanwhile we can play with non competitive friends or use a different army for competitive meta or tournaments. Of course win doesnt means everything....but cant do nothing and feel owned is not fun.

If your second army is also weak (on my case, my armies are chaos marines and orks haha) then you can pray xDDD

GW has no accountability for their rules writers and lately (past few years) they have been phoning it in unless its something that interests them. If the modeling department put out a Sister of Battle Dialogus quality sculpt nowadays then somebody would be out of a job but the rules writers can make terrible rules for things like the Gorkanaut, the Necron Start Collecting Box, Wraithknight, the Ghazzcurion, the entire CSM and Tyranid Codex, etc and its no big deal (at least to our knowledge). Consolation prize in all of this is that I am able to infer with a degree of certainty that somebody on the rules team had a really bad experience with a Killa Kan some point which is why they went out of their way to nerf the poor things into the ground.

Killa Kanz did not get nerfed, clearly they were OP cheese and GW did what they do to all OP units in this game, they increased the points value of the offending unit by 60% to justify how amazing it is. So in the case of the Killa Kan the unit went from 35pts a model to 50pts a model, Who wouldnt want to take a 50pt AV11/11/10 vehicle that comes standard with a Big Shoota! talk about damage out put.

Personally I think its fine that my 12 killa Kanz went from 420pts (480 with upgrades) to 660pts with some upgrades.

Killa Kanz are still so incredibly OP that I use them all the time....as paper weights and for scenery or on display at my home.

 Vankraken wrote:

Franarok wrote:
in any case we will not see a new codex for a year or so....so dream is free.
That damn books of crimsom and black legion doomed us, because GW will no release a new codex that invalids them.

I cant understant GW. I mean, they MUST know chaos is weak and SM are strong.....why gave to the strong codex an op update and to the weak codex a ***** update?


Meanwhile we can play with non competitive friends or use a different army for competitive meta or tournaments. Of course win doesnt means everything....but cant do nothing and feel owned is not fun.

If your second army is also weak (on my case, my armies are chaos marines and orks haha) then you can pray xDDD

GW has no accountability for their rules writers and lately (past few years) they have been phoning it in unless its something that interests them. If the modeling department put out a Sister of Battle Dialogus quality sculpt nowadays then somebody would be out of a job but the rules writers can make terrible rules for things like the Gorkanaut, the Necron Start Collecting Box, Wraithknight, the Ghazzcurion, the entire CSM and Tyranid Codex, etc and its no big deal (at least to our knowledge). Consolation prize in all of this is that I am able to infer with a degree of certainty that somebody on the rules team had a really bad experience with a Killa Kan some point which is why they went out of their way to nerf the poor things into the ground.

What's the bet that all the rules writers are TFG's?

That's the only explanation I can come up with for the current state of 40k. Don't like my triple WK army? FORGE THE NARRATIVE.

 Selym wrote:
Remember kids, random = fun.

CSM gets plus or minus (coin toss) 100 D6 points per game.

Pretty sure that the randomness was meant to represent that Chaos is fickle and "beware if playing with fire blah blah blah".

@ Dark Star Sabre I've actually been playing since 3rd dropped and am very guilty of having run BA and Iron Warriors during 3.5 granted I was like 14 so I couldn't make the best out of it but I do remember the 3.5 book in (most) of its glory.

@ Experiment 626
I, in my 14 years of playing have never, not once heard a marine player whine about his/her models getting killed or power levels in relation to the SM fluff. Gaming partners having been from 12 to pension age, I've never heard a complaint like the ones you described. I always thought it was a false stereotype /trope based off the fact that most beginners start with C:SM. "Beginners " in this case being little Timmy types that read the fluff and hate losing. On behalf of all loyalist players, I apologize for the runts in your area. For those playing SW or out of the Vanilla book they probably have the least to complain about of any faction sans eldar. Those playing BA and complaining I completely understand, but that has feth all to do with other Armies and everything to do that the GW design team metaphorically stomped on the nuts of an invalid when they wrote the dex.

Chaos is fickle - it may give you more forces, it may take away your forces. Hence +/- 100D6 points.

Anyway, I pretty much expect the next CSM codex to have been written so poorly that you cannot use it under RAW.

Stuff like: "All units must arrive on the table via Deep Strike, as per BRB". With no allowance for T1 drop, no scatter mitigation, no reserve fiddling, etc.

Warlord Trait: Khornate Fury
If your warlord has the MoK, he gains Rage

Mark Of Khorne:
Any unit with this mark gains Rage

Legion Relic: Murder Fist of Blood
A warlord with this weapon gains Rage. May only be taken by Warlords with the MoK.

In shotr, my prediction is this:

Everything costs the same (they did not make anything cheaper in KDK).
Half of the special rules go away, all the bad ones stay though.
Relics go from "laspistol with -1 to S" to "chainsword with -1 to T".
Rhinos are gone and LR gets assault transport rule with extra 100p.
Sorcerers cost like l3 now but have max l1.
All non-vehicle units with movement more than 6 inches are gone.
There are only melee weapons.

I want a Dex that will be god for 3 years, has more than 5 builds that can win and does not require buying any more models. See Eldar codex = all units are fieldable.

I predict that this thread will descend into nerd rage and hate like the last one.

Good luck everybody.

 General Kroll wrote:
I predict that this thread will descend into nerd rage and hate like the last one.

Good luck everybody.

Rage for the Rage God! Hate for the Hate Throne!

I predict that;
1. Havocs, Plaguemarines, Noise Marine upgrade pack, Oblits, Mutilators all get sold out and being Finecrap, will no longer be put into continued production.
The result being, that because GW no longer produced rules without models, these units be dropped from the codex altogether.
Chosen will also be removed entirely, as they currently have no kit what-so-ever.
Cultists will likewise have all their options removed, as their kit only contains 5 snap-fit models with 0 options.

2. No new kits. it will be a codex only release, because GW is happy to let Chaos eventually go the way of Squats & Sisters.

3. Points costs will be hiked by 50% across the board and our only upgrade options will be reduced to Flamer/Melta/Plasma guns and Heavy bolters.
This will ensure that Loyalist players can always win, thereby ensuring that the Narrative is always Forged the way it should be!

The fact that that chosen still don't have a kit and the release of these supplements now really does paint a pretty bleak future huh?

Roknar wrote:
The fact that that chosen still don't have a kit and the release of these supplements now really does paint a pretty bleak future huh?

And then you look at the new Loyalist psychic lores, and you realise that it's pretty much confirmed that GW's goal is ensure that Chaos sucks the big one for eternity...

The new Librarius lore, which is the one with the Eldar's Fortune power, is literally also a giant middle finger to Daemons.
Or else they can now hand out IWND and other shenanigans to all their vehicles, on top of Iron Hands making out like freaking bandits! (IW's players can only dream...)

Im bringing back zombie spam with bikes and Heldrakes. Ill run that cultist formation. It will be so bad it will be good.

 redleger wrote:
Im bringing back zombie spam with bikes and Heldrakes. Ill run that cultist formation. It will be so bad it will be good.

Doing stupid, comedy hour level crap is all we have left to us it seems...

I'll bet that next year will also be the year that GW decides that constant power creep is bad for the game, and will begin the process of dialing everything back to super bland & ultra simple styles of codices with us... followed by Tyranids and Orks.
The of course it will be time to re-do Space Marines, Eldar, Tau & Guard, and everything will get ramped back up into the greatest arms race 40k has ever seen.

Oh well, as long as our model gets 100% overhaul and at least gets the same treatment as everyone else, I can at least be happy with finally having some decent kits to work with, and finally look damn good while getting my army handed back to me within 2 turns.

The new psychic powers from angels of death just show how much gw hates us.

Two redone supplements, still garbage psychic powers. Released at the same time as angels of death.

Bolt action is looking more and more appealing jeeze.

 Konrax wrote:
The new psychic powers from angels of death just show how much gw hates us.

Two redone supplements, still garbage psychic powers. Released at the same time as angels of death.

Bolt action is looking more and more appealing jeeze.

Don't worry, Loyalist players will just wave their hands and claim that we have formations now, Daemons & IA:13 are completely OP, and Eldar are still better than them. Therefore, their new stuff is simply well balanced and amazingly fluffy, and we should stop whining and be thankful for our newest "releases".

I could go into a long list of everything I could wishlist, but all I want is something that can fight Eldar. Until then, I'm not playing 40K.

Ever since my last "non-competitive friendly" progressive league game where restrictions meant no vehicles with combined armor over 33 were allowed below 1000 points, but 13 scatter bikes with bike farseer are fair and legal at 500 points, I have found no enjoyment. It's a pity, cause I really WANT to enjoy the game.

So, I stand by that statement, All I want is something that can go toe to toe with eldar.

Good lord in heaven where do you people play that they complain that our book is OP? And why is this only Marine players? I'm sorry to say my brothers but it reeks of bs and envy up in here.

A guy from our group genuinly think that KDK is amonsgt the 4top OP armies of the game, along side with Crons, Eldars and Taus...

Each time i think about it, i can't stop laughing...

Based on the evidence so far: I predict I'll be saving myself £30 - £35

Let's not forget a Relic weapon that requires a Tally of kills to start actually working.

0-5- Str User Ap. 3
5-10- +1 Str.
10-15- Ap. 2
15-20- +2 Str
25+30- Str. D

and we will be so excited!

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Let's not forget a Relic weapon that requires a Tally of kills to start actually working.

0-5- Str User Ap. 3
5-10- +1 Str.
10-15- Ap. 2
15-20- +2 Str
25+30- Str. D

and we will be so excited!

Depends on the cost. Equal to, or slightly more than a power sword? Probably worth it

That's a Daemonsword. Minimum 60 points.

I believe there will be GK equivalents of Daemon Weapons that are Force and have no Downside when rolling a 1 on a D6

I cant wait to roll my CSM into a plastic shredder!

But but but! If we take 2 squads of CSM and 1 squad of CSM terminators and 1 squad of CSM bikes and 1 squad of havocs and a Chaos Lord and we make it across the board into close combat without getting shot up and we challenge and win the challenge without getting killed, we can roll twice(!!!) on the Chaos Boon table!

Ultimately an army with 2 rolls on the Chaos Boon table has a lot going for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, here's my prediction for the CSM decurion:

BLACK CRUSADE

RESTRICTIONS
This Detachment must include at least one Core choice.  It may include any number of additional Core choices.  For every Core choice it may include one Auxiliary choice and one Command choice.

COMMAND BENEFITS
Chosen of Chaos: If this Detachment is chosen as your Primary Detachment, you can choose to re-roll the result when rolling on the Warlord Traits table in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Despoiler of Worlds: All Troops from this Detachment have the Despoiler of Worlds special rule.  A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the marker, unless the enemy unit has this special rule or the Objective Secured special rule.

CORE
Warband of Chaos
• 1 Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Dark Apostle, Warpsmith, Daemon Prince, Abaddon the Despoiler, Huron Blackheart or Fabius Bile
• 2-6 units of Chaos Space Marines or Chaos Cultists (in any combination)

Warband of Khorne
• 1 Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne or Kharn the Betrayer
• 2-6 units of Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Cultists or Khorne Berzerkers (in any combination)
Special Rules: Khorne Berzerkers from this Formation change their battlefield role from Elites to Troops.

Warband of Nurgle
• 1 Chaos Lord with the Mark of Nurgle or Typhus
• 2-6 units of Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Cultists or Plague Marines (in any combination)
Special Rules: Plague Marines from this Formation change their battlefield role from Elites to Troops.

Warband of Slaanesh
• 1 Chaos Lord with the Mark of Slaanesh or Lucius the Eternal
• 2-6 units of Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Cultists or Noise Marines (in any combination)
Special Rules: Noise Marines from this Formation change their battlefield role from Elites to Troops.

Warband of Tzeentch
• 1 Chaos Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch or Ahriman
• 2-6 units of Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Cultists or Thousand Sons (in any combination)
Special Rules: Thousand Sons from this Formation change their battlefield role from Elites to Troops.

COMMAND
Lord of Chaos
• 1 Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Dark Apostle, Warpsmith, Daemon Prince, Abaddon the Despoiler, Huron Blackheart or Fabius Bile

AUXILIARY
Auxiliaries of Chaos
• 1-3 Chosen, Possessed, Chaos Terminators, Helbrutes or Mutilators (in any combination)
• 1-3 Chaos Bikers, Chaos Spawn, Raptors, Warp Talons or Heldrakes (in any combination)
• 1-3 Havocs, Obliterators, Defilers, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Chaos Land Raiders, Chaos Vindicators or Chaos Predators  (in any combination)

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
...

So, a cad but worse.

Sounds about right. :/

shiwan8 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
...

So, a cad but worse.

Sounds about right. :/

Forgot the most important part. The army list!

HQ: -

Troops: Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Cultists

Elites: Chosen, Possessed, Chaos Terminators, Helbrutes, Mutilators

Fast Attack: Chaos Bikers, Chaos Spawn, Raptors, Warp Talons, Heldrakes

Heavy Support: Havocs, Obliterators, Defilers, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Chaos Land Raiders, Chaos Vindicators, Chaos Predators

Lord of War: Abaddon the Despoiler, Huron Blackheart, Kharn the Betrayer, Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius the Eternal, Fabius Bile, Chaos Lord, Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, Warpsmith, Dark Apostle

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
That's a Daemonsword. Minimum 60 points.

It also needs an extra rule where every time the user takes a wound from any source they deduct 10 from the tally.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

shiwan8 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
...

So, a cad but worse.

Sounds about right. :/

Forgot the most important part. The army list!

HQ: -

Troops: Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Cultists

Elites: Chosen, Possessed, Chaos Terminators, Helbrutes, Mutilators

Fast Attack: Chaos Bikers, Chaos Spawn, Raptors, Warp Talons, Heldrakes

Heavy Support: Havocs, Obliterators, Defilers, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Chaos Land Raiders, Chaos Vindicators, Chaos Predators

Lord of War: Abaddon the Despoiler, Huron Blackheart, Kharn the Betrayer, Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius the Eternal, Fabius Bile, Chaos Lord, Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, Warpsmith, Dark Apostle

You forgot that the "new" Champion of Chaos rule will limit our Warlord Traits being available to only models that come from the HQ section.

Additionally, if a model with the Champion of Chaos rule is killed in any way, the Dark Gods punish their servant's failure and the Chaos player loses D6 vicory pts/objectives in any games which keep track of them.

Actual prediction:

no new codex at all. CSM decurion and a couple new artifacts, none of them remarkable one way or the other, released as part of a campaign expansion late 2017.

Half the formations in the decurion are unplayable, including the core formation, but the rest aren't bad, and you can almost make a decent army running them on their own alongside a cad for FW access. Even the best of them don't really make up for the lackluster and inefficient units that make them up, though.

The only new model releases are a plastic warpsmith and a plastic mutilator/obliterator dual kit.

Six months later 40k End Times happens. In the end, the 6e CSM codex is the last ever released.