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Pain4Pleasure wrote:


I would ask you to prove that I had not purchased the model and rules, and was using my scan and a conversion as my model and rules are in a display case at home for show only. The judge would agree and you would fail to do so. End of conversation at that point.

You can't prove a negative claim. Sure if you can convince a judge that you own a legal copy of the rules and model that would be the end of conversation. But it's up to you to prove it to the judge. If it's allowed to use scanned rules, then would it be allowed to use a codex you downloaded from your favorite torrent site? How could a discerning judge tell the difference between a scan of a document you own, and one obtained by illegal means?

It's a pretty simple question. Do we all agree to play by the same set of rules or do some of us get to use better rules because we spent more money?

sirlynchmob wrote:
If it's allowed to use scanned rules, then would it be allowed to use a codex you downloaded from your favorite torrent site? How could a discerning judge tell the difference between a scan of a document you own, and one obtained by illegal means?

He couldn't, and so would be wasting his time by trying.

In which case, he has the choice of either allowing digital copies of the rules (which a growing number of players are using due to the more widespread use of tablets and the nuisance of carrying around multiple hardcover books), or not allowing them. Not allowing digital copies of some rules would be asinine.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
If it's allowed to use scanned rules, then would it be allowed to use a codex you downloaded from your favorite torrent site? How could a discerning judge tell the difference between a scan of a document you own, and one obtained by illegal means?

He couldn't, and so would be wasting his time by trying.

In which case, he has the choice of either allowing digital copies of the rules (which a growing number of players are using due to the more widespread use of tablets and the nuisance of carrying around multiple hardcover books), or not allowing them. Not allowing digital copies of some rules would be asinine.

There fore a scan would be allowed.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The issue with that oine of thinking is that only those that can afford to pay to win can have the good things. Requiring the official model and box set rules sheet in order to field the Imperial Space Marine is a way of limiting this option to only those that had the money and the free time to snag one. It's the mind set of only the elite should playing this game, the riff-raff can go play X-Wing.

By allowing everyone the option to play an Imperial Space Marine if they want via a suitable conversion, printed rules, and a legal squad to put it in, the game is more accessable and less douchy.

SJ

But the former is what helps keep the game balanced more in the long run. For the reasons you stated (exclusivity, asking price, limited window), very few people will end up getting the model, and therefore very few people in the entire meta will be using one in their armies.

If everyone was allowed to kit-bash an Imperial Marine and print out a grainy .jpg image from google search that shows the rules and field it, EVERYONE would do so because it is like a Black Lotus for the Space Marine army: making it a tiny bit more competitive for no points cost at all. And THAT is a power creep that can be felt everywhere.

I very much agree with what you've said here. There's a reason why he's rare. That's how he should be kept. If you're a SM player, be happy that you had the option of getting extra love at all. I don't hear other races complain the same way.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
It's a pretty simple question. Do we all agree to play by the same set of rules or do some of us get to use better rules because we spent more money?

This. Either he's good to go in the game in which case anyone willing to model him and print the rules should be able to use him, or he shouldn't be allowed at all.

Outside of all the whining, what could this model proxy as if you have multiples?

I am thinking scout snipers due to the scope...

You?

LinkXx wrote:
. There's a reason why he's rare.

That reason isn't anything to do with game balance.

 insaniak wrote:

LinkXx wrote:
. There's a reason why he's rare.

That reason isn't anything to do with game balance.

Aye, I got the model, people wanted it. If they made it regular its just a expensive space marine....

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
It's a pretty simple question. Do we all agree to play by the same set of rules or do some of us get to use better rules because we spent more money?

You present a false dichotomy, not a simple question.

nareik wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
It's a pretty simple question. Do we all agree to play by the same set of rules or do some of us get to use better rules because we spent more money?

You present a false dichotomy, not a simple question.

Quite.

If someone buys angels of death then he has access to rules you do not because he spent more money and this is playing by the rules.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

nareik wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
It's a pretty simple question. Do we all agree to play by the same set of rules or do some of us get to use better rules because we spent more money?

You present a false dichotomy, not a simple question.

Quite.

If someone buys angels of death then he has access to rules you do not because he spent more money and this is playing by the rules.

We're talking different things here. It isn't really a question of what we own at this moment, but what we have access to. Assume Player A purchased a limited edition model that came with limited edition rules during its narrow window of availability and Player B didn't. Fast forward to today. Player A and Player B don't have access to the same rule set. Player A has more, and potentially better, options. Player A will always be able to build more powerful army lists.

So, to clarify the above comment, some players get to use better rule because they spent more money during a specific point in time. The Angels of Death Supplement is a bad comparison because I can go buy it today. Limited edition rules instantly create a class of "haves" versus a class of "have nots" the second they go out of print. Games Workshop limited edition rules seem particularly bad because they go out of print within minutes or hours of being released.

 Draccan wrote:
Outside of all the whining, what could this model proxy as if you have multiples?

I am thinking scout snipers due to the scope...

You?

I'm thinking a veteran scout sergeant with the Nihilus.

Again, this seems like a lot of fuss over one model with one wound in an army. If it bothers you that much, focus-fire his unit turn one. Problem solved.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:


I would ask you to prove that I had not purchased the model and rules, and was using my scan and a conversion as my model and rules are in a display case at home for show only. The judge would agree and you would fail to do so. End of conversation at that point.

Then the judge took everyone out for ice cream and everyone clapped and cheered. And that judge's name? Albert Einstein.

Serious question now.... Well, only half serious.

If you replace an assault marine with the Imperial Marine, it would technically be legal to give him the jump pack, right?

 cuda1179 wrote:
Serious question now.... Well, only half serious.

If you replace an assault marine with the Imperial Marine, it would technically be legal to give him the jump pack, right?

Probably? A quick read looks OK. You are nor swapping something out that he doesn’t have (He lacks a chainsword and bolt pistol, so a lot of the normal exchanges aren’t possible). The unique rule looks to just be “only one in the army” and doesn’t intrinsically mean “can’t adjust”

Now my common sense is telling me special characters can’t be given extra wargear. But frankly, that’s probably just years of accumulated editions of fantasy/early 40k. And this guy isn’t a special character. Even though he kinda feel like one.

Dunno.

I can see the argument, though.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Serious question now.... Well, only half serious.

If you replace an assault marine with the Imperial Marine, it would technically be legal to give him the jump pack, right?

I forget how it's worded. Does the entry state "Entire unit may take jump packs" or "all space marines in the unit may take jump packs"? If the former, yes; if the later, no.

 EnTyme wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Serious question now.... Well, only half serious.

If you replace an assault marine with the Imperial Marine, it would technically be legal to give him the jump pack, right?

I forget how it's worded. Does the entry state "Entire unit may take jump packs" or "all space marines in the unit may take jump packs"? If the former, yes; if the later, no.

"The entire squad may take jump packs...Xpts/model"

So, yup.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, basically, he can be deployed in Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, and Devastator squads, seeing how all other units are veterans or have equipment included in their stats?

you can put him in a bike squad as well, and can he go in a chaos space marine squad then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Draccan wrote:
Outside of all the whining, what could this model proxy as if you have multiples?

I am thinking scout snipers due to the scope...

You?

sternguard veteran with combi bolter because its a bloody combi-weapon

 ionusx wrote:
you can put him in a bike squad as well...

Strictly speaking, no. He can replace a 'Space Marine', and a bike squad has 'Space Marine Bikers'.

 Ghaz wrote:
..., and a bike squad has 'Space Marine Bikers'.

...who are Space Marines...

That's why I said 'strictly speaking', as 'Space Marine' is a proper name given to basic marines in Tactical, Assault and Devastator Squads. If you're going with a less strict interpretation, then you could say he could replace a dreadnought or Marneus Calgar as they're both 'Space Marines' in a fluff sense.

Either of those would be fine by me...

 insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
..., and a bike squad has 'Space Marine Bikers'.

...who are Space Marines...

I wouldn't allow it. I would argue that in unit type you can't ignore "bikers" just because it says "space marines" in front, and also he can't take a bike. So have fun moving 6" with each bike

The unit type isn't relevant to determining who is an isn't a Space Marine.

 insaniak wrote:
The unit type isn't relevant to determining who is an isn't a Space Marine.

What page number is that

The same page as the statement that the number of oranges in your fruit bowl isn't relevant, probably.

Not sure what you're looking for there. You can't just make an unsupported claim and then demand a page number to disprove it. If you have seen something in the rules that would make the unit type relevant, please post it.

 insaniak wrote:
The unit type isn't relevant to determining who is an isn't a Space Marine.

True.

However, the model name for the Unit Profile and Composition IS significant, and "Space Marine Biker" does not equal "Space Marine". The former is used for the most common model in a Space Marine Bike Squad, while the latter is the most common model in Space Marine Tactical, Assault, and Devastator Squads.

A Space Marine given a Jump Pack as part of his Assault Squad upgrades changes from Infantry to Jump Infantry, but still remains a Space Marine. A Veteran upgraded to an Apothecary is still an Infantry model, but is no longer a Veteran.