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Typically-Wardian wrote: 1) Chaos DOES need to be vastly different, that's why its done on a separate codex. What would be the point otherwise?
2) You get a free MC. Y'know, the things that instagib tanks and eat characters? It's one of the many reasons CSM needs a nerf.
3) It represents all the CSM. The reason that the new renegades lose the new tech is for an attempt at balance. And after 10k years sitting in the warp, you'd lose all ability to do anything useful, so of course the dark mech deosnt make new stuff.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: In all honest chaos shouldn't have grav weaponry and stuff. You guys are good where you're at. I mean look at helldrakes.. I wish I had something similar in my eldar forces. Super jelly
Finally, someone sensible in this thread.
You CSM players constantly whine about how you are sooo hard done by. Get over it, you've got one of the better codexes. You could be Ultramarines, who get blander and blander every edition as the things that made them special get given to other factions.
Selym wrote: Don't worry, ot's balanced because you are a filthy heretic and how dare you try to win against ULTRAMARINES, your spiritual lieges.
It's ironic that you're only ever right when you're being sarcastic... CSM are the bad guys of 40k, you're supposed to lose.
Not sure if troll or if you genuinely believe this.
I mean, hey, if you genuinely believe this I'm pretty sure the CSM players of Dakka can band together to find you some help mate.
EnTyme wrote: On-topic, though, I fully expect to see Chaos to rise from the ashes sooner or later. You're still expected to get a new codex sometime next year.
I admire your optimism, no matter how badly-placed.
EnTyme wrote: On-topic, though, I fully expect to see Chaos to rise from the ashes sooner or later. You're still expected to get a new codex sometime next year.
I admire your optimism, no matter how badly-placed.
I fully expect CSM to get the IG treatment.
You're too optimistic... I fully expect them to get the Sisters treatment, followed shortly up afterwards by the Squats treatment.
Except for Khorne, because in the grim darkness of the far future, there's only a few dozen or so Angry Red Spiky Marines!
Brutus_Apex wrote: They are now. It sucked for a while loosing that codex, and when close combat was actually you know...good?
Still didn't see any formations etc. in the new Space Marine supplement.
I think it's pretty wretched on GW's part that they didn't at least allow an army with 'Chapter Tactics: Black Templars' to substitute Crusader Squads for Tacticals in the Demi-Company/GSF Detachment.
A formation or two for Templars only would be have been welcome as well in the new supplement, instead of just piling even more obnoxious crap into the mix for those Chapters that really didn't need it...
Really, the only Loyalist players imho that have any decent right to vehemently complain are Templar & Dark Angel players.
Everyone else has had at least 2-3 editions of being among the top dogs.
(note: a part of me REALLY wants to eventually do a Templar army, if only because I could simply turn every single tactical decision into a cry of 'God Wills It!' in true Kingdom of Heaven fashion! )
note: a part of me REALLY wants to eventually do a Templar army, if only because I could simply turn every single tactical decision into a cry of 'God Wills It!' in true Kingdom of Heaven fashion!
lol, totally. I love that movie, it's great for painting templars or bretonnians to.
I've been in a 40K rut since 5th edition, I've kinda just hated the rules and now that they killed off fantasy too I mostly just collect.
I'm buying up and finishing 12 fantasy armies to play before they all go extinct so thats my hobby right now. All my 40K stuff is on hold until that is accomplished. Then I'm going to dive back into 40K once all my fantasy stuff is done.
I am doing a Sons of Horus army though too...
Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi
Experiment 626 wrote: Really, the only Loyalist players imho that have any decent right to vehemently complain are Templar & Dark Angel players.
Everyone else has had at least 2-3 editions of being among the top dogs.
All loyalist players have that right, we've never been top dog of any edition. CSM have had it multiple times.
DarkStarSabre wrote: I mean, hey, if you genuinely believe this I'm pretty sure the CSM players of Dakka can band together to find you some help mate.
Really? If anyone needs a are home it's anyone that can't figure out how to use their own codex.
Sold my soul to Chaos and all I got was a T-shirt! This is how most of Chaos marines feel at present.
There are a limited number of directions GW could go with Chaos.. one effectively replicates FW's legion rules for the Chaos marines. While I think that's what most people want I think GW would say "then people can use FW's rules"... especially whenever they move into the scouring era and these things start to become more in line with 40k era chaos. Another is a stronger regard for the "Renegade" element, but where if done properly would include too many more Loyalist elements than GW really wants to afford them and diminishes the distinctions. Making Chaos more distinctive in 40k I think should be their main goal, acknowledge these traditional elements but focus on the stuff the elevates Chaos as a distinct force.
I think Chaos should be made as distinct as possible and I think it needs to be a relatively drastic shift. I think GW needs to think of Chaos marines as more of an "elite" army, in the sense of it having fewer units but where they are more powerful than average. Up the super natural slant of the warp. Units like Grey Knights or Legion of the Damned have more of a supernatural slant than the guys with pure chaos warp energy running through their veins. I realize that isn't indicative of all chaos marines, but in a sense when a player builds and plays an army their army represents the best of the best going to war, key players in a galactic or planetary war.
Consider, at present our two basic troop choices are our version of tactical squad and cultists, but fictionally these Chaos Space marines are at the bottom, filling the same low distinction as loyalist scouts do... Scouts at least have a role that distinguishes them. Cultists do to; cultist were a great addition to Chaos. My radical move drop the Chaos Space marine troop choice and the units immediately derived from a basic Chaos Space Marine and make Chosen the starting point. For instance Havocs is pretty representational but not all that distinctive. I think Obliterators are more viscerally Chaos so why have Havoc in an army struggling to distinguish itself.
The Codex wouldn't represent all Chaos marines, but the current one doesn't either... and as awesome as it could be for GW to give Chaos as much as loyalists, it isn't likely to happen.Chaos can then be elevated by asserting itself as the exemplars of chaos devotees... instead of the average pushover chaos marine.
I think the Codex should move away from god specific marks... while its nice to select the way in which unit is tweaked it introduces systemic opportunities for inconsistencies and internal imbalance. With the exception of the Cult Specific units, it shouldn't be because of their god affiliation that they are ultimately a good or bad unit to take. They should make sense as a unit in terms of everything they can accomplish in their own right. Its this sorta half-butt way of doing plague marines on bike that is contrived... but if they are fictionally a thing that are that good they should just be a unit in their own right... plague riders or some such.
What I'm proposing is a Chaos Marine codex that simply acknowledges the limited amount of resources that GW wants to put into Chaos Marines. As it is they struggle to keep the Chaos Marine model line even close to upto date. It is to the point that even if they did a standard large release and did nothing except update miniature with the next codex release they'd still be deficient.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 06:19:44
I agree, and what's even more of a wonder to their logic is several stories tell how hive worlds are so well defended that when they go heretic, it takes an entire Imperial Naval fleet and several Space Marine fleets just to make planetfall, and they are not guarantee victory.
But, some how they read all those little stories about space marines wrecking face against a few cultists and such that space marines become invincible in their minds.
22 yrs in the hobby
:Eldar: 10K+ pts, 2500 pts
1850 pts
Vampire Counts 4000+
Experiment 626 wrote: Really, the only Loyalist players imho that have any decent right to vehemently complain are Templar & Dark Angel players.
Everyone else has had at least 2-3 editions of being among the top dogs.
All loyalist players have that right, we've never been top dog of any edition. CSM have had it multiple times.
Multiple times you say? Hmm, maybe the late 3rd ed. and early part of 4th we were ONE of the top dogs. But I don't actually think CSM have ever been top dog. Now, you want to know a faction that has consistently been top dog in every edition, from 2nd onwards? Eldar. And to be honest, Loyalist SM have always been pretty solid with the exception of 3rd ed where they underperformed a bit. Chapter Traits, Mix and Match SCs and Chapter Tactics have ensured you remained solid from 4th ed. straight through to present day.
Now, you want to know a Codex that has regularly been sub-par, genericised and villified constantly through multiple editions? CSM! Ho ho ho! What a twist, eh?
DarkStarSabre wrote: I mean, hey, if you genuinely believe this I'm pretty sure the CSM players of Dakka can band together to find you some help mate.
Really? If anyone needs a are home it's anyone that can't figure out how to use their own codex.
Way to miss the entire point of pretty much any thread involving the problems with the CSM codex. Currently the best way to use the CSM codex is as follows. Step 1 - Purchase Imperial Armour Vol 13 for access to better vehicles. Step 2 - purchase the Be'lakor dataslate for access to Be'lakor. Step 3 - Purchase the Daemon codex for allies.
Construct army as follows - take Be'lakor, 2 min sized Cultist units and your choice of Force Org slots from IA: 13. Ally Daemons for the rest. That's a sorry mess right there mate. The best way to field a CSM codex is to literally not field any units from the Codex.
Meanwhile every other army can field Tier 1 or Tier 2 armies from their own book. Any supplemental rules are just icing on the cake. I have pointed out time and again how reprehensible it is for any army to have a £80+ tax just to be viable. Others have pointed out that for an army with the most potential for theme in the game - Chaos hasn't even got one. Our book is a mishmash of confusion with no direction. The end result is a book where there is very little internal balance or synergy and where every. Single. Thing. We have can be replicated by another book for less points with better effectiveness.
The Space Marine codex is so far beyond the CSM book in terms of power and balance that it is more feasible to make a CSM army USING THAT BOOK.
And you also seem to miss a key point about us CSM players.
Most of us don't want to have UBER RULES and INSTANT WIN CONS. People seem to believe that's why the 3.5 book was so highly praised. No. Not at all. Most of us want a book that supports multiple viable builds and allows us to build an army around different themes. The 3.5 book was great because it covered all the Legions and also had enough variety to do generic renegades as well. It was great because it allowed us to build any one of a number of armies - CSM armies were never really cookie cutter - my local group has Iron Warriors, Death Guard, World Eaters and Emperor's Children. And they were all modeled as such and built around their respective themes.
And this has been how every SM codex since 4th has functioned - freely, allowing people to take different traits or tactics and I'll be more than honest and state that the current SM book, with the supplements has so much flexibility it's unreal.
We know how to play our army. We always have. But what we're getting sick and tired of is being expected to just deal with it while every other army gets updated, added to and improved while we are left floundering.
We don't, and shouldn't become super elites on the level of Grey Knights as a whole. While the remaining Heresy Era veterans might be on that level, the vast majority of Chaos Marines are mass produced grunts, who still have to earn their hard-won experience like any other newly minted Marine.
What we need, is to simply have our own versions of basic rules that allow an expensive, elite infantry army to function within the basic core rules.
Loyalists get ATSKNF in part to represent the background behind their training & the heavy indoctrination during their creation, but more importantly, it gives them a means to avoid the pitfalls of basic things like a single unlucky Ld test instantly wiping out a 150-200+ squad in one fell swoop.
Chaos needs a similar rule. (note: similar doesn't mean identical - but we do require something!!)
Giving Chaos a rule such as 'First Among Equals' or 'Chosen of the Gods' or such, that perhaps removes any negative moral modifiers when taking Moral/Pinning tests. Or else, something like 'Stubborn in close combat + if caught in a sweeping advance, can test on unmodified Ld to immediately regroup and stay locked in combat, instead of being wiped out'.
Chaos Marines aren't brain-washed like Loyalists are, and their self serving nature will mean that they do see retreat as a great option if they can leave others to die in their stead. However, they can't remain an army that's effectively no braver - especially in assaults, than the likes of Guard or Orks! (actually, even despite how bad Mob Rule is currently, Orks are still better Ld-wise than CSM's are!)
Similarly, the whole Chapter Tactics rules were developed because GW realised that forcing Marines to pay additional pts for their basic special rules, again made them too costly to viably function. Chaos needs similar treatment!
'Legion Ancestries' simply give both an overall theme to the army, and more importantly, gives otherwise expensive T4/3+ models the additional special rules they require to function. Having to pay through the nose for Marks & Icons just to get similar rules is half of what's currently crippling our entire army!
We just can't viably function when our basic models with Counter-Attack + Rage, cost 3-4pts/model more than their Loyalist equivalents, who get those rules simply baked into their base cost - and at a discount to boot!
Likewise, our basic squad options need to take into account that being expensive generalists is self defeating in 40k.
Tactical Squads got the Combat Squad rule simply because they were unusable units without it... No one in their right mind would pay 180-200pts for 10 guys with a single Missile launcher + Flamer. Why? Because it was excessively wasteful! If you shot the Missile launcher at a tank, you wasted 9 other guys. Likewise, if the squad was required to move at all, then the heavy weapon was unable to function.
So, GW brought back the ability for Loyalists to break-up their generalist unit, and allow each half to better function. There's still some wasted potential, but really, no one blinks at losing out on 4 Bolters, when they now have the ability to use that Missile launcher to crack open the enemy's Rhino/Trukk/Raider/whatever, and then use the other demi-squad to poor their firepower into the guys who just lost their ride. (or else for example, they can Grav cannon the big, nasty MC, while the Serg w/combi-weapon + special weapon grunt can go nuke a vehicle with their Meltas, etc...)
While we don't need the Combat Squads rule itself, we do need the option to take for example, a heavy weapon at only 5 men! This would allow Chaos Marines to mimic other Marines in similar capabilities, but it's still not as flexible or efficient as Loyalists.
It's these types of things that have long doomed Chaos Marines to being merely 'joke status'.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Most of us don't want to have UBER RULES and INSTANT WIN CONS.
Actually, we do. The longer CSM stay down, the harder they should come back with a meta-breaking auto-winning Codex that is no less powerful than Eldar-Tau-SM-Admech Superfriends.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Most of us don't want to have UBER RULES and INSTANT WIN CONS.
Actually, we do. The longer CSM stay down, the harder they should come back with a meta-breaking auto-winning Codex that is no less powerful than Eldar-Tau-SM-Admech Superfriends.
I won't lie when I say that a part of me really would love to have the ability to build a pants-on-head OP list of ultimate soul crushing doom... Part of me is to the point that after enduring the ridicule and hypocritical double standard of so many Loyalist fan boys, that I'd relish the ability to stick a shiny new, OP as feth codex right up their poop chute.
A large number of Loyalist players really do need a good, solid thrashing and a small mountain of humble pie. They've been shoving their power armoured boot up our backsides for so long, that we really do deserve at least a small moment to return the favour!
On the whole though, I'd honestly be over joyed if we got something that's as capable as the Daemon codex...
It's a fun codex, with plenty of options to build themed lists, and it's only broken as flying rodent gak if you really go out of your way to make it so.
Sorry, but I can't back the notion of coming in deliberately nerfed as a second tier book when the meta is defined by SEVERAL Tier 1 armies of comparable power. If CSM are getting new rules, they need to match the other Tier 1 armies. Full stop.
Experiment 626 wrote: We don't and shouldn't become super elites on the level of Grey Knights as a whole. While the remaining Heresy Era veterans might be on that level, the vast majority of Chaos Marines are mass produced grunts, who still have to earn their hard-won experience like any other newly minted Marine.
What we need, is to simply have our own versions of basic rules that allow an expensive, elite infantry army to function within the basic core rules.
The point wasn't to say CSM should Grey Knight level of elite. It was to say the units imbued with the cosmic forces and powers of Chaos should be on that level, but where the army still retains a balance through its great reliance on units that aren't.
CSM they sell their souls for power but in general those powers are paper thin and pale in comparison to loyalist SM abilities. If those abilities were so easy no marine would ever turn to chaos and take a downgrade.
My point was just that if GW can't support all of what CSM are suppose to represent it should focus on the best parts to make something that's more viable in the games and sustainable for them.
Similarly, the whole Chapter Tactics rules were developed because GW realised that forcing Marines to pay additional pts for their basic special rules, again made them too costly to viably function. Chaos needs similar treatment!
'Legion Ancestries' simply give both an overall theme to the army, and more importantly, gives otherwise expensive T4/3+ models the additional special rules they require to function. Having to pay through the nose for Marks & Icons just to get similar rules is half of what's currently crippling our entire army!
We just can't viably function when our basic models with Counter-Attack + Rage, cost 3-4pts/model more than their Loyalist equivalents, who get those rules simply baked into their base cost - and at a discount to boot!
I think this is probably the single greatest cost effectiveness problem the army has. GW has never taken its point pricing practices as they've evolved over several editions and applied them to Chaos. Imagine if for instance having your army entirely devoted to a single god, granting marks of chaos for that god for free, or even just all the marks being free. If not free a one time cost that is applied to the army as a whole rather than unit by unit. Given what loyalists have, its not game breaking.
Likewise, our basic squad options need to take into account that being expensive generalists is self defeating in 40k.
...
While we don't need the Combat Squads rule itself, we do need the option to take for example, a heavy weapon at only 5 men! This would allow Chaos Marines to mimic other Marines in similar capabilities, but it's still not as flexible or efficient as Loyalists.
This speaks to GW's lack of cohesive vision for Chaos armies. Loyalists have a special and heavy weapon and combat squads because of their adherence to Imperial doctrine. Chaos should represent a marine force in absence of that doctrine. There is a certain irony that CSM who rebelled against the Imperium have a stricter squad structure. This is one reason I think Chosen are better template for where CSM basic troop choices should start.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Way to miss the entire point of pretty much any thread involving the problems with the CSM codex. Currently the best way to use the CSM codex is as follows. Step 1 - Purchase Imperial Armour Vol 13 for access to better vehicles. Step 2 - purchase the Be'lakor dataslate for access to Be'lakor. Step 3 - Purchase the Daemon codex for allies.
Anyone who has to rely on forgeworld to win is just a bad player. And SM players have to ally with IG and Tau if they want spammable infantry or good AA, CSM gets that stuff happily in their own damn codex.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Most of us don't want to have UBER RULES and INSTANT WIN CONS.
Actually, we do. The longer CSM stay down, the harder they should come back with a meta-breaking auto-winning Codex that is no less powerful than Eldar-Tau-SM-Admech Superfriends.
No, we don't need more power creep. It's bad enough having baledrakes floating around.
Experiment 626 wrote: I won't lie when I say that a part of me really would love to have the ability to build a pants-on-head OP list of ultimate soul crushing doom... Part of me is to the point that after enduring the ridicule and hypocritical double standard of so many Loyalist fan boys, that I'd relish the ability to stick a shiny new, OP as feth codex right up their poop chute.
A large number of Loyalist players really do need a good, solid thrashing and a small mountain of humble pie. They've been shoving their power armoured boot up our backsides for so long, that we really do deserve at least a small moment to return the favour!
Really? This is the kind of thinking that gives CSM players the reputation they have rn. It's like you all are waactfg's.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/21 18:47:45
Experiment 626 wrote: GW's problem is that;
1. They believe that Chaos has to be vastly different from their loyalist counterparts in order to not simply be viewed as a direct clone of 'Marines but with spikes!'.
2. And worst of all, the supposed "super reward" from that chart, instead is actually the very last thing that any Chaos player wants to roll, since you trade out an effective character for a hugely awful naked Daemon Prince.
3. GW doesn't know what to do with the faction.
Is the codex supposed to focused on the Heresy Era veterans? What about recently turned Renegade Chapters? Oh, and let's not forget about those Dark Mechanicus guys & Chaos Cults either!
So instead of a focused theme, we have stupidity such as Heresy Veterans who are actually worse than present day Loyalist Marines, and recently turned Renegades who hilariously insist on dumping all of their modern tech at the Cadian Gate before exiting into the Eye to become Chaos Marines!
And those Dark Mechanicum guys who have thrown off the shackles of the Priesthood's rigid rules, are instead apparently the least adept guys in the entire galaxy at coming up with new things.
1) Chaos DOES need to be vastly different, that's why its done on a separate codex. What would be the point otherwise?
2) You get a free MC. Y'know, the things that instagib tanks and eat characters? It's one of the many reasons CSM needs a nerf.
3) It represents all the CSM. The reason that the new renegades lose the new tech is for an attempt at balance. And after 10k years sitting in the warp, you'd lose all ability to do anything useful, so of course the dark mech deosnt make new stuff.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: In all honest chaos shouldn't have grav weaponry and stuff. You guys are good where you're at. I mean look at helldrakes.. I wish I had something similar in my eldar forces. Super jelly
Finally, someone sensible in this thread.
You CSM players constantly whine about how you are sooo hard done by. Get over it, you've got one of the better codexes. You could be Ultramarines, who get blander and blander every edition as the things that made them special get given to other factions.
Selym wrote: Don't worry, ot's balanced because you are a filthy heretic and how dare you try to win against ULTRAMARINES, your spiritual lieges.
It's ironic that you're only ever right when you're being sarcastic... CSM are the bad guys of 40k, you're supposed to lose.
T_W was the guy in that enormous IG thread, and the several page troll thread who spent ages just trolling everyone. Kept trying to "prove" that IG weren't underpowered at all.
"Oh poor me, I don't get to wear gold and blue, and my spiritual liege doesn't like me"
"Poor CSM, they only have a giant Ap3 template weapon that wounds on 2's and does not allow saves on really expensive units"
"Poor CSM, they only have T6 bikers"
"Poor CSM, they have cheap spammable objective grabbers"
and so on.
"OH, poor C:SM, we only have assault out of deepstrike shenanigans"
"Poor C:SM, we have the best anti-mc weapon in the game on good platforms"
"Poor C:SM, we have the most psychic powers out of any faction"
"Poor C:SM, We have 2++ Rerollable\2+++ Deathstars and have more BBs than anyone"
"Poor C:SM, we have free, spammable obsec rhinoes"
"Poor C:SM, we have the most options out of any codex"
"Poor C:SM, we place well\win almost, if not as much as Eldar at tournies"
"Oh poor me, I don't get to wear gold and blue, and my spiritual liege doesn't like me"
"Poor CSM, they only have a giant Ap3 template weapon that wounds on 2's and does not allow saves on really expensive units"
"Poor CSM, they only have T6 bikers"
"Poor CSM, they have cheap spammable objective grabbers"
and so on.
"OH, poor C:SM, we only have assault out of deepstrike shenanigans"
"Poor C:SM, we have the best anti-mc weapon in the game on good platforms"
"Poor C:SM, we have the most psychic powers out of any faction"
"Poor C:SM, We have 2++ Rerollable\2+++ Deathstars and have more BBs than anyone"
"Poor C:SM, we have free, spammable obsec rhinoes"
"Poor C:SM, we have the most options out of any codex"
"Poor C:SM, we place well\win almost, if not as much as Eldar at tournies"
Ect. Ect. Ad infinitum
And then the Loyalist fan base wonder why we're so bitter and salty, when people like T-W aren't even in the minority...
"Oh poor me, I don't get to wear gold and blue, and my spiritual liege doesn't like me"
"Poor CSM, they only have a giant Ap3 template weapon that wounds on 2's and does not allow saves on really expensive units"
"Poor CSM, they only have T6 bikers"
"Poor CSM, they have cheap spammable objective grabbers"
and so on.
Yeah because an AV12 flyer is so darn difficult to knock out of the sky right?, and it kills max 1 unit per turn, wich with the placement needed, leave you open for retaliation, had more often my drake destroyed by mass bolter fire in the exhaust port, then actually loose him to anti-vehicle weapons.
Yeah because those T6 bikers are soooooo cheap, that we can have a whole army of them, and they also have D3 HoW and reroll jinks and scouts...oh no wait...
yeah like marines doesn't have scouts, higher price yes, but better overall , better weaponry, and sniper rifles and are still fething marines with ATSKNF, even though that they are only trainees...
"Oh poor me, I don't get to wear gold and blue, and my spiritual liege doesn't like me"
"Poor CSM, they only have a giant Ap3 template weapon that wounds on 2's and does not allow saves on really expensive units"
"Poor CSM, they only have T6 bikers"
"Poor CSM, they have cheap spammable objective grabbers"
and so on.
"OH, poor C:SM, we only have assault out of deepstrike shenanigans"
"Poor C:SM, we have the best anti-mc weapon in the game on good platforms"
"Poor C:SM, we have the most psychic powers out of any faction"
"Poor C:SM, We have 2++ Rerollable\2+++ Deathstars and have more BBs than anyone"
"Poor C:SM, we have free, spammable obsec rhinoes"
"Poor C:SM, we have the most options out of any codex"
"Poor C:SM, we place well\win almost, if not as much as Eldar at tournies"
Ect. Ect. Ad infinitum
And then the Loyalist fan base wonder why we're so bitter and salty, when people like T-W aren't even in the minority...
The funny part is I'm a loyalist player (though I have just started a daemons force because i like MCs and Randomness )
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/21 21:26:26
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