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So hold on, many people have bad memories of this book because most of their opponents were cheating scumbags? I suppose the book did need a law degree to decipher, much like the WHFB Hordes and Beasts of Chaos...

The short version is:

It was like if Slaanesh gave you a happy ending with no strings attached.

Long version:

There was a hell of a lot of things that made the CSM 3.5 dex awesome, namely because of legion rules making you actually capable of fielding 9 completely different armies with 1 book while every other book required a supplement of some kind to get some variations (if you owned the Craftworld Codex and Codex: eldar you got maybe 6-7 types of armies. Chaos still beat it by 2). Part of this was due to the combination of FoC shenanigans AND veteran skills, effectively allowing chaos to both create units that other armies can only dream of (imagine infiltrating raptors armed with melta guns and lightning claws).

There were a few builds that were heinously overpowered, and this is coming from the guy who used them! Iron Warriors was pants-shittingly terrifying to face since they can bring heavy support tanks (in a time when only IG had access to vehicle squadrons) backed by 9 obliterators. With cover saves being a lot less abundant (you instead had to test for target priority, which Chaos didn't give half a crap about because our Leadership was high enough to consistently pass) you basically murdered enemies left and right with impunity. Word Bearers got in on this too, by being able to summon daemons which, if you had the right number, instantly popped into existence without scatter or reserve rolls. And the daemons could charge out of combat!

Speaking of Daemons, they were pretty powerful here too. Almost half the points they cost now, some of them were unreasonable in how powerful they are. Bloodletters had 3+ armor saves and AP2 power weapons backed by Strength 5 (remember, they can charge out of deepstrike!) and otherwise had the stats of Space Marines, Daemonettes had insane amount of rending attacks (that rend on To Hit rather than To Wound) and Plaguebearers would just. not. die.

Then there were the books of chaos, highlights include the Berserker Glaive (which granted a 4++ AND the possibility of 12 attacks on the charge to any character), 2-wound Thousand Son Rubric Marines. Sonic Dreadnoughts, combat drugs, etc.... You also got a free champion if your squad numbered the same as your god's favourite number. And Chainaxes, which made terminator armor cry at the paltry cost of 1 point per model.

Vehicles joined in the fun as well, with Mutated hull making certain vehicles being stronger than they have any right to be (it gave +1 to every AV) and Parasitic Possession making vehicles impossible to put down (regen a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized result on a 4+) and, of course, daemonic possession. toss all three of those on a predator or a vindicator and watch as your opponent freak out when he realizes how little crap your tanks give to lascannons and melta guns at point blank range.

and finally, the most infamous of all the broken units in the codex: the daemon prince. While limited to just a single one per army, the Daemon Prince is a god compared to what we have now. You could give it eternal warrior, improve every single one of it's stats by 1 if you could pay for it, give it daemon weapons (one of which let it ignore ALL saves, including invul saves), make it fly, give it a 2+ armor with a 4++ (back when most were thankful for a consistent 5++ and the storm shield wasn't a 3++) and it could jump between combat. Oh and psychic powers, because Psychic powers (the tzeentch one was worse since it could auto-pass psychic tests if i remember).

It was basically the Codex: Wraithknight of the time, only held back because Fish of Fury was a thing at the same time.

To a point. Some of the complaints are legitimate:

- Iron Warriors really were horrible. You would typically see 4 artillery pieces, 3 units of Obliterators, and then Las/Plas troops. However there was only ever 1 Basilisk and/or Vindicator. Originally those Obliterators were naturally T5 but this was later errata'd down to T4(5).
- Daemon Bombs were never a 100% guarantee to work, but they were still extremely reliable with a bit of investment and almost impossible to stop if they had Turn 1 or deployed out of sight.
- Infiltrate and Daemonic Speed allowed Turn 1 Assaults.

On the other hand, the other Legions never raised an eyebrow. I was a player back in those days and happily remember the discussions about Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Word Bearers being flavour sets and not anything to take to a tournament. In fact I don't think Thousand Sons have ever had a competitive build, literally, in any edition.

Honestly, it peaked my interest so I downloaded it and took a look.
Never understood the appeal. Other than a shopping list of options that you mixed with punity (obvious road to minmax) , nothing screamed fluff or awesome at me. It looks messy, clunky, and screams abuse.
I honestly prefer the current book. (not that it's any good)

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
"muh 4 vindicators".

Every. Bloody. Time.

CSM 3.5 codex was OP... because hearsay

to give flavour, you should not only give bonuses, but limitations as well. Problem being, the executives are scared by 0-1 and limitations because is supposed to scare people into buying less puppets.

Except you could only have one.

I think that was his point; 3.5 was "OP" because of all these tall tales of 4 Vindicators, when you couldn't even do that. But people are convinced that's what made the 3.5 dex smelly cheese.

Mozzamanx wrote:
It's an example of 3.5 being wonderful in theory but needing polish around the edges; nothing ever said that you rerolled Minor Powers if you got duplicates.
There was never a guarantee of knowing Siren, players simply had to invest as many points as they felt comfortable with to get some kind of likelihood.

All duplicates except rolls of a 1 were rerolled. I have the codex in front of me. With 6 rolls you were all but guaranteed to get it barring a spate of 1's being rolled.

FWIW, Tzeentch got to re-roll all duplicates. Because Tzeentch.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Honestly, it peaked my interest so I downloaded it and took a look.
Never understood the appeal. Other than a shopping list of options that you mixed with punity (obvious road to minmax) , nothing screamed fluff or awesome at me. It looks messy, clunky, and screams abuse.
I honestly prefer the current book. (not that it's any good)

You also have to put it in context of the time...*all* the books of that era were messy and prone to min/maxing. Every Marine army of the era was 5 man Las/Plas for example.

Read the actual fluff of the book however (way better than the current book) and then see how much better tou could actually represent it with the options given. Yes it very obviously had problems, but had some great stuff too.

 welshhoppo wrote:
So hold on, many people have bad memories of this book because most of their opponents were cheating scumbags? I suppose the book did need a law degree to decipher, much like the WHFB Hordes and Beasts of Chaos...

I have bad memories of it because it allowed you to be 'that guy', like the hated codex/lists of today... I don't know where people get the vindicators thing but still Iron Warriors were the 'beardy' army then. I played a lot of tournaments in 3rd. I really think it was too much variety to manage in a balanced way... the problem is GW went WAY TOO FAR in the opposite direction and neutered CSM entirely.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
"muh 4 vindicators".

Every. Bloody. Time.

CSM 3.5 codex was OP... because hearsay

to give flavour, you should not only give bonuses, but limitations as well. Problem being, the executives are scared by 0-1 and limitations because is supposed to scare people into buying less puppets.

Except you could only have one.

That was my point. This is something I found In an Italian forum as well, recently. Complains about 4 basilisks or something - clear sign that they either played against a cheater, or complained just for hearsay.

As WayneTheGameMade said

And Boomwolf - you just did not peaked enough. And: have a look to the chaos codex just before and just after the 3.5 for comparison.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


and finally, the most infamous of all the broken units in the codex: the daemon prince. While limited to just a single one per army, the Daemon Prince is a god compared to what we have now. You could give it eternal warrior, improve every single one of it's stats by 1 if you could pay for it, give it daemon weapons (one of which let it ignore ALL saves, including invul saves), make it fly, give it a 2+ armor with a 4++ (back when most were thankful for a consistent 5++ and the storm shield wasn't a 3++) and it could jump between combat. Oh and psychic powers, because Psychic powers (the tzeentch one was worse since it could auto-pass psychic tests if i remember).

The daemon prince was way better but you could only get 100 points of daemonic gifts for it. That was enough to make it good, certainly, but it couldn't do everything all at once. The most popular thing was definitely giving it Daemonic Stature to turn it into a monstrous creature and thus ignore armour saves and the Dreadaxe, which specifically only ignored invulnerable saves by itself. Add in some defences and a trick or two and you got yourself a HQ choice.

Units could be hugely customised, too, but you paid for it in points. You could upgrade all your Chosen to champion status and then buy further things from the armoury, you just had to spend a decent chunk of your army allowance on doing so. Chosen with the Mark of Tzeentch all had access to psychic powers but they also had to pay for them and weren't much tougher than any other regular marine. T4 W1 with a 3+ save may be reasonably tough for a 14 point model but it's less impressive on something that costs between 42 and 57 points.

The codex was very dramatic, just not always in a useful way. But that's why people remember it so fondly. It really stood out in letting you concoct ridiculous expensive units and custom warbands. It truly delivered on expressing the character of the army.




The book needed way more editing and proofreading, though. That's also part of why people were so disappointed with the follow-up codex. The 3.5 book needed a clearer structure and for IW, Siren and daemonbombing to be tweaked. Instead everything got thrown out. All the work was simply trashed. Daemons themselves were ripped out to be made into a separate codex for who knows what reason. Little needed to be done and little was what we got. Heh.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


and finally, the most infamous of all the broken units in the codex: the daemon prince. While limited to just a single one per army, the Daemon Prince is a god compared to what we have now. You could give it eternal warrior, improve every single one of it's stats by 1 if you could pay for it, give it daemon weapons (one of which let it ignore ALL saves, including invul saves), make it fly, give it a 2+ armor with a 4++ (back when most were thankful for a consistent 5++ and the storm shield wasn't a 3++) and it could jump between combat. Oh and psychic powers, because Psychic powers (the tzeentch one was worse since it could auto-pass psychic tests if i remember).

The daemon prince was way better but you could only get 100 points of daemonic gifts for it. That was enough to make it good, certainly, but it couldn't do everything all at once. The most popular thing was definitely giving it Daemonic Stature to turn it into a monstrous creature and thus ignore armour saves and the Dreadaxe, which specifically only ignored invulnerable saves by itself. Add in some defences and a trick or two and you got yourself a HQ choice.

Units could be hugely customised, too, but you paid for it in points. You could upgrade all your Chosen to champion status and then buy further things from the armoury, you just had to spend a decent chunk of your army allowance on doing so. Chosen with the Mark of Tzeentch all had access to psychic powers but they also had to pay for them and weren't much tougher than any other regular marine. T4 W1 with a 3+ save may be reasonably tough for a 14 point model but it's less impressive on something that costs between 42 and 57 points.

The codex was very dramatic, just not always in a useful way. But that's why people remember it so fondly. It really stood out in letting you concoct ridiculous expensive units and custom warbands. It truly delivered on expressing the character of the army.

The Chosen unit in question just needed some meat shields. Well, 160 of them to be precise (if you took a full unit of 20 all with 3 Thralls, 4 Hounds and a Spawn each).

TL;DR: The Codex was essentially Space Marines + 1

It had its flaws, but it's easily one of the best codices (if not *the* best codex) GW has ever released. Haines really put soul and effort into it, and it showed.

With some polishing the 4th ed. codex could have been simply perfect... instead Thorpe and Cavatore pretty much murdered CSM.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
So hold on, many people have bad memories of this book because most of their opponents were cheating scumbags? I suppose the book did need a law degree to decipher, much like the WHFB Hordes and Beasts of Chaos...

I have bad memories of it because it allowed you to be 'that guy', like the hated codex/lists of today... I don't know where people get the vindicators thing but still Iron Warriors were the 'beardy' army then. I played a lot of tournaments in 3rd. I really think it was too much variety to manage in a balanced way... the problem is GW went WAY TOO FAR in the opposite direction and neutered CSM entirely.

And to re-iterate, once more.

This codex existed in the same timescale as...

Alaitoc Pathfinder Table spam.
Saim Han Starcannon Spam.
Ultwhe Seer Council Doomblobs.
Eternal Warrior Nidzilla.
Tau Fish of Fury.
Space Marine Traitmaxing.

Stop trying to put across that CSM were the only offenders. Yes, Siren, Bike Daemonbombs and IWs were frustrating. Just like SM Bikestars. Just like Seer Council Doomblobs. Just like Fish of Fury. Just like Nidzilla.

I love how people conveniently forget what else existed at the time.

You want the weakest books of the time? Orks and Dark Eldar. IG got a 3.5 book shortly after with rerolling 1s to hit on everyone as an option.

Darkstar, not only that, but you had very frequently alternate army lists for many armies for free in the WD.

You wanted to make a Tau Kroot mercenary lists?, yup we've got that for you, with each units that could have different genetic heritage because of their cannibalistic habits.

Wanted to have a full Mycetic assault Pod Nids lists? yup we've got that in store.

IG armoured Co?, no problems.

Eldar craftworlds with a list for each craftworld with their specific rules?, got that right there chap!

21st founding Chapters?, yup definatly, with some tutos to convert them.

Ork Speedfreaks Cultz and other Klanz.

CSM was not the only ones to have a large amount of options and lists, they had the most of the lot, but they where not alone.

3rd/4th Ed was the Edition where there was a wider selection of lists, now we have supplements, but they still are pale compared to the Chapter Approved lists.( wich was also free most of the time).

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
So hold on, many people have bad memories of this book because most of their opponents were cheating scumbags? I suppose the book did need a law degree to decipher, much like the WHFB Hordes and Beasts of Chaos...

I have bad memories of it because it allowed you to be 'that guy', like the hated codex/lists of today... I don't know where people get the vindicators thing but still Iron Warriors were the 'beardy' army then. I played a lot of tournaments in 3rd. I really think it was too much variety to manage in a balanced way... the problem is GW went WAY TOO FAR in the opposite direction and neutered CSM entirely.

And to re-iterate, once more.

This codex existed in the same timescale as...

Alaitoc Pathfinder Table spam.
Saim Han Starcannon Spam.
Ultwhe Seer Council Doomblobs.
Eternal Warrior Nidzilla.
Tau Fish of Fury.
Space Marine Traitmaxing.

Stop trying to put across that CSM were the only offenders. Yes, Siren, Bike Daemonbombs and IWs were frustrating. Just like SM Bikestars. Just like Seer Council Doomblobs. Just like Fish of Fury. Just like Nidzilla.

I love how people conveniently forget what else existed at the time.

You want the weakest books of the time? Orks and Dark Eldar. IG got a 3.5 book shortly after with rerolling 1s to hit on everyone as an option.

I think it might predate Fish of Fury, but not by much. I stopped playing around then. 3x Wraithlords and Starcannon spam ruled the day. Power Armor? Not against AP3, 3-shot starcannons in 5-man guardian squads. Choppas that dropped your save to 4+. Rhino Rush that could assault Turn 1 (Blood Angels with supercharged engines). Ulthwe seer council with tons of Warlocks (and Starcannon spam). "Mauleed Marines" 6-man Las/Plas squads as far as the eye can see.

3.5 CSM was not overpowered beyond maybe a handful of things that needed minor tweaks. It was incredibly fluffy though.

Mozzamanx wrote:
In fact I don't think Thousand Sons have ever had a competitive build, literally, in any edition.

IIRC, they had a lot going for them.

But seriously, there was a Rhino rush build that relied on 1ksons tanking wounds for power fist sorcerers (in those days non-ICs couldn't be picked out in combat) with the Gift of Chaos psychic power employed to pick out enemy characters (the power could target specific models and turn them into Chaos Spawn).

There was also a short period at the tail end of 3rd before 4th clarified how to handle units with mixed armor saves where you could run a footslogging build that relied on throwing Str8+ shooting on thrall wizards and the rest on the 2-wound 1ksons.

 Quickjager wrote:
TL;DR: The Codex was essentially Space Marines + 1

what is a land speeder? what is a razorback? what is a drop pod? what is a plasma cannon on troops? what is a thunder hammer?

tell me please WHERE you got the evidence that it was SM +1, especially from this discussion. The point of the codex was Space Marines, but with less equipment and more demonic stuff an veteran skills.

Now we have "space marines, but crappy with overcosted garbage units and dinosaurs". But I suppose is thee only thing that keep people in their comfort zone.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


and finally, the most infamous of all the broken units in the codex: the daemon prince. While limited to just a single one per army, the Daemon Prince is a god compared to what we have now. You could give it eternal warrior, improve every single one of it's stats by 1 if you could pay for it, give it daemon weapons (one of which let it ignore ALL saves, including invul saves), make it fly, give it a 2+ armor with a 4++ (back when most were thankful for a consistent 5++ and the storm shield wasn't a 3++) and it could jump between combat. Oh and psychic powers, because Psychic powers (the tzeentch one was worse since it could auto-pass psychic tests if i remember).

It was basically the Codex: Wraithknight of the time, only held back because Fish of Fury was a thing at the same time.

Let's take this challenge then. Remember, the Chaos Lord has a max of 100 points of Daemonic Gifts.

Now taking Stature, the Dreadaxe, Armour, Aura and Flight is 95 points in itself.

Not a single stat boosting Daemonic Gift costs the magic 5 points, nevermind all of them. In fact, this model lacks Eternal Warrior, is only S5 and T5 and actually has WORSE BS than before.

The dreaded Infiltrate - that everyone kept talking about for Turn 1 bike or Wing-prince assault - has the following disclaimer on it.

'Models with a bike, a Steed, Followers, Daemonic Stature, the Mark of Khorne or Terminator Armour cannot use this skill.'

Remember - a model with 50+ points of Daemonic Gifts can claim to be a Daemon Prince and should be modelled appropriately but that Daemon Princes weren't automatically monstrous creatures. You had to take Daemonic Stature to benefit from the MC rules. This rule essentially existed for the sake of Daemonhunters - as a Chaos Lord with 45 points of Daemonic Gifts (not including Stature) was NOT counted as a Daemon so was not vulnerable to certain abilities Daemonhunters had.

It's funny. When you read the actual book...

It amazes you how many of the good old 'CSM were cheese!' complainers were actually talking out of their arses the whole time.

When the 3.5 Chaos Codex was first released gaming meta was completely different. Just find an early 3rd edition codex and compare it.

Most of the armies out there still used a "pamphlet" codex that had all of 6 pages of rules in it. There were few deathstar units, plasma cannons and Multi-meltas were only on Devastators, Terminators with stormbolters were still battleground powerhouses, Wraithlords were the most powerful enemy you'd ever face, and Drop Pods didn't exist yet. Close combat also was much better than shooting at the time.


Then dropped this massively thick book of rules. Every unit could be customized.

The Defiler. Back in the day this was a beast. It could fire indirectly (which may be why people remember 4 Basilisks). They could be both indirect fire support, and if anyone tried to deepstrike near them they could simply walk over, douse them with their other weapons, then assault them with Strength 10 AP2 melee with a good number of attacks.

The options to Aspiring Champions were insane. Yes, you could go over-the top in decking them out, but if you kept it simply they would rival a other amies HQ choices. A basic squad leader almost as good as a Space Marine Captain, for less points, and you'd have 4 or 5 of them.

The weakest army was Tzeench, but honestly I liked playing them. 32 point 2-wound fearless terminators were awesome. Also, I liked having multiple squad leaders with a psychic power that was basically a poison 4+ flamer with AP 2, auto-casted without chance to block it. You could also shoot it twice per turn by sacrificing a 5-point thrall.

Demon Princes could be made "powerful enough" for hardly any points. For 165 points you could have a jump-pack monstrous creature, casting psychic powers (I liked the Tzeench flamer power here too), with 7 attack on the charge, re-rolling 2 misses per turn.

For chaos players it was great. For anyone playing against chaos, it was one of the most insanely broken and ridiculous codices gw ever produced. It was head and shoulders above pretty much everything else at the time.

Iron warriors were frankly ridiculous, with 3 tank hunting havoc squads, 3x3 obliterators (and thry had far more gun options back then as they do now), daemon prince, first turn charge Nike lords that could roll up a flank without breaking a sweat. And then you had the five man infiltrating las/plas troops 'tax'. The truth is this that 90% of the time! this is what you saw, not the thousands of 'cool things you could do' with all its options. Internal and external balance was shocking,


There was a great cheer from every non-chaos player when that codex took an axe to its knee. And no, while I think the idea of moving away from legions as structured fighting forces in favour of warbands is fine and makes sense given the fluff, I think the way gw has chosen to do this is quite ham fisted.

Deadnight wrote:
For chaos players it was great. For anyone playing against chaos, it was one of the most insanely broken and ridiculous codices gw ever produced. It was head and shoulders above pretty much everything else at the time.

Iron warriors were frankly ridiculous, with 3 tank hunting havoc squads, 3x3 obliterators (and thry had far more gun options back then as they do now),

The only thing Oblits had then that they don't now are autocannons (though they did not have Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers, nor Plasma Cannons as they do now). They just didn't have the silly rule that they had to use different weapons every turn and they were a 0-1 Elites (unlimited for IW's) instead of unlimited general Heavy Support. They also couldn't take Marks of Chaos.

There was a great cheer from every non-chaos player when that codex took an axe to its knee.

For about half a second until they realized what Lash was a thing , and the 4E Eldar book had already begun to dethrone the 3.5E CSM book as top dog.

And no, while I think the idea of moving away from legions as structured fighting forces in favour of warbands is fine and makes sense given the fluff, I think the way gw has chosen to do this is quite ham fisted.

Even in the fluff the Legion warbands typically retain their unique wargear and methods of fighting, and many are still somewhat cohesive or at least function in formations of Chapter sized or larger (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Death Guard, etc, not every legion is totally scattered like the Emperor's Children).

Deadnight wrote:


Iron warriors were frankly ridiculous, with 3 tank hunting havoc squads, 3x3 obliterators (and thry had far more gun options back then as they do now), daemon prince, first turn charge Nike lords that could roll up a flank without breaking a sweat. And then you had the five man infiltrating las/plas troops 'tax'. The truth is this that 90% of the time! this is what you saw, not the thousands of 'cool things you could do' with all its options. Internal and external balance was shocking,

IW were above average, but as people pointed out, this was the edition of Eldar Craftworld, that came out one year (2001) before the 3.5 CSM codex (2002).
This alone should quench any argument of "b-but they were OP compared to the meta"

I ran a fluffy and extremely capable Word Bearers army through the life of the codex. This was, by far, the most enjoyable army I ever owned in 25+ years of playing 40K. The book was full of great options and modeling Chaos had so much unique flair about it.

The biggest complaints seemed to evolve around the Fzorgle Prince and Iron Warriors. I didn't run either and would get folks gnashing their teeth at my army, but always had a good time.

If Chaos remotely would get rules options like that again, I would build another Chaos army immediately.

 Sarigar wrote:
I ran a fluffy and extremely capable Word Bearers army through the life of the codex. This was, by far, the most enjoyable army I ever owned in 25+ years of playing 40K. The book was full of great options and modeling Chaos had so much unique flair about it.

The biggest complaints seemed to evolve around the Fzorgle Prince and Iron Warriors. I didn't run either and would get folks gnashing their teeth at my army, but always had a good time.

If Chaos remotely would get rules options like that again, I would build another Chaos army immediately.

So would I. I yearn for the day I can play a fluffy legion and not feel subpar unless I'm using counts-as Loyalist Lapdog rules instead.

Vaktathi wrote: The only thing Oblits had then that they don't now are autocannons (though they did not have Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers, nor Plasma Cannons as they do now). They just didn't have the silly rule that they had to use different weapons every turn and they were a 0-1 Elites (unlimited for IW's) instead of unlimited general Heavy Support. They also couldn't take Marks of Chaos.

True, but considering how the 'power curve' of the game was a lot less back then, the strengths of the iron warriors were above and beyond what pretty much anyone else could bring to the table.

Vaktathi wrote:
For about half a second until they realized what Lash was a thing , and the 4E Eldar book had already begun to dethrone the 3.5E CSM book as top dog.

True. But lash was often hated for different reasons, chief amongst them being people losing control of their own army. But even with lash, it was nothing compared to 3.5.

Vaktathi wrote:
Even in the fluff the Legion warbands typically retain their unique wargear and methods of fighting, and many are still somewhat cohesive or at least function in formations of Chapter sized or larger (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Death Guard, etc, not every legion is totally scattered like the Emperor's Children).

It's a personal interpretation though. I like the idea that the legions are essentially shattered and broken up since their heresy (and it's more than just the emperor's children, FYI -.most legions were shattered or scattered), and rather than remaining as cohesive entities in their own rights they have broken down to the realm of warbands rules by ruthless warlords who rule through strength and fear. More chaotic, if you ask me.

Kaiyanwang wrote:
IW were above average, but as people pointed out, this was the edition of Eldar Craftworld, that came out one year (2001) before the 3.5 CSM codex (2002). This alone should quench any argument of "b-but they were OP compared to the meta"

Considering what eldar were like in third, eldar during fourth was a breath of fresh air in comparison. and yes, iron warriors were op compared to the meta.

Iron Warriors with nine Oblits were great. But they couldnt beat my Siren Army. Nobody could.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Deadnight wrote:


Iron warriors were frankly ridiculous, with 3 tank hunting havoc squads, 3x3 obliterators (and thry had far more gun options back then as they do now), daemon prince, first turn charge Nike lords that could roll up a flank without breaking a sweat. And then you had the five man infiltrating las/plas troops 'tax'. The truth is this that 90% of the time! this is what you saw, not the thousands of 'cool things you could do' with all its options. Internal and external balance was shocking,

IW were above average, but as people pointed out, this was the edition of Eldar Craftworld, that came out one year (2001) before the 3.5 CSM codex (2002).
This alone should quench any argument of "b-but they were OP compared to the meta"

Uhh no IW were 'beardy' as heck. Eldar Craftworld was average. Lots of stuff came out, haha I can't believe that is the argument people are making; most of it was 'average' ...IW were not just 'above average' though - they were tough as nails, as was the Rhino-Rush marines.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Deadnight wrote:


Iron warriors were frankly ridiculous, with 3 tank hunting havoc squads, 3x3 obliterators (and thry had far more gun options back then as they do now), daemon prince, first turn charge Nike lords that could roll up a flank without breaking a sweat. And then you had the five man infiltrating las/plas troops 'tax'. The truth is this that 90% of the time! this is what you saw, not the thousands of 'cool things you could do' with all its options. Internal and external balance was shocking,

IW were above average, but as people pointed out, this was the edition of Eldar Craftworld, that came out one year (2001) before the 3.5 CSM codex (2002).
This alone should quench any argument of "b-but they were OP compared to the meta"

Uhh no IW were 'beardy' as heck. Eldar Craftworld was average. Lots of stuff came out, haha I can't believe that is the argument people are making; most of it was 'average' ...IW were not just 'above average' though - they were tough as nails, as was the Rhino-Rush marines.

Rhino Rush was the common Marine tactic then. It still died like flies to Starcannon and Brightlance spam from Eldar (or Darklances from DE).

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Deadnight wrote:


Iron warriors were frankly ridiculous, with 3 tank hunting havoc squads, 3x3 obliterators (and thry had far more gun options back then as they do now), daemon prince, first turn charge Nike lords that could roll up a flank without breaking a sweat. And then you had the five man infiltrating las/plas troops 'tax'. The truth is this that 90% of the time! this is what you saw, not the thousands of 'cool things you could do' with all its options. Internal and external balance was shocking,

IW were above average, but as people pointed out, this was the edition of Eldar Craftworld, that came out one year (2001) before the 3.5 CSM codex (2002).
This alone should quench any argument of "b-but they were OP compared to the meta"

Uhh no IW were 'beardy' as heck. Eldar Craftworld was average. Lots of stuff came out, haha I can't believe that is the argument people are making; most of it was 'average' ...IW were not just 'above average' though - they were tough as nails, as was the Rhino-Rush marines.

Rhino Rush was the common Marine tactic then. It still died like flies to Starcannon and Brightlance spam from Eldar (or Darklances from DE).

Ha, no really it didn't. It's like people on 'both' sides of this argument really have no idea what they're talking about. The Blood Angels rhino rush broke the game so badly they had to amend the assault / disembark rules. IW were also really dominant.