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Regarding the new psychic power 'magnetokinesis':

If I cast this on a vehicle, what speed will it be considered having moved for the purposes of:
- Number of weapons it can fire in the shooting phase?
- The effect on any passengers firing out of it?
- And could it still turbo boost or move flat out in the shooting phase?

Not sure if I'm allowed to post the full text of the rule but the bit in question is the part that states that "all models in the unit count as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase", but it fails to specify what this means for a vehicle which can only fire a certain number of weapons dependent on whether it moved Combat or Cruising Speed in the Movement phase.

The rest of the text almost reads as if it should say 'non-vehicle unit' but it does reference zooming...

Rubenite wrote:
Regarding the new psychic power 'magnetokinesis':

If I cast this on a vehicle, what speed will it be considered having moved for the purposes of:
- Number of weapons it can fire in the shooting phase?
- The effect on any passengers firing out of it?
- And could it still turbo boost or move flat out in the shooting phase?

It almost reads as if it should say 'non-vehicle unit' but it does reference zooming...

Why would the power affect the vehicles shooting?

The power does not mention any restrictions on shooting or flat out right?

I mean would it be considered being Stationary, Combat Speed or Cruising Speed? In the text of the psychic power it is described as "a move of up to 18". The text of the power also states that they "count as having moved"?

Rubenite wrote:
I mean would it be considered being Stationary, Combat Speed or Cruising Speed? In the text of the psychic power it is described as "a move of up to 18". The text of the power also states that they "count as having moved"?

which is funny when you consider that the tidewall rampart doesnt effect broadsides this way

Rubenite wrote:
I mean would it be considered being Stationary, Combat Speed or Cruising Speed? In the text of the psychic power it is described as "a move of up to 18". The text of the power also states that they "count as having moved"?

okay, they count as having moved in your psychic phase. so what?

How does that affect their shooting? how long does the count as having moved last?

Full text reads as "all models in the unit count as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase", but it fails to specify what this means for a vehicle which can only fire a certain number of weapons dependent on whether it moved Combat or Cruising Speed in the Movement phase.

Rubenite wrote:
Full text reads as "all models in the unit count as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase", but it fails to specify what this means for a vehicle which can only fire a certain number of weapons dependent on whether it moved Combat or Cruising Speed in the Movement phase.

RAW that rule does not restrict firing at all.

Counts as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase does not specify what turn it applies to, so we dont know how long it lasts. Also count as having moved is all well and good, but combat speed or cruising speed is what restricts weapons, not count as having moved because we don't know if it counts as Combat or Cruising speed, so we can not determine how the shooting is affected.

So talk about it with your group and come to some agreement about how you are going to play it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rubenite wrote:
Full text reads as "all models in the unit count as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase", but it fails to specify what this means for a vehicle which can only fire a certain number of weapons dependent on whether it moved Combat or Cruising Speed in the Movement phase.

RAW that rule does not restrict firing at all.

Counts as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase does not specify what turn it applies to, so we dont know how long it lasts. Also count as having moved is all well and good, but combat speed or cruising speed is what restricts weapons, not count as having moved because we don't know if it counts as Combat or Cruising speed, so we can not determine how the shooting is affected.

So talk about it with your group and come to some agreement about how you are going to play it.

Probably because there are other rules that cover this information?

1) As a Blessing, it would "last until the start of the Psyker’s next Psychic phase." So duration is covered.

2) Firing is determined by the Speed. Speed is defined by the distance moved. Vehicles in the Movement Phase states, "The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons, as described later." It then goes on to provide the definitions for all this.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rubenite wrote:
Full text reads as "all models in the unit count as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase", but it fails to specify what this means for a vehicle which can only fire a certain number of weapons dependent on whether it moved Combat or Cruising Speed in the Movement phase.

RAW that rule does not restrict firing at all.

Counts as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase does not specify what turn it applies to, so we dont know how long it lasts. Also count as having moved is all well and good, but combat speed or cruising speed is what restricts weapons, not count as having moved because we don't know if it counts as Combat or Cruising speed, so we can not determine how the shooting is affected.

So talk about it with your group and come to some agreement about how you are going to play it.

Probably because there are other rules that cover this information?

1) As a Blessing, it would "last until the start of the Psyker’s next Psychic phase." So duration is covered.

2) Firing is determined by the Speed. Speed is defined by the distance moved. Vehicles in the Movement Phase states, "The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons, as described later." It then goes on to provide the definitions for all this.

1) The blessing lasts, but I was talking about the duration of the movement. "count as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase" has no duration. Is it til the end of the turn, the end of the game, forever? it simply does not say.

2) Sure, but the vehicle did not move any distance in the movement phase, it counts as having moved though...

 DeathReaper wrote:
1) The blessing lasts, but I was talking about the duration of the movement. "count as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase" has no duration. Is it til the end of the turn, the end of the game, forever? it simply does not say.

How long does any movement have an effect? This is taking it a little too far. if you take it farther than the turn in question. Just because it went Cruising Speed last turn does not mean it affects this turn. So, too, the Movement in this Psychic Phase would not affect another Turn other than when it happened.

 DeathReaper wrote:
2) Sure, but the vehicle did not move any distance in the movement phase, it counts as having moved though...

And the rule I quoted did not restrict this definition to just the Movement Phase, just the title. And the "Vehicles In the Shooting Phase" only refers to the Speed classification.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
1) The blessing lasts, but I was talking about the duration of the movement. "count as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase" has no duration. Is it til the end of the turn, the end of the game, forever? it simply does not say.

How long does any movement have an effect? This is taking it a little too far. if you take it farther than the turn in question. Just because it went Cruising Speed last turn does not mean it affects this turn. So, too, the Movement in this Psychic Phase would not affect another Turn other than when it happened.

Okay so it does nothing if your opponent uses this power on your vehicle.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
1) The blessing lasts, but I was talking about the duration of the movement. "count as having moved in the Movement phase for the purposes of shooting weapons in the shooting phase" has no duration. Is it til the end of the turn, the end of the game, forever? it simply does not say.

How long does any movement have an effect? This is taking it a little too far. if you take it farther than the turn in question. Just because it went Cruising Speed last turn does not mean it affects this turn. So, too, the Movement in this Psychic Phase would not affect another Turn other than when it happened.

Okay so it does nothing if your opponent uses this power on your vehicle.

It's a blessing, so can't be used on enemy units

 jokerkd wrote:
It's a blessing, so can't be used on enemy units

I was thinking it targeted enemy units for some reason.

In that case, you would probably go by the distance moved for determining Combat/Cruising speed.

However, any vehicle travelling over 12 inches breaks the game.

I just noticed the same thing. typical gw oversight.

I'm left wondering though...... does it break the game? Or do you just lack permission to fire in the shooting phase?

The power says "counts as moved for the purposes of shooting" is really less ambiguous than it seems.

It forces infantry1 heavy weapons to snapshoot (unless overridden by unit special rules: ie relentless) and vehicles count as combat speed, because it doesn't specifically say otherwise. "Moved" is anything. Between 0-6 for standard infantry and vehicles. Anything more is "run" or "cruising/flat out".

 jokerkd wrote:
I just noticed the same thing. typical gw oversight.

I'm left wondering though...... does it break the game? Or do you just lack permission to fire in the shooting phase?

Why would you lack permission?

You can normally shoot if you have not moved.

Combat and cruising speed place restrictions on shooting. anything more than cruising speed does not.

Therefore If you move more than 12 inches, it is the same as being stationary.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
The power says "counts as moved for the purposes of shooting" is really less ambiguous than it seems.

vehicles count as combat speed, because it doesn't specifically say otherwise. "Moved" is anything. Between 0-6 for standard infantry and vehicles. Anything more is "run" or "cruising/flat out".

This is just not correct at all.

Please provide the rules that back up your claim of "vehicles count as combat speed" because I cant find that anywhere in the rules.

The permission to shoot if you have not moved is granted in the -moving and shooting with vehicles- section, which appears to contain the only permissions for shooting with vehicles

 jokerkd wrote:
The permission to shoot if you have not moved is granted in the -moving and shooting with vehicles- section, which appears to contain the only permissions for shooting with vehicles

Well not exactly. It gives you the rundown of vehicle movement and how that relates to shooting.

A vehicle is a unit, and you can nominate a unit to shoot in the shooting phase. the distance moved determines how many weapons a vehicle can fire.

All vehicles have the Relentless special rule, but that hardly says much about how many weapons a vehicle that has moved over 12 inches can fire.

Deleted for ignorance....

 doktor_g wrote:
I wouldnt think that it matters. Just like moving in Turn 2 doesnt effect firing in T3 except in maybe a handful of weird vehicles. What matters if the vehicle moves in its movement phase. Not your psychic phase.

But the rules regarding movement Speed only refer to the Phase in the title, not the actual rules themselves.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
I just noticed the same thing. typical gw oversight.

I'm left wondering though...... does it break the game? Or do you just lack permission to fire in the shooting phase?

Why would you lack permission?

You can normally shoot if you have not moved.

Combat and cruising speed place restrictions on shooting. anything more than cruising speed does not.

Therefore If you move more than 12 inches, it is the same as being stationary.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
The power says "counts as moved for the purposes of shooting" is really less ambiguous than it seems.

vehicles count as combat speed, because it doesn't specifically say otherwise. "Moved" is anything. Between 0-6 for standard infantry and vehicles. Anything more is "run" or "cruising/flat out".

This is just not correct at all.

Please provide the rules that back up your claim of "vehicles count as combat speed" because I cant find that anywhere in the rules.

The back up for that claim is that it does not specifically stated it moves at greater than combat speed. Therefore it does not. Precedence for that can be seen with the drop pod specifically stating it's movement speed on arrival. Deep Strike special rule, allowing a unit to move and shoot after arrival. Since it doesn't say you move greater than combat speed, You don't.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
The back up for that claim is that it does not specifically stated it moves at greater than combat speed. Therefore it does not.

Except Cruising speed is up to 12 inches. Anything more than that would be greater than that speed.

Precedence for that can be seen with the drop pod specifically stating it's movement speed on arrival. Deep Strike special rule, allowing a unit to move and shoot after arrival. Since it doesn't say you move greater than combat speed, You don't.

Except it does not say combat or cruising speed.

Therefore you go by the actual distance moved.

I realize it is dakka and everyone likes arguing for arguments sake.. (guilty as charged) but I think it is most likely the intent that if the vehicle is moved beyond 12" it is still treated as moving cruising speed, but further, you can probably come to some agreement with your peers that 12-18" your vehicle would be snap firing all of their weapons (if they had any left not doing so, ala 'fast' vehicles)

I would be happy for it to not shoot at all

I think bigger than "how many guns can I shoot" is: can my unit disembark from a transport that was moved using this power? And if it's an assault vehicle, can I then charge?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I think bigger than "how many guns can I shoot" is: can my unit disembark from a transport that was moved using this power? And if it's an assault vehicle, can I then charge?

The unit Disembarks in the Movement Phase. Remember that Disembarking is the action of the unit inside, and not an action of the Vehicle.

So, is the power directed at Vehicles or can it be used against non-Vehicle units? Does it state anything about Disembarking?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I think bigger than "how many guns can I shoot" is: can my unit disembark from a transport that was moved using this power? And if it's an assault vehicle, can I then charge?

How are you disembarking in the Shooting phase?
You either disembark in movement, vehicle moved, unit that go out is left behind, or you stay inside the vehicle, but then cannot disembark (barring getting wrecked...)

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I think bigger than "how many guns can I shoot" is: can my unit disembark from a transport that was moved using this power? And if it's an assault vehicle, can I then charge?

How are you disembarking in the Shooting phase?
You either disembark in movement, vehicle moved, unit that go out is left behind, or you stay inside the vehicle, but then cannot disembark (barring getting wrecked...)

The Psychic Phase is not the Shooting Phase any more...

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I think bigger than "how many guns can I shoot" is: can my unit disembark from a transport that was moved using this power? And if it's an assault vehicle, can I then charge?

How are you disembarking in the Shooting phase?
You either disembark in movement, vehicle moved, unit that go out is left behind, or you stay inside the vehicle, but then cannot disembark (barring getting wrecked...)

The Psychic Phase is not the Shooting Phase any more...

I think Nos's point was that the Movement phase, the phase in which someone has the ability to disembark troops out of a transport, has already happened. I think he was also implying that the Psychic phase has happened as well. Which would mean that the player was currently in the Shooting phase.

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I think bigger than "how many guns can I shoot" is: can my unit disembark from a transport that was moved using this power? And if it's an assault vehicle, can I then charge?

How are you disembarking in the Shooting phase?
You either disembark in movement, vehicle moved, unit that go out is left behind, or you stay inside the vehicle, but then cannot disembark (barring getting wrecked...)

The Psychic Phase is not the Shooting Phase any more...

I'm aware of that. I was asking where you gain permission to disembark at any time other than the movement phase (barring wrecked)