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sirlynchmob wrote:
really, you're arguing and using a plural instead of singular?

it's one space marine, they used the singular version of the word. You can have many space marines in your army, more than one, plural. so you assume because they referred to two space marines, that some how extrapolates to the whole codex?

space marine = 1
space marines = 2 or more of the singular space marine.

Do you have an example where the space marines faction is referred to as "space marine" because this seems to be one of the few things that they're consistent with.

 insaniak wrote:
But they're all Space Marines.

In terms of Faction, yes. In terms of model, no. In other words, no more than an Apothecary or Company Champion is still a Veteran.

 Kriswall wrote:

"One Space Marine in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
vs.
"One Tau Empire in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."

Faction simply doesn't make sense in this context.

Faction doesn't, no.

However, if your example instead said "One Tau in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..." we would have a similar problem to the one we have with the Space Marine rule.

 insaniak wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

"One Space Marine in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
vs.
"One Tau Empire in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."

Faction simply doesn't make sense in this context.

Faction doesn't, no.

However, if your example instead said "One Tau in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..." we would have a similar problem to the one we have with the Space Marine rule.

I'll give you that, but I can't think of a single instance where a model is referred to by his "fluff race" from a rules perspective. Models are generally referred to by their name, faction or some other rules based signifier (e.g. Characters, Psykers, etc). We've established that Faction doesn't make sense. I don't think "fluff race" makes sense either sense it's not a normal rules concept.

Space Marines in particular muddy the issue because their "fluff race", Faction and model name can all be more or less the same... Space Marine, Space Marines, Space Marine. With a basic Tau Empire troop, you'd be looking at Tau, Tau Empire, Fire Warrior.

To continue that example, say GW releases an Imperial Fire Warrior model. Do you think the rules for him would say "One Tau in your army may be replaced..." or "One Fire Warrior in your army may be replaced..."? Total judgment call, but I think they'd use Fire Warrior because I think they're naming the model that can be replaced.

 Kriswall wrote:

I'll give you that, but I can't think of a single instance where a model is referred to by his "fluff race" from a rules perspective.

The obvious one that comes to mind is And They Shall Know No Fear. Before it was a USR, it was for a time just a blanket special rule that applied to 'Space Marines'.

To continue that example, say GW releases an Imperial Fire Warrior model. Do you think the rules for him would say "One Tau in your army may be replaced..." or "One Fire Warrior in your army may be replaced..."? Total judgment call, but I think they'd use Fire Warrior because I think they're naming the model that can be replaced.

I suspect that would depend on which Tau models they intended it to be able to replace.

 insaniak wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

I'll give you that, but I can't think of a single instance where a model is referred to by his "fluff race" from a rules perspective.

The obvious one that comes to mind is And They Shall Know No Fear. Before it was a USR, it was for a time just a blanket special rule that applied to 'Space Marines'.

That was the 5th edition codex. The concept of factions hadn't been formalized at that point.

That doesn't change the point, since my argument has nothing to do with Factions.

 insaniak wrote:
That doesn't change the point, since my argument has nothing to do with Factions.

Yet the only example you could come up with for GW using a "fluff race" in a rule was from at least two editions ago. It doesn't strengthen your argument.

 Kriswall wrote:
Yet the only example you could come up with for GW using a "fluff race" in a rule was from at least two editions ago. It doesn't strengthen your argument.

You said that you couldn't think of another instance of GW doing this. I provided one.

It shouldn't have actually been necessary anyway, since a rule being unique in no way makes it any less valid.



To be clear here, I'm not saying that GW clearly intended for you to be able to replace any space marine in the army with the special guy. I'm more on the 'it's unclear' side of the fence. I strongly suspect that the rules for this guy were scrawled down in someone's lunch break, and they didn't really put a lot of thought into them. Within that, it's possible that they meant for people to go by the profile line. It's also possible that the intended for you to be able to swap him in for any reasonably equivalently sized space marine, and just didn't bother specifically excluding things like bikers and dreadnoughts because, really, who would want to?

The former would limit him to Tactical and Devastator squads. The latter would allow you to replace Veterans or characters... and I can't see that doing so would be a particularly big deal.

text removed.

Reds8n

Oof. Your first para was going well..

But still, would you want to suck one?

Sigh. Thanks, 123ply, for showing the emotional maturity of an extremely offensive twelve year old.

Many of us debate on this rules forum because we like the debate... not because we're horrible people who are impossible to game with and nitpick every detail. In a real game situation, I imagine most of us would just say 'whatever works' or dice off and move on with the game.

I act as tournament organizer from time to time. This forum is a great exercise in 'having the argument' ahead of time, learning the peculiarities of both sides of an argument and being prepared to make a decision when something pops up.

In terms of the Imperial Space Marine, we have several options. Being told that "One Space Marine in your army can be replaced..." must either be referring to...

1. Any model with the name "Space Marine".
2. Any model chosen from Codex: Space Marines.
3. Any model who is considered to be a Space Marine from a fluff standpoint. This would include pretty much everything except Servitors, Fenrisian Wolves, etc. from Codexes Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights. Those books are chock full of Space Marines.

To me, #1 seems most likely as we're told that 'one X can be replaced with a Y". Y is the profile name of a specific model. It stands to reason that X is also the profile name of a specific model. Any other interpretation is going to be potentially valid, but less reasonable. Since this is ambiguous, we either wait for an FAQ or go with the most reasonable interpretation.

So this is like upgrading a space marine captain to a chaptermaster or whether we can have more than one dreadnought when we are told that the formation needs 1 dreadnought?

It's clear that there is no correct answer. I'd let them substitute a SM biker.

Naw wrote:
It's clear that there is no correct answer. I'd let them substitute a SM biker.

A foolish move. They would be anchored by the Imperial Space Marine or risk moving out of Coherency. Space Marine Bikers come with their Bikes and do not have them added on. The Imperial Space Marine does not have this option.

Assault Squads are a different discussion and closer to the discussion regarding Wolf Scouts and the Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
It's clear that there is no correct answer. I'd let them substitute a SM biker.

A foolish move. They would be anchored by the Imperial Space Marine or risk moving out of Coherency. Space Marine Bikers come with their Bikes and do not have them added on. The Imperial Space Marine does not have this option.

I would let them have the bike also

Naw wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
It's clear that there is no correct answer. I'd let them substitute a SM biker.

A foolish move. They would be anchored by the Imperial Space Marine or risk moving out of Coherency. Space Marine Bikers come with their Bikes and do not have them added on. The Imperial Space Marine does not have this option.

I would let them have the bike also

And then no one plays you. Gg no re

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
It's clear that there is no correct answer. I'd let them substitute a SM biker.

A foolish move. They would be anchored by the Imperial Space Marine or risk moving out of Coherency. Space Marine Bikers come with their Bikes and do not have them added on. The Imperial Space Marine does not have this option.

I would let them have the bike also

And then no one plays you. Gg no re

Letting someone have more options will cause people not to want to play against you?

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
It's clear that there is no correct answer. I'd let them substitute a SM biker.

A foolish move. They would be anchored by the Imperial Space Marine or risk moving out of Coherency. Space Marine Bikers come with their Bikes and do not have them added on. The Imperial Space Marine does not have this option.

I would let them have the bike also

And then no one plays you. Gg no re

Letting someone have more options will cause people not to want to play against you?

You let people do things with models when that model doesn't allow certain things to be done, such as take a bike?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
It's clear that there is no correct answer. I'd let them substitute a SM biker.

A foolish move. They would be anchored by the Imperial Space Marine or risk moving out of Coherency. Space Marine Bikers come with their Bikes and do not have them added on. The Imperial Space Marine does not have this option.

I would let them have the bike also

And then no one plays you. Gg no re

Letting someone have more options will cause people not to want to play against you?

You let people do things with models when that model doesn't allow certain things to be done, such as take a bike?[/quote
Exactly this. Same thing with jump packs. The Imperial Marine cam NOT take it, nor can Chaos Marine players legally take the Imperial Space Marine into their army ]

And exactly why can't the Imperial Space Marine take a jump pack?

 Ghaz wrote:
And exactly why can't the Imperial Space Marine take a jump pack?

Its not listed as a wargear option on his datasheet, nor are we given permissions to apply other wargear options to him.

In the case of applying unit wagear options to a replaced model (albiet a special case) with fixed wargear, again we have no permission.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And exactly why can't the Imperial Space Marine take a jump pack?

Its not listed as a wargear option on his datasheet, nor are we given permissions to apply other wargear options to him.

In the case of applying unit wagear options to a replaced model (albiet a special case) with fixed wargear, again we have no permission.

Conversely, where does it say that he can't take these options? Page and paragraph please.

 Ghaz wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And exactly why can't the Imperial Space Marine take a jump pack?

Its not listed as a wargear option on his datasheet, nor are we given permissions to apply other wargear options to him.

In the case of applying unit wagear options to a replaced model (albiet a special case) with fixed wargear, again we have no permission.

Conversely, where does it say that he can't take these options? Page and paragraph please.

I'm afraid the tiny rules pamplet with the miniature fails to note page numbers, nor any notable paragraphs. It does list all the wargear however.

So there is no rule that forbids him from taking an upgrade that applies to models in the unit he is placed in.

 Ghaz wrote:
So there is no rule that forbids him from taking an upgrade that applies to models in the unit he is placed in.

No, since you can't provide a rule and we can't provide a rule, the game stops until you become rational and realize that in his data slate he has no permission to take anything of the sort. He does not have any rule likewise stating he can take things from codex space marines. Your failure to do so and your only argument of "well.. It.. It doesn't say I can't do ha!" Is obviously a sign of really wanting to do something you can't. Gg no re

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
So there is no rule that forbids him from taking an upgrade that applies to models in the unit he is placed in.

No, since you can't provide a rule and we can't provide a rule, the game stops until you become rational and realize that in his data slate he has no permission to take anything of the sort. He does not have any rule likewise stating he can take things from codex space marines. Your failure to do so and your only argument of "well.. It.. It doesn't say I can't do ha!" Is obviously a sign of really wanting to do something you can't. Gg no re

Except I can provide a rule. From Codex Space Marines:

The entire squad may take jump packs…x pts/model

The Imperial Space Marine is a model in the squad and therefore eligible to take a jump pack. Now please provide a rule that says he's not a model in the squad.

 Ghaz wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
So there is no rule that forbids him from taking an upgrade that applies to models in the unit he is placed in.

No, since you can't provide a rule and we can't provide a rule, the game stops until you become rational and realize that in his data slate he has no permission to take anything of the sort. He does not have any rule likewise stating he can take things from codex space marines. Your failure to do so and your only argument of "well.. It.. It doesn't say I can't do ha!" Is obviously a sign of really wanting to do something you can't. Gg no re

Except I can provide a rule. From Codex Space Marines:

The entire squad may take jump packs…x pts/model

The Imperial Space Marine is a model in the squad and therefore eligible to take a jump pack. Now please provide a rule that says he's not a model in the squad.

Oh see now you are Chaning words agains he can replace a space marine not biker or assault marine sadly. And to humor your attempts and shinanigans I will say he can replace a biker or assault troop. He is only given permission to replace them, they come stock with the equipment. He is never given permission to purchase said equipment. And even if he was put in a troop that could purchase said equipments he is never yet again given permission to do so. Now please stop wasting our time and provide actual rules support your claim as to not look further like a fool. Gg no re = good game no rematch since obviously you are oblivious to the fact

 Ghaz wrote:

The entire squad may take jump packs…x pts/model

The Imperial Space Marine is a model in the squad and therefore eligible to take a jump pack. Now please provide a rule that says he's not a model in the squad.

This is legit. You have to take liberties with the sequencing, and go against the obvious intent (and defiling the frankly beautiful backpack the imperial space marine comes with :p)

The sequencing is wonky, but as you aren't told how you go about 'replacing' a model, it seems fine.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Oh see now you are Chaning words agains he can replace a space marine not biker or assault marine sadly. And to humor your attempts and shinanigans I will say he can replace a biker or assault troop. He is only given permission to replace them, they come stock with the equipment. He is never given permission to purchase said equipment. And even if he was put in a troop that could purchase said equipments he is never yet again given permission to do so. Now please stop wasting our time and provide actual rules support your claim as to not look further like a fool. Gg no re = good game no rematch since obviously you are oblivious to the fact

Perhaps you should actually read the Assault Squad entry in the codex before you make claims that you can't support with actual rules.