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The whole process of getting into Mierce stuff is incredibly arcane!

As well as the names issue and the 1970s style unnecessarily complex rulebook, you have the various issues involved in buying their stuff. You could back a KS and wait a year, but that hardly helps if the goal is to get people playing. Or you could go to their website and order there, but even on the regular website, there are several miniatures for sale with "No Image". If you are able to log in and thus get access to all the secret sections with former KS minis in, it feels like most of them have "No Image". So rather than the seller showing you a pic of the item they want to sell you, you have to trawl through the web in hopes that a fan might have an image of the mini on their personal page, or maybe trawl through old KS. Figuring out when such a mini might get shipped to you, and which of the various, equally Byzantine shipping options that you might or might not have to pay for depending on whether it's covered by Mierce's free shipping deal or not.... Well, let's just say that at this point I can't tell whether the various obfuscations are a bungled attempt to add mystery and therefore interest in the minis (come on, guys, you are selling boutique minis that are some of the best in the world... you don't need gimmicks!), or Mierce really are just completely disorganised and clueless when it comes to the day-to-day running-a-business-and-webstore stuff (if, geniuses when it comes to organising amazing artists and sculptors).

On the names front, I think the problem is specifically gaming with them. I had hoped Mierce might add a modifier (like, Ygggrwig Bloodtracker - then you can use the shorthand Bloodtracker, but still have the full name) to help folks actually be able to pronounce / refer to what a model is.

Another option, besides a modifier, is a translation. On the Mierce page, here's how they describe one of their popular monsters:

http://mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_nor_sfg_mbs_601_000

Mierce Miniatures wrote:Thus is Blood-Maw - Blód-munnr in the Norse tongue - as terrifying to the Skilfings as it is to their enemies...

I've referred to this model in-person more than any other, and the fact that there is a translation of the name plays a huge role in that!

It is Mierce's world and they should definitely stick with the naming system they like, especially for background/fluff/etc. But something like this is just too simple of a way for folks to actually be able to refer to models not to do it! I really hope they eventually give most of their models the same treatment as they did this one, so gamers can talk about them and game with them, too

chaos45 wrote:
I have a fair amount of the minis but would never buy the rule book.

Me and friends read some of the pdf rules when they were out and found them overly complex when most games are trying to simpler and easier for new players to understand.

Is sad that they are making very nice minis but have very little idea of how to do an effective rules system that might actually interest gamers into playing it.

Well, you just answered it - most other games are trying to be simpler. But there is always a market for very granular rules - Multi-Man Publishing sells out completely out of every print run of every supplement for Advanced Squad Leader - usually selling out through preorders alone. And it's all pretty damn expensive. And ASL is basically the most complex wargame on the market. Darklands is the ASL of miniatures gaming.

Yeah, pretty much.

There's almost no doubt that they'd benefit from a more WFB and/or simpler approach too though.

Or, having Wehrkind do that "Fan Edit" he threatened to do a while back!

Yay - Mierceday!

NEW KINDREDS:

Update #101

Feb 3 2017

Armoured Scecchus

After a break thanks to the Chrimbo holidays and sculptors taking time for themselves for a change, here's an update for Darklands: New Kindreds...

This week we have:

sculpt work in progress updates from Andrew May;
an updated list of sculptors and sculpts for this project;
...and anything else you can expect from us over the next few months.
Let us begin!

We've something for the Infernii this week, thanks to the ministrations of the indefatigable Andrew May...

It's been a while in coming but Armoured Scecchus is complete!





He should be a Wave 16 shipment.

Next up for Andrew is Jöllu (great axe and two axe versions), closely followed by Dairdubh...

MIGHTY MONSTERS:

Update #30

Feb 3 2017

Earth-Sea

We have another superb update for you regarding Darklands: Mighty Monsters on this fine Friday... creatures from the sea and creatures from the earth!

This week we have:

sculpt work in progress updates from Allan Carrasco and Bob Płociennik;
an updated list of sculptors and sculpts for this project;
a list of what ships, when;
...and anything else you can expect from us over the next few months.
Here we go...

Once more, this week we have something for the Conand realm of the Fomoraic thanks to the awesome talents of Bob Płociennik; but we now have something for the Érainn thanks to the even awesomer talents of Allan Carrasco...

Allan's work on the Bog Beast, Mórannach, was nothing short of sublime: so we're expecting great things from him on the Peat Beasts...

Gainn is the champion of the Beasts of Machairá Peat and he's looking great so far...





Here's a scale shot...



These guys will be a Wave 18 shipment; we do have to cast Gainn and send him back to Allan so he has something to work from however, so we'll see...


Whilst Gainn is being cast, Allan will be getting Crémharunc (the amazing earth beast!) sorted. It's very early days - just an armature - but as you can see, he's looking awesome...



Here's what he should look like when finished!



Last time around we showed you Encrusted Thuulac, mostly, so here's the original Thuulac thanks to Bob Płociennik!






Thuulac will be a Wave 18 (August) shipment (not Wave 17)!

Fresh from his amazing work on Thuulac, Bob Płociennik has begun sculpting the Nucránc Unit and they are, rather predictably, looking superb...

The first warrior to be done is Gonuu, and he looks very mean indeed...







Here's a scale shot... remember, these guys are on 80mm bases.



The Scuttling Nucránca should be a Wave 18 shipment!

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, pretty much.

There's almost no doubt that they'd benefit from a more WFB and/or simpler approach too though.

Or, having Wehrkind do that "Fan Edit" he threatened to do a while back!

I disagree 100%. There's already rulesets out there that you can easily use for Mierce models - Adv.ASOBAH, even AoS (my buddy uses his Sronax as Dragon Ogres in his Chaos AOS army)
Or, if you prefer the "more WFB" then, use 'em in WFB or Ninth Age or, obviously, Kings of War (as I have used many Mierce models in my KoW armies)

I rather like the density of Darklands... there's nothing else like it on the market. I don't think they'd benefit in the least bit by have a simpler WFB clone - witness Shieldwolf's WFB clone game that disappeared within a year because they embraced another WFB clone, Ninth Age. It'd just be another Ruleset Generica that no one played. Darklands is something special.

Please note that my preferred option is the Wehrkind Fan Edit.

The book needs...an editor.

And aren't you the one pushing for the Elegance of Simplicity Ruleset model?

So let me get this right. People are arguing that because their is a lot of simpler rulesets coming out this ruleset should be simpler? In other words meet a need that's already been met! Lol pitch fulfilling a need that's already been fulfilled several times over to an investor and see how that goes.

Yes, people have different opinions?

But again, the real 'problem' with the Darklands rulebook (if there really is one) is that it probably really needed an editor.

There is one, it's on my bookshelf right now. It's editing leaves much time be desired sure, but it's not hard to understand and it has a running faq.

Liking simple rulesets is an opinion. Claiming that the book would sell more copies if it was simpler can be proven false within reason.

You're arguing against something people aren't saying, DrNo (and I mean that sincerely / not as an insult). Look at the point of Alpharius' posts or most of the discussion last page - the problem is the layout / organization / editing, not the "crunchiness" (term used last page, not mine ) of the rules.

One example given was several differently named rules doing the same thing - Warmachine moved to remove this in their latest edition, for instance. No harm in as little constructive criticism, I think, better to get people taking about the rules and game than not!

I really love that Peat Beast size, hoping they turn out as awesome as the prior bigger one

"There's almost no doubt that they'd benefit from a more WFB and/or simpler approach too though."

I'm saying this is wrong from a business sense, unless I misinterpreted what he said. I'm saying it would not do better if the rules were simpler. I wholeheartedly agree that the book needed an editor, I suspect though that Mierce is woefully understaffed (based on my orders saying packing for over a month at a time sometimes), and I also suspect they spend the majority of their revenue on booking sculptors up in the foreseeable future out of fear that they will lose them. I still think spending a little on an editor would have been a good idea if not for having a better polished product which is important for leaving an impression on your customer. The index is almost entirely useless. Having said that the game is perfectly playable despite parts of the book being a mess.



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Honestly though I won't argue about it any more. It's pointless and derailing so I apologize for that. Yes book needs an editor bad, hopefully when ten years from now we get the Muster Book they will work on version 2.0 lol . Damn if the minis ain't sweet though I just recently finished building my Hrafnmann Jarl.

 RiTides wrote:
You're arguing against something people aren't saying, DrNo (and I mean that sincerely / not as an insult). Look at the point of Alpharius' posts or most of the discussion last page - the problem is the layout / organization / editing, not the "crunchiness" (term used last page, not mine ) of the rules.

One example given was several differently named rules doing the same thing - Warmachine moved to remove this in their latest edition, for instance. No harm in as little constructive criticism, I think, better to get people taking about the rules and game than not!

I really love that Peat Beast size, hoping they turn out as awesome as the prior bigger one

Yes, exactly!

Maybe this thread needs an editor - and me too!

I knew you'd love the Peatbeasts, RiTides!

Not to mention their much bigger brother - soon!

Egil Deadhand cares not for your PEATBEAST! Hehe, I love my Hrafn dudes. I'm actually running a demo day on March for at my local LGS, so will see how it goes. Will be using mostly the new quickstart rules though which are super super simple. Then will play a full game with my buddy so people can see what that looks like in action.

Very interesting pics of the Earth Beast and it`s predessesor! That thing will be massive! Still smaller, than a Mammoth though?


I like the looks of crabs, but their poses are really boring :(

The biggest problem with the Darklands rulebook isn't the rules- it's the lack of all the background and fluff that eventually will end up in another book entirely.

Also not enough new art to please the art elitist inside of me.

That giant mound of dirt with limbs is going to be massive. I might get one for my "Take back the land" clan of assorted earth elementals.

For Song of Blades and Heroes.

I sure as hell ain't playing any stinky human kindreds in Darklands.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
The biggest problem with the Darklands rulebook isn't the rules- it's the lack of all the background and fluff that eventually will end up in another book entirely.

I too was very miffed by this, the little that was in the main rulebook just made me really want more. But there's no telling when the Muster book will be released as they keep coming up with new units. They may need to just release the Muster rules with what units already exist in the musters now and make faction books or something for future ones at this point.

That's a nice enough birdman, but Alpharius is right, I'm all about the earth creatures . The skeleton for the big one is massive, and depending on how it turns out I might have to add it on!

Fingers crossed on Crémharunc - I already bought him, based on the artwork alone!

Mierce's track record of art to sculpt is usually really, really good.

I've only been let down by the 'human sized wolf men'.

Okay, I'll comment here...

Doug and DrNo have it right; I could easily (and I do mean easily) dumb Darklands down into an AoS clone. What is the point? It would just be another simple game in an industry stuffed with simple games, as if we're all too thick to play something complex. Sure, some people don't like complex games - that's up to them. But if you take the time and effort, Darklands is worth it (but then I would say that).

Darklands is game that rewards you every time you play, and I mean that sincerely: it makes you think about what you are doing, it is incredibly tactical, the battlefield is 360 degrees threat once flanking and scouting is used, it enables you to do pretty much anything in any order, it is as realistic as possible and it attempts to make the experience very smooth once the "golden rules" are in your head.

The rule book is not ideal, no rule book ever is, but neither is it the duffer some would have you believe. Frankly I think the attention span of many gamers these days is just not what it was when I first started playing wargames. That's not intended as an insult, just an observation. Perhaps Darklands is just not for some of you.

Once you get used to how the rule book is laid out it becomes a lot easier to read. It is a technical manual, not a story, and I defy anyone to tell me they learned how to play a game by reading the rule book and understanding the rules by rote first. You play, with a friend or using basic rules, then go back to the rule book, then play again, go back to the rule book, until it settles in your brain. The summaries enable you to play in a basic fashion, and if you need more detail, it's there. Hordes and Warmachine had me stumped for a long time until I worked out what they were getting at and I had played it a few times.

As well as that, the Quick Play Guide now gives you a very easy introduction as to how the game works; it's taken me way too long to get that done, for which I can only apologise, but it will be included with every starter host when they're released.

Lastly, I had one day - well, a working day, so about 6 hours - to get the index done before the printers had to have the final copy; and whilst I admit I should have got a replacement index done since then, very few people have bothered me about it (two, maybe?) and businesses are all about time management. We are indeed understaffed, but then any business could say that. All I can say is, a revised index is coming.

Cheers
Rob

Always good to hear from the creator!

I think most people are offering constructive criticism as they'd like to see the game grow.

I've always been a fan of 'more complex' vs 'simple for simplicity's sake', and it is certainly clear that you stick to your convictions!

Will the somewhat inscrutable names, dense rulebook and miniature availability/Kickstarter model limit the growth of the Darklands Game and 'Brand'?

Maybe?

GW blowing up WFB and creating AoS seems to have limited people's desire for 'counts as' stuff, so games these days seemingly have to "stand on their own" more now than before.

And Darklands certainly does stand apart and on its own!

Good to hear that an updated index is on the way too - that will help quite a bit!

I appreciate the post, thank you for reading and keeping an eye on things here!

However, as DrNo already acknowledged above, if what you got from the discussion last page is that folks want Darklands to be like AoS, you missed the point of the constructive criticism.

I'll poke Wehrkind to elaborate further on some specifics. He's the person who can grasp complex rulesets faster than anyone I have ever met - for example, I always stick to a handful so I can learn them well enough, and he's constantly learning new ones for "fun" . He was rewriting a custom fantasy ruleset for the longest time, as well, and we've played the same games against one another for years. So it's not that he's jumping between games, he just has the brain for them! He's also a professor of economics, for what that's worth

I say all that just to explain that some of the feedback you're getting is from people who really could give good insight for future rule editions and the like. I hope you'll consider it and not just think it's from people with short attention spans - indeed, I don't think that can be true of most Darklands fans, the world is like an onion with hidden layers that you can only get to by paying close attention! I think "crunchy" rules fit that perfectly - but there's always room to improve, too

Cheers again for reading!

I've definitely enjoyed complex rulesets in the past, and still do on occasion (Rogue Stars and Infinity being two recent ones that spring to mind and that are close to the top of my list of preferred wargames).

However, I think the market has changed considerably in the past 30-odd years, as has best practice game design, and both of these things are for the better.

Part of the reason that miniatures wargames have a big, healthy worldwide market right now is that they are no longer seen as the sole preserve of computer programmers, engineers, historians, and professors of economics. That definitely doesn't mean that there is no market for a complex game, and of course a big overall market can mean quite the opposite -- that there's room for more niche rulesets. But, the more technical manual style of ruleset very much came out of the era when wargames were overall a much more niche hobby. Make a rulebook that looks like the manuals your target market reads for work, and you make those people happy but you also create a second barrier to entry *in addition to* the complexity of the ruleset, for anyone who isn't an engineer, programmer, or grognard.

In terms of game design best practice, the leading edge in non-digital games, whether it's the best of the miniatures wargames, RPGs, non-miniatures wargames, or anything else, is at least somewhat influenced by the rise and rise in Eurogames over the past twenty-odd years. That, too, is where you'll find another huge potential market for complex games. It's just that most of the complexity in most of those games comes from finely finessed playtesting of a relatively simple ruleset that has a hugely complex strategic web of interactions and syntheses.

And then you have the whole issue of whether it's worth selling your rules or you should give them away free. These days I'm more and more inclined to the latter perspective, even for tabletop RPGs where you don't have the core game primarily being there to drive sales of your miniatures. I think for niche rulesets there's even more reason to do that.

I was hoping to try out the QS ruleset but haven't persuaded my most regular opponent (my teenage son) to give it a shot yet. He prefers KoW. And that's another way the market has changed in the past 30-odd years: a lot of us grognards are as likely to play with our families now as at a club or shop. A game that supports that, but that has the kind of strategic depth to satisfy the grognards too... is going to look even more like a Euro. So, I think that's the optimal starting point. For 2nd edition, like. Maybe hire Eric D. Lang to write it. That guy absolutely combines the best of old school game design with the best of Eurogame design, and he's not done a bad game yet, and it's pretty clear he digs Northern European mythology...

Mierce Miniatures wrote:
Okay, I'll comment here...

Doug and DrNo have it right; I could easily (and I do mean easily) dumb Darklands down into an AoS clone. What is the point? It would just be another simple game in an industry stuffed with simple games, as if we're all too thick to play something complex. Sure, some people don't like complex games - that's up to them. But if you take the time and effort, Darklands is worth it (but then I would say that).

Darklands is game that rewards you every time you play, and I mean that sincerely: it makes you think about what you are doing, it is incredibly tactical, the battlefield is 360 degrees threat once flanking and scouting is used, it enables you to do pretty much anything in any order, it is as realistic as possible and it attempts to make the experience very smooth once the "golden rules" are in your head.

The rule book is not ideal, no rule book ever is, but neither is it the duffer some would have you believe. Frankly I think the attention span of many gamers these days is just not what it was when I first started playing wargames. That's not intended as an insult, just an observation. Perhaps Darklands is just not for some of you.

Once you get used to how the rule book is laid out it becomes a lot easier to read. It is a technical manual, not a story, and I defy anyone to tell me they learned how to play a game by reading the rule book and understanding the rules by rote first. You play, with a friend or using basic rules, then go back to the rule book, then play again, go back to the rule book, until it settles in your brain. The summaries enable you to play in a basic fashion, and if you need more detail, it's there. Hordes and Warmachine had me stumped for a long time until I worked out what they were getting at and I had played it a few times.

As well as that, the Quick Play Guide now gives you a very easy introduction as to how the game works; it's taken me way too long to get that done, for which I can only apologise, but it will be included with every starter host when they're released.

Lastly, I had one day - well, a working day, so about 6 hours - to get the index done before the printers had to have the final copy; and whilst I admit I should have got a replacement index done since then, very few people have bothered me about it (two, maybe?) and businesses are all about time management. We are indeed understaffed, but then any business could say that. All I can say is, a revised index is coming.

Cheers
Rob

Great to hear from you Rob. I think anyone who has played a hex a day counter wargame would appreciate the case format you wrote the book in. For what it's worth it think the book is beautiful despite some of the messy parts, like the index. And as I said earlier I know you keep a running FAQ on the forum every question I've ever had has already been answered there. I also feel like there was a lot of pressure from consumers to get the book out there. That's why I'm honestly glad ya'll have stuck to delaying the muster book. I'd rather have one book them several faction books, again though I'm sure the pressure is there to release it.

I think Doug made a apt comparison with ASL. ASL can look very daunting at first but once you get the hang of it you realize it's elegance and also realize many of the rules aren't in use all the time. I.E. gaze. That's when case format comes in handy because it's easy to reference what you need. I've found Darklands to be the same as ASL.

Hopefully March 4th goes well and my lgs Battlegrounds will be setting up a distribution account with ya'll.


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PS. Honestly I don't even expect an index from most European rulesets lol. It's like you English guys don't like them.

 Alpharius wrote:
Will the somewhat inscrutable names, dense rulebook and miniature availability/Kickstarter model limit the growth of the Darklands Game and 'Brand'?

Maybe?

I've no idea, but don't expect that to change! I refuse to dumb it down, because to do so would ensure it loses a lot of its character and it wouldn't be from the heart. I'd be making something I have no interest in making, and that's a dodgy road. I have no desire to make Mierce a multi-million pound company with bazillions of staff. All I want for Darklands is that its devotees enjoy it and want more, and grow it slowly. It took ten years for Hordes and Warmachine to really take hold; Darklands hasn't even been out for a year.

As for miniature availability, sometimes this is totally out of my control (certainly is for the metals); I could throw money at it, but that would be counter-productive in the long run. Regardless, we've created nearly a thousand miniatures over five years, of which around half are available on the webstore in various ways and means. That's a lot of miniatures.

Cheers
Rob


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
And then you have the whole issue of whether it's worth selling your rules or you should give them away free. These days I'm more and more inclined to the latter perspective, even for tabletop RPGs where you don't have the core game primarily being there to drive sales of your miniatures. I think for niche rulesets there's even more reason to do that.

Mierce, as a company, cannot afford to do so I'm afraid. The QPG is free; that's available now. If you're interested in the game after that, buy the rule book. If you baulk at the cost of the rule book, you'll definitely baulk at the cost of the miniatures anyway. Ask yourself another question: how many rule books / codices have you bought in the past? Is it really too much to ask that you purchase a rule book, once?

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
For 2nd edition, like. Maybe hire Eric D. Lang to write it. That guy absolutely combines the best of old school game design with the best of Eurogame design, and he's not done a bad game yet, and it's pretty clear he digs Northern European mythology...

I won't be hiring anybody else to write it because a) that costs money and b) I'm very happy with the rules. If there is a second edition, certain things will change, certainly in terms of indices and layout, but those will be my decisions!

Frankly, if I turned it into a much simpler game, there'll still be excuses as to why it's not played. The fact is that the popular games - AoS, H&W, KoW - have a community built from many years and many people.

Look, all defensiveness aside, Darklands is my baby, its rules are my rules, it's all been in my head for years and if I hand it over to someone else I may as well give up Mierce and dig ditches for a living. I think it's perfectly understandable once you start playing and refer back to it (index aside) but you're all approaching this in the wrong way in my view: the rule book is a technical manual, not a novel that is easy to read, and again, the QPG gives you a great start, the summaries explain everything and the videos (eventually) will run through everything.

How many of you commenters here have actually played the game? Doug and DrNo clearly have. If you haven't played it, do so - use the QPG first. If you don't like it after that, no problem! Darklands isn't for everyone.

Cheers
Rob

Fair enough!

I'm a fan, and will remain so!

As noted above, it feels as if the 'game scene' is changing a bit - especially in the US.

I've no problem with taking on the role of Game Evangelist.

I'm already going to have to do it for Dark Age and possibly INFINITY too in my area - I've no problem adding Darklands to that list, especially as the miniatures practically sell themselves anyway!

I would like names that are easier to pronounce.

We've been over this many times - Rob's not going to budge on that one, and I don't think he needs to, or should.

I like the instant flavor and sense of setting many of the names give.

In the musters (lists), there's a pronunciation guide for almost everything too.

Best case scenario is we'll get something similar to what RiTides commented on above for the 'harder' names to pronounce.

After all, Blód-munnr is known as the Blood Maw to most!

Yeah, it'd be the best of both worlds, honestly! The Blood Maw works so well exactly because it has both a common name / nickname and an awesome historical one

The great thing about Darklands is it encourages you to learn, which is why I'm really looking forward to the savage hordes book!