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 Kriswall wrote:

 IronMaster wrote:
If you're finding a good deal to buy models; do it. End of story.

This is how I feel. You just aren't allowed to complain about your local GW store or FLGS going out of business if you buy your stuff second hand or from an online discounter. By doing so, you're a contributing factor to local stores closing. If you're ok with that, awesome. Go crazy. If you want to make sure your local store sticks around, buy things from them.

...unless the store sells a lot of Magic the Gathering. Then it doesn't matter. The store will be around forever. (only half joking... MtG pays the rent at LOTS of stores)

Seriously. MtG players are like, half of what keeps my LGS open. Don't get me wrong, I buy stuff there when I can, but I also can't afford to drop $60 every Friday or my wife would murder me.

As long as you buy stuff from that store and don't make a fuss about your ebay purchases I don't think the manager will care.

 Kriswall wrote:

 IronMaster wrote:
If you're finding a good deal to buy models; do it. End of story.

This is how I feel. You just aren't allowed to complain about your local GW store or FLGS going out of business if you buy your stuff second hand or from an online discounter. By doing so, you're a contributing factor to local stores closing. If you're ok with that, awesome. Go crazy. If you want to make sure your local store sticks around, buy things from them.

...unless the store sells a lot of Magic the Gathering. Then it doesn't matter. The store will be around forever. (only half joking... MtG pays the rent at LOTS of stores)

I'm sorry, but the burden of success for a store doesn't rely on the paying customer, but on the store owner's ability to generate cash flow within the permanently shifting environment.

Seriously, I'll just repeat this : Consumers are not responsible for keeping store owners afloat nor do they have the duty to make them rich. Regardless of whether it is an independent store owner or a GW store.

Store owners aren't primarily your friends. They sell you stuff. You may or may not become good friends with them and go on a trip together to wherever or buy drinks, but the defining characteristic of that relationship is that they give you a product or service and you give them money in return.

It is true though that in some areas, if the majority of the customers at a store make a habit of buying online, the store could close. It's that simple.

If your store is doing great and rolling in it (thanks Magic) then maybe it doesn't make as big of a deal if you buy certain things online. However, you will probably get somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 percent off retail if you buy online (after shipping costs for new models). There are stores that will just GIVE you 20% off retail if you have them order something for you. Are those the stores that are struggling? No, but maybe if more of the regulars bought things from the store more often, then more stores could offer sales like that, if even only to their regulars

GreyCrow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 IronMaster wrote:
If you're finding a good deal to buy models; do it. End of story.

This is how I feel. You just aren't allowed to complain about your local GW store or FLGS going out of business if you buy your stuff second hand or from an online discounter. By doing so, you're a contributing factor to local stores closing. If you're ok with that, awesome. Go crazy. If you want to make sure your local store sticks around, buy things from them.

...unless the store sells a lot of Magic the Gathering. Then it doesn't matter. The store will be around forever. (only half joking... MtG pays the rent at LOTS of stores)

I'm sorry, but the burden of success for a store doesn't rely on the paying customer, but on the store owner's ability to generate cash flow within the permanently shifting environment.

Seriously, I'll just repeat this : Consumers are not responsible for keeping store owners afloat nor do they have the duty to make them rich. Regardless of whether it is an independent store owner or a GW store.

Store owners aren't primarily your friends. They sell you stuff. You may or may not become good friends with them and go on a trip together to wherever or buy drinks, but the defining characteristic of that relationship is that they give you a product or service and you give them money in return.

That's not what Kris said though, is it?

If you care about your local store being open, you should make an effort to support them.

If you don't care about your local store being open, then whatever, buy online at a discount that a physical store might not be able to sustain.

If you value your local store but don't buy from them, don't be surprised when they close down. Doesn't mean you're personally solely responsible for them closing down, but you're a contributing factor.

It's why I personally don't really care if a local store charges for use of the tables, I don't buy models frequently anyway and often what I buy isn't on the shelves of the local store, so I think it's fair for a store to charge for gaming space, or maybe include a rewards system for buying that lets you play there in addition to charging for gaming if you didn't buy your models there.

If gaming stores really do operate this way no wonder most cant stay open more then a few years.

If a store gives me a good product and a good deal, then I'll be more than happy to support it. If not and the owner is rude to me or is blatantly trying to squeeze me for money, he can't blame me for not being able to pay the bills. That's my view of "supporting your stores".

I know it's hard for hobby stores but it's a two-way streak, I'm not gonna pay their rent for the privilege of not being blamed when they do eventually go belly up. Similarly, I'll buy online if they can't give me something I need, like older vintage models. Not their fault, but neither is it my fault for not settling for the expensive plastic model when I like the discounted price of an old metal model and the aesthetic of the old sculpts.

On the specific subject of abusing the GW starter boxes: GW not only knows you're abusing that system but are also banking on it. When DV was released, everyone knew that at least half, if not a full 3/4ths, of the sales would be to veterans who just want cheap models.

lol, I split a Dark Vengeance kit with a one man store manager.

It does sound like GW needs to revise their sales model a bit. It's fairly dysfunctional to have a system where the local GW store has incentives to not have you order from GW's online store.

I remember buying a basilisk from a friend at my local games workshop. The owner scolded me but didn't care after a day or so. It must be fustrating but I say if you spent the majority of your cash at the place and have models not brought there then I see no issue.

They won't give a crap, because one way or another they got their money, if you show up into a store with all starter box models, they won't, at least the chill managers, won't say a word.

All their job is, is to make GW money, as long as you do them a solid and don't go saying just buy it off eBay, then you will be fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:
lol, I split a Dark Vengeance kit with a one man store manager.

looking at doing this myself with the chaos from dark vengeance see if can get a termi or black nights from all of the chaos bits from dark vengeance

 Backspacehacker wrote:
They won't give a crap, because one way or another they got their money, if you show up into a store with all starter box models, they won't, at least the chill managers, won't say a word.

All their job is, is to make GW money, as long as you do them a solid and don't go saying just buy it off eBay, then you will be fine

Except, as pointed out, this is not at all true. GW managers have sales quotas to meet or they get fired (and the store may be closed if the trend continues), and models purchased outside of their individual store (including models you buy at home from GW's website and have shipped to the store) do not count towards that quota. So no, they are not getting their money "one way or another".

Is this an incredibly stupid way of doing things? Of course it is. But that's how GW does it. Whether or not you care about this depends on how much you care about your local GW store. I personally don't care one bit, and would be happy to see it go out of business. But some people like their local GW stores for some odd reason.

Yeah, that's why I called it dysfunctional. From the perspective of GW as a whole, it should be perfectly fine for everyone to order from the website and pick it up at the store. From the perspective of the store manager, that apparently gets him fired.

Play at an independent retailer and they won't mind if you use coke cans for dreads. Your opponent might.

The GW store manager is not your buddy who hosts a place for you to play out of the kindness of his heart, but needs everyone to chip in and support him.
He is the manager of a shop that sells models for games, and people playing on his tables having fun is an excellent advertisement of what exactly that entails.

Who doesn't spam starter sets? Do you know how many Skaven I got from Isle of Blood kits? Ten quid for four rat ogres, seven quid for twenty clanrats?

Buy your models at the best price, every single time. Think of your money as your own business and it changes your perspective on buying over priced stuff to keep somebody else's business afloat
At your flgs buy some food or drink, I'd guess they make more profit on this anyway. Maybe the odd magazine or pot of paint
GW have been ripping people off for years, avoid their shops and their shady business practices at all costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm sorry that was harsher than I meant, GW's prices annoy me.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
They won't give a crap, because one way or another they got their money, if you show up into a store with all starter box models, they won't, at least the chill managers, won't say a word.

All their job is, is to make GW money, as long as you do them a solid and don't go saying just buy it off eBay, then you will be fine

Except, as pointed out, this is not at all true. GW managers have sales quotas to meet or they get fired (and the store may be closed if the trend continues), and models purchased outside of their individual store (including models you buy at home from GW's website and have shipped to the store) do not count towards that quota. So no, they are not getting their money "one way or another".

Is this an incredibly stupid way of doing things? Of course it is. But that's how GW does it. Whether or not you care about this depends on how much you care about your local GW store. I personally don't care one bit, and would be happy to see it go out of business. But some people like their local GW stores for some odd reason.

I have only had good interactions with my store, the guy who runs it is super chill.

Holds painting classes every week, we have golden demon painters even come in, so far i have met 3 2+ time winners. We run massive games, he throws pizza parties there. Even has a full set of paint he lets us all use to pretty much try before we buy kinda thing.

Really just depends on the owner, but i digress.

My experience is they dont really care, again my store owner is even fine with me swapping bits outta my dark vengeance box for people to buy me a set of termis or black knights really just depends how much of a stickler your manager is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Huron black heart wrote:
Buy your models at the best price, every single time. Think of your money as your own business and it changes your perspective on buying over priced stuff to keep somebody else's business afloat
At your flgs buy some food or drink, I'd guess they make more profit on this anyway. Maybe the odd magazine or pot of paint
GW have been ripping people off for years, avoid their shops and their shady business practices at all costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm sorry that was harsher than I meant, GW's prices annoy me.

I totally agree that GWs pricing is really really bad, but to shill for them, they have been getting better as of late.

The problem with GW shops is that they sell modeling stuff only. A FLGS won't mind as much where you got your models from as much due to MTG pretty much keeping most stores afloat these days. Most stores also sell some specialized family games like muchkin, role playing products, dice, pokemon, yu-gi-oh, card sleeves, drinks, snacks, and a variety of other miniature games from various companies. GW stores are a thing of the past. You can no longer just have a store that caters to one crowd.

@AllSeeingSkinks :

Kris said that players finding better deals is a contributing factor to the demise of the local hobby stores.

I was just saying that the hobby stores not being able to provide better offers is the main contributing factor. Consumers can't be blamed for the failings of some business models that failed to adapt and evolve to the changing expectations of the market

I know many store owners for hobby products, and there are 2 broad categories : some that accept they can be competed against and thus make sure they're on top of all the situations, and those that close because they can't be bothered to do things differently.

 Xerics wrote:
So would a GW store care if you used a GW Balrog for a Bloodthirster? Sure its not a bloodthirster model but it was still a GW product.

Store managers are individuals, but most probably wouldn't care. Its still a GW figure. And the Bloodthirster is a Balrog, just with a different name so that GW doesn't have to pay a licensing fee to Tolkien every time they sell a bloodthirster.

GW would actually care if you used Balrog as a Bloodthirster, but this is less due to their own business practices and more due to their contract agreement with Warner Brothers (which says the LotR line may not be mixed with any other GW line or use one model for the other). However this is one case where the stupid isn't their fault and is somewhat unrelated to this specific issue.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
GW would actually care if you used Balrog as a Bloodthirster, but this is less due to their own business practices and more due to their contract agreement with Warner Brothers (which says the LotR line may not be mixed with any other GW line or use one model for the other). However this is one case where the stupid isn't their fault and is somewhat unrelated to this specific issue.

Well rule of cool prevails over GW minding. Besides they aren't using it for any other GW game. I am. so they aren't at fault. If I were to go to a GW tournament I would understand but we all know those don't exist.

 Xerics wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
GW would actually care if you used Balrog as a Bloodthirster, but this is less due to their own business practices and more due to their contract agreement with Warner Brothers (which says the LotR line may not be mixed with any other GW line or use one model for the other). However this is one case where the stupid isn't their fault and is somewhat unrelated to this specific issue.

Well rule of cool prevails over GW minding. Besides they aren't using it for any other GW game. I am. so they aren't at fault. If I were to go to a GW tournament I would understand but we all know those don't exist.

Which can either be seen as a good or bad thing

GreyCrow wrote:
@AllSeeingSkinks :

Kris said that players finding better deals is a contributing factor to the demise of the local hobby stores.

I was just saying that the hobby stores not being able to provide better offers is the main contributing factor. Consumers can't be blamed for the failings of some business models that failed to adapt and evolve to the changing expectations of the market

I know many store owners for hobby products, and there are 2 broad categories : some that accept they can be competed against and thus make sure they're on top of all the situations, and those that close because they can't be bothered to do things differently.

Online stores provide Product X at, say, $70.
Local gaming stores provide Product X PLUS gaming tables, painting advice, convenience of immediate purchase, a community of gamers, etc at, say, $100.

They aren't competing just on price. Local gaming stores provide a higher value, so charge more. If you don't value the extras, you buy online. If you value the extras, you buy in store.

The main issue with deep discount online retailers is that the business model isn't long term viable ON ITS OWN. Most people get into these sorts of niche hobbies either by walking into a store randomly looking for something to do or by having a friend talk them into it. The single largest advantage that a local gaming store can provide to a gaming company is a community of gamers sustaining each other and bringing in new blood. If local gaming stores are muscled out due to pricing, there will be fewer people participating in the hobby with fewer "onboarding points" for new gamers. How many people who have never played Warmahordes and don't have any friends playing Warmahordes are surfing TheWarStore and think to themselves, "This game looks cool. I'm going to buy into it, talk my friends into buying into it and then set up a self sustaining community of gamers to support my ongoing playing of this game." Remember, without local gaming stores, there won't be nearly as many organized play events and there probably also won't be any way to "drop in and play a game". Think about every game you've ever played against someone you met in a gaming store. Those games all go away and you'll never have met those people.

This is what the gaming companies fear will happen in the long run. Deep discount online retailers cater to existing customers while doing NOTHING to bring in new customers. Lack of new clientele will kill any business over time as the existing customer base atrophies. Now, this won't happen today or tomorrow, but look around. Gaming stores are closing all the time and most are barely profitable due mainly to Magic the Gathering and maybe one or two other product lines.

Its why GW has a sensible policy of offering greater discounts to B&M stores. Online only stores have reduced overheads, and contribute less overall value to the hobby in terms of keeping it going, so get less of a discount.

It is absolutely stupid that stuff shipped to store doesnt count. If you order online, from the terminals IN STORE and pay in store (as it forces you to) , THEN it counts.

Good friend is a current , very long standing black shirt. Will be up at WHW for this weekends fun and games as well

I'll still stand by the practice of "Buy the good deal."

I completely understand wanting to support your FLGS, but at the same rate, the FLGS needs to know how to support itself. As a store owner, you need to know what works and what doesn't, and realistically what other items you're going to need to sell to meet your overhead. This won't necessarily help GW Stores, but that's a business model GW is going to have to fix; not us.

As was said previously, MtG saves a lot of stores. If your store doesn't want to sell Magic to help their overhead, then that's on the store.

I would honestly -never- take being scolded by a store manager for buying something for a better deal elsewhere. I, much like many others in this hobby, am an adult; and I won't be scolded for making smart business purchases.

If the store wishes to make tables pay-to-play, that can be understandable; but at the same time how much revenue are you actually generating in doing that in comparison to possibly angering players.

Successful business owners think intelligently and outside the box. They're not trying to put the circle peg in the square hole. If you want your business to flourish, you may need to branch out into other forms of the hobby/game world Specialty or Game Specific-Centric stores are going to have a harder go because you're banking on the populous supporting that specific game.

Stop blaming your customers if your business if failing. Pick yourself up and make some drastic outside-the-box thinking to make it successful. It's not going to be easy.

I buy from my FLGS, with the exception of direct-order only items, Limited Edition items, and Forge World. If I could get those at my FLGS, I would.

 IronMaster wrote:
I'll still stand by the practice of "Buy the good deal."

I completely understand wanting to support your FLGS, but at the same rate, the FLGS needs to know how to support itself. As a store owner, you need to know what works and what doesn't, and realistically what other items you're going to need to sell to meet your overhead. This won't necessarily help GW Stores, but that's a business model GW is going to have to fix; not us.

As was said previously, MtG saves a lot of stores. If your store doesn't want to sell Magic to help their overhead, then that's on the store.

I would honestly -never- take being scolded by a store manager for buying something for a better deal elsewhere. I, much like many others in this hobby, am an adult; and I won't be scolded for making smart business purchases.

If the store wishes to make tables pay-to-play, that can be understandable; but at the same time how much revenue are you actually generating in doing that in comparison to possibly angering players.

Successful business owners think intelligently and outside the box. They're not trying to put the circle peg in the square hole. If you want your business to flourish, you may need to branch out into other forms of the hobby/game world Specialty or Game Specific-Centric stores are going to have a harder go because you're banking on the populous supporting that specific game.

Stop blaming your customers if your business if failing. Pick yourself up and make some drastic outside-the-box thinking to make it successful. It's not going to be easy.

I don't think you understand how overhead works. There is a point where you just can't compete. Let's say an average retail store has an end of day profit margin of about 10%.

This means that if they sell a product for $100, they make $10. If the cost to order the item was $60, then there must also have been another $30 of random other expenses... shipping charges to get the product into the store, payroll charges to pay the guy who unloads the boxes, stocks the shelves, talks to customers, etc, rental charges for keeping the store location open, electric charges to keep the lights on, etc, etc. There are tons of expenses associated with selling a product in a store.

Now, let's say that an online retailer buys the same product for $60 and sells it for $80... a 20% reduction from MSRP. Can the gaming store compete? Of course not. They're effectively paying $90 for the product ($60 + $30 of misc extras). The lowest they can charge and still make a profit is $90.

Now, this example uses crazy made up numbers and is pretty simplified, but shows exactly why a local gaming store can't compete on pricing with an online store.

Selling a second, profitable product line (such as MtG) to support selling your primary product at a loss is bad business. In the above example, the gaming store could have a billion dollars in MtG profit per week and it still wouldn't want to charge below $90. $89 or lower is a flat loss and eats into overall store profitability.

All this just means that if more and more people start buying online at a discount, gaming stores will go out of business. Game companies don't want this to happen because it damages the ability to generate future business.

 Kriswall wrote:

 IronMaster wrote:
I'll still stand by the practice of "Buy the good deal."

I completely understand wanting to support your FLGS, but at the same rate, the FLGS needs to know how to support itself. As a store owner, you need to know what works and what doesn't, and realistically what other items you're going to need to sell to meet your overhead. This won't necessarily help GW Stores, but that's a business model GW is going to have to fix; not us.

As was said previously, MtG saves a lot of stores. If your store doesn't want to sell Magic to help their overhead, then that's on the store.

I would honestly -never- take being scolded by a store manager for buying something for a better deal elsewhere. I, much like many others in this hobby, am an adult; and I won't be scolded for making smart business purchases.

If the store wishes to make tables pay-to-play, that can be understandable; but at the same time how much revenue are you actually generating in doing that in comparison to possibly angering players.

Successful business owners think intelligently and outside the box. They're not trying to put the circle peg in the square hole. If you want your business to flourish, you may need to branch out into other forms of the hobby/game world Specialty or Game Specific-Centric stores are going to have a harder go because you're banking on the populous supporting that specific game.

Stop blaming your customers if your business if failing. Pick yourself up and make some drastic outside-the-box thinking to make it successful. It's not going to be easy.

I don't think you understand how overhead works. There is a point where you just can't compete. Let's say an average retail store has an end of day profit margin of about 10%.

This means that if they sell a product for $100, they make $10. If the cost to order the item was $60, then there must also have been another $30 of random other expenses... shipping charges to get the product into the store, payroll charges to pay the guy who unloads the boxes, stocks the shelves, talks to customers, etc, rental charges for keeping the store location open, electric charges to keep the lights on, etc, etc. There are tons of expenses associated with selling a product in a store.

Now, let's say that an online retailer buys the same product for $60 and sells it for $80... a 20% reduction from MSRP. Can the gaming store compete? Of course not. They're effectively paying $90 for the product ($60 + $30 of misc extras). The lowest they can charge and still make a profit is $90.

Now, this example uses crazy made up numbers and is pretty simplified, but shows exactly why a local gaming store can't compete on pricing with an online store.

Selling a second, profitable product line (such as MtG) to support selling your primary product at a loss is bad business. In the above example, the gaming store could have a billion dollars in MtG profit per week and it still wouldn't want to charge below $90. $89 or lower is a flat loss and eats into overall store profitability.

All this just means that if more and more people start buying online at a discount, gaming stores will go out of business. Game companies don't want this to happen because it damages the ability to generate future business.

I appreciate your consideration into this, but I still do disagree. And (going directly to the statement I bolded above) the practice of selling a higher profitable product line in conjunction to one's primary is actually an ongoing business practice. You have your key item that brings the person into the store. It's your "pull" item. In this case, your pull sustainable item is MtG. It's your money maker. Your GW Items you might be able to run discounts on every now and again to stay competitive even if it's not a great margin for you overall.

You sustain your business off your higher margin percentage items and give the customer the variety they'd like or the specialty items they're looking into a competitive price point. Being overly product-centric and focusing your business on essentially "shaming" your customers into buying from you isn't going to be a successful business practice.

Bank your extra profits by running more consistent events, campaigns, tutorials, and basic services (maybe a painting commission business line). And, as always, expand your product into multiple markets to draw money from different "nerd clique's" so to speak.

I see that as a better business model than customer-shaming or threats of "Well, if you don't buy from me, the store's going to close and you won't be able to play your game anymore." That's holding a customer hostage, not promoting a business opportunity.

You're missing my point.

If deep discount online retailers drive the market price of my example product to $90 or lower, there is zero point in the store ever bothering to stock it.

You also have retail backwards...

You drive people into the store with low profit or even negative profit "hook" products. There are often called "loss leaders". Then, once they're in the store, you hit them up with the more profitable products.

You absolutely don't pull people into a store with high profit items and then try to sell them stuff you don't make money on. That's crazy.