Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Could pro-chaos propaganda, too, since its always seems the case when Loyalists do something nice

 Wulfmar wrote:
I liked old Space Marines as convicts sent to die in the emptiness of space. It was very grim-dark and in the theme of the comics that inspired 40K such as Judge Dredd and Nemesis the Warlock.

I wish they hadn't retconned that half Eldar Ultramarine psyker - not because I liked him, but purely because so many people are unable to cope with the idea of his existence. It pleases me and it pleases Tzeentch....

I wholeheartedly agree, Space Marines these days are too saccharine, too heroic and absolutely the polar opposite of Grimdark/ Gothic.

There used to be a dystopian, hopeless feel about 40k, mankind living on the edge, besieged on all sides, and subject to a nightmare tyrannical regime, now it's all heroic space knights and super giant robot death gubbins.
It almost feels that not only will humanity will win, it's practically inevitable. Nothing can over-power the mighty Space Mawines, which is a shame because I loved the heroic last stand of the Crimson Fists on the front cover of RT, the valiant last heroic, stand, dirty, brutal and ultimately futile.
I loved Crimson Fists then, they are the best Space Marines, for being the original, and ultimately defeated Marines. Not these new shiney avatars of heroism that GW has bastardised them into.
Brainwiped, criminal psycopaths in powered armour and boltguns FTW.

The 30k era is best. Legions of Space Marines stomping their way through and conquering a hostile galaxy.

=)

Having read this tread there are so many retcons that I don't like. The Legion of the Damned for one, the change in space marines, the degradation of chaos space marines, taking the humour out of the setting, especially with the orcs.

The less I hear about them the better, personally.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
And that is why I don't like Black Templars.

Hatred should be directed with both eyes open so that it can best purge the fools who stand in the way of the Emperor's righteous crusades.

I have to close one eye to purify the heretic with my sniper rifle

The idea that the mechanicum abhor inventing new stuff, but techmarines come up with new tank variants constantly

There are a few minor ones as well but my major ones are:

- Necrons and C'tan becoming just another minor annoyance rather than the end of the world in waiting dread they originally had.

- Ollanius Pious - Seriously the guy was so important to the fluff that every imperial guard regiment carried a banner with his face on!

- Knowledge of Chaos, it used to be that the actual existence of chaos was a secret and that people would be killed for having experienced it and marines would be mind wiped. This was such an issue that Marines were not normal used to fight chaos at all because they were too valuable.

EDITE

- And SQUATS!!! if we can have space elves and space orks I want me some space dwarves!

 Shadow Walker wrote:
I hate how Black Templars were changed to basically male version of Sisters of Battle. They were secular [Imperial Truth], psyker hating [and last followers of Nikaea edict] and now they fall to knees when they see an astropath and would kiss an Eccesliarch's arse.

Technically the Templars were always a little hypocritical in that they used psykers (astropaths and navigators), even though they hated the witch. But, I see that as pragmatism, since without those two things, they cannot travel or communicate across the galaxy.

But the first change, turning them into Adeptus Fraternitus, I agree. And it demonstrates two things: a lack of creative vision at GW, as well as a lack of creativity. The interesting thing about the Templars was that they were so thematically similar to the SoBs, but doctrinally and ideologically opposed. The original ally chart must have been written by somebody with insight into how real world religions have worked across the millennia, and possible somebody trying to highlight the parallels between the Catholics and the Protestants, for example, a topic well understood in the UK for sure.

The Sisters and Templars couldn't have been more different in their old fluff, and trying to paint them as allies is about the most superficial and boring thing ever. In reality, two "faiths" that are closely, but irreconcilably related would probably hate one another. The Sisters preached the divinity of the Emperor, while the Templars upheld his original vision as sacrosanct. These are literally two ideologies that cannot coincide. When you add in the fact that the Templars are wanton and flagrant rule-breakers, and the Sisters are zealous and intractable rule-enforcers, the insightful reader/writer comes to the conclusion that the reason why the Templars and Sisters were Desperate Allies is that in the 40K universe, is that they would have never been willing allies unless circumstances all but necessitated it.

But, alas, more basic, simpler minds prevailed, and the Black Templars became a cookie cutter Servants of the Emprah Religious Army, and lost everything that had ever made them cool.


Also hate the Newcrons. This was an army that didn't need character. If people wanted more character in their armies, they needed to be playing other armies, lol. Tyranid players don't wanted around griping that their army didn't have enough character. If you play the mindless gribblies, your gribblies are mindless. If you play the soul-less ancient evil, your evil is ancient and soul-less. Newcrons (Tomb Kings Innnnnn Spaaaaaaaaace) took everything cool out of the Necrons, and gave them back very little of value in return, from a fluff standpoint. People complaining that the Necrons didn't have any "meaningful fluff" didn't understand what the Necrons were supposed to be in the first place.

Also hate the Alpha Legion that was spawned by Abnett's awful fluff. Also known as the Scooby Doo Marines. I feel like there is a competition at The Black Library to see who can write the most improbable Alpha Legion infiltration story. They went from the bitter arrogant jerkwads who threw their lot in with the wrong side and had taken to a ten thousand year long guerilla war, and turned them into a joke.

I'm hoping Omegon is actually Alpharius's Tyler Durden, and it turns out he wasn't anything other than a split personality the entire time. It's the only thing that could save their fluff even remotely.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

I'm hoping Omegon is actually Alpharius's Tyler Durden, and it turns out he wasn't anything other than a split personality the entire time. It's the only thing that could save their fluff even remotely.

Except Conrad Curze already did the split personality thing, at least according to the Night Lords novels.

A bit contrived (and boring) to have the same storyline happen to two different Primarchs.

Personally I'd rather like the twins bit of the fluff if they'd done something interesting with it. The best thing I think would be for the once inseperable brothers to slowly, almost imperceptibly start moving in separate directions. One brother becomes corrupted and the other one stays true to their original vision, the chapter splits, and then they end up killing each other, grand tragedy style. This could also allow for a faction of Alpha Legionaries that is renegade but non-chaotic, and another faction of warpy space terrorists, both of whom hate each other but are mirrors of each other in their methods. So fans of the new and old Alphas would both get what they want. And they'd probably both about it.

I feel like I'm the only one who actually likes the new Alpha Legion fluff. Subversion and guerilla warfare kinda go hand in hand, and it makes sense to me at least to not reveal your actual leader while doing so. There's instances of body doubles across fiction (and probably irl, I'm sure) already. It makes them that much more flavorful beyond things like, "This Legion rides bikes, this legion hits things with axes, these two(!) legions do siege warfare, this legion is ROMANS IN SPAAAACE"

Typically-Wardian wrote:
I like the Ollanius retcon. It was supposed to be just the marines on horus ship. Having the guardsman there makes no sense.

In older fluff, he gave his life at the imperial palace.

The whole ending of the heresy thing has been tweaked around a lot over the years.

 Gashrog wrote:
Retcons I dislike:

Originally (1st edition) the Legion of the Damned were outright stated to be the warp-plague riddled survivors of the Fire Hawks, specifically from the cruiser Absolute, the only Fire Hawk vessel not to be obliterated in the warp. Imbued with power by the plague that was slowly killing them and driving them mad they decided to sell their lives in the name of the Emperor. I much prefer this over the firey-ghost thing, as it made them the antithises of the Death Guard, who in the same circumstances chose to sell their souls

But this still is the lore for them silly :p

They just added on to them more and turned them into shadowy figures that act more like ghost and appear out of no where, not retconed just added in to

*fail post*

I think you have the wrong thread.

Or a very weird perception of a fluff retcon

Yeah... My phone does weird stuff some days...

Dont Like: Grey Knights since 5th Edition, Ollanius Pious (any version), Space Wolves since 6th Ed, New Black Templars, Dinobots, Perpetuals, Vulkan being a Perpetual, Tempestus Scions (as it was mentioned earlier the Schola being Torture Porn Hogwarts is dumb), Ratlings (they've always been around though and I've always hated them).

Meh Tier: Imperium Secundus, New Tau, FarsightxShadowsun implications, NewCrons, Alpha Legion (its really got this back and forth of good and bad with a healthy dose of completely stupid, looking at you Cabal)

I'm sure there is more for Don't like and Meh, but I cant think of them right now. There's also probably some retcon I like somewhere. Hell if I know what it is.

 fallinq wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

I'm hoping Omegon is actually Alpharius's Tyler Durden, and it turns out he wasn't anything other than a split personality the entire time. It's the only thing that could save their fluff even remotely.

Except Conrad Curze already did the split personality thing, at least according to the Night Lords novels.

A bit contrived (and boring) to have the same storyline happen to two different Primarchs.

Personally I'd rather like the twins bit of the fluff if they'd done something interesting with it. The best thing I think would be for the once inseperable brothers to slowly, almost imperceptibly start moving in separate directions. One brother becomes corrupted and the other one stays true to their original vision, the chapter splits, and then they end up killing each other, grand tragedy style. This could also allow for a faction of Alpha Legionaries that is renegade but non-chaotic, and another faction of warpy space terrorists, both of whom hate each other but are mirrors of each other in their methods. So fans of the new and old Alphas would both get what they want. And they'd probably both about it.

You quote someone elses post as mine. Please correct

Quite a few retcons I don't like, actually.

1) Dolmen gates

2) Necrons control the C'tan, not the other way around

3) No enslaver plague

4) Not really lore per se, but necrons are allies of convenience with CSM. I really don't like that. Like, before Necrons were opposed to the warp, but they are now happy with working with the warp's puppets? What?

5) Flayed Ones are just sick now instead of undergoing an existentialist crisis

6) Monolith having crew

7) Wraiths are now drones, instead of assassins that kill their targets by removing their organs with surgical precision, leaving no trace of a wound.

8) Necrons have dynasties now. I don't really mind the necrons being fractured, because they were kind of like that before, but them having obvious politics bother me. It makes them more like the IoM.

9) Necrons having obvious personalities. They are too human, poorly written ones at that. The necron lords before did have personality, they just rarely showed it. Why should they? Would you converse with a cockroach?

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Worst, mouth frothing rage I have had from a retcon is Fulgrim in that god awful Reflection Crack'd short story.

We had arguably one of the best books in the entire HH series that created a perfect and complete character arch of one man's fall from grace. Fulgrim, the perfect but arrogant warrior, steps on a path to damnation. He unwittingly allows himself to be slowly warped twisted by a daemon, allows his legion to be turned into a disgusting parody of itself, betrays everything he stands for, and then the exact moment he kills his closest brother...the veil is lifted and he is flooded with remorse and shame and tries to end his own life. In that moment of weakness the Daemon seizes control and makes him into a shell for evil. It's so perfectly tragic because we know that only WE the audience know the truth. The monster of the 41st millenium, reviled by all, is not Fulgrim, but a daemon wearing his flesh. Only Horus knows the truth and we the audience also know that he will die, his promise to kill the Daemon after the war will go unfulfilled. It was perfect, Dorian Grey in Space.

"SIKE...Just joking, he was in control all along LOLZ. Yup, he's a big unrepentant gak clown like everybody assumed after all. His mind ate the Daemon or something? Who cares, because twists are awesome right...RIGHT?" No.

"Oh or maybe, wink wink, its all a lie and maybe he is possessed after all *snigger* Haha like we'll ever tell you. Remember how much you like ambiguity around the lost primarchs/Alpha legion allegiance? Well here is some ambiguity sauce all over your perfect tragic arch." In a series that is going on FOREVER, literally one of the few nice, neat one book character arch is thrown into wibbly wobbly, who knows where this thread is going, territory.

Even if he is possessed after all, I no longer care, because now it doesn't fit. I don't care about the character, I used up all of my feelings the first time that I thought it happened. I literally don't care if they flip things around again.

This one is so egregious not only because it was retconned in the span of like 6 years, but by the actual author who penned the character in the first place. I got mad even typing this, I hated that story so much. Actual seething hatred.

And on a final rant, I have so much unease that they plan to do exactly the same with Alpharius too. "Oh the whole loyal thing? Nah, evil all along....Or is he? LOL" Frag you Black Library.

This. 1000 times this.

So far I am not too bothered with retcons because none of them have really affected my particular armies.

What I do hate is the 'Oh look at thus new shiny thing we sell now but Space Marines have actually had, forever!'

It's so dumb.

No enslaver plague ?! They did retcon this ?

 godardc wrote:
No enslaver plague ?! They did retcon this ?

It doesn't show up in the 5th ed necron book, and there's even less fluff in the 7th ed book, so yeah, it doesn't seem to exist anymore

Uncertain really, one could say it just wasn't mentioned at all since the oldcron codex and so it did happen. On the other hand, with how the war in heaven unfolded in the Wardcron codex, it is implied to not have happened or if it did happen, it wasn't nearly as potent as it had been in the oldcron fluff or happened on a significantly smaller scale.

 King Pariah wrote:


Uncertain really, one could say it just wasn't mentioned at all since the oldcron codex and so it did happen. On the other hand, with how the war in heaven unfolded in the Wardcron codex, it is implied to not have happened or if it did happen, it wasn't nearly as potent as it had been in the oldcron fluff or happened on a significantly smaller scale.

It would not have happened.
The enslaver plague was an event that was supposed to end the old ones and force the C'tan and the Necrons into hiding due to a lack of food.

In the newer books it isn't necessary; the necrons went into hiding because they were too weakened after fighting the C'tan to fight the Eldar.
The Old Ones were wiped out by the necrons.
The Enslaver plague made more sense; why didn't the Eldar just pursue the necrons when they were going into hibernation? With the enslaver plague there was a good reason, now...not so much.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:


Uncertain really, one could say it just wasn't mentioned at all since the oldcron codex and so it did happen. On the other hand, with how the war in heaven unfolded in the Wardcron codex, it is implied to not have happened or if it did happen, it wasn't nearly as potent as it had been in the oldcron fluff or happened on a significantly smaller scale.

It would not have happened.
The enslaver plague was an event that was supposed to end the old ones and force the C'tan and the Necrons into hiding due to a lack of food.

In the newer books it isn't necessary; the necrons went into hiding because they were too weakened after fighting the C'tan to fight the Eldar.
The Old Ones were wiped out by the necrons.
The Enslaver plague made more sense; why didn't the Eldar just pursue the necrons when they were going into hibernation? With the enslaver plague there was a good reason, now...not so much.

I'm in the same camp as you, but there are people (at my FLGS's) that claim otherwise. Soooo... I just made a nod to both sides of that argument.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
I feel like I'm the only one who actually likes the new Alpha Legion fluff. Subversion and guerilla warfare kinda go hand in hand, and it makes sense to me at least to not reveal your actual leader while doing so. There's instances of body doubles across fiction (and probably irl, I'm sure) already. It makes them that much more flavorful beyond things like, "This Legion rides bikes, this legion hits things with axes, these two(!) legions do siege warfare, this legion is ROMANS IN SPAAAACE"

Don't worry. Almost everyone likes the Alpha Legion. It is just Veteran Sergeant. Ultramarines are notorious for being rigid and unable to deal with the shifting adaptable nature of the Alpha Legion


A retcon I really like is that the Iron Warriors changed from heartless, moustache twirling villains doing what they do just out of jealousy and for the evulz into tragic anti-villains with grand ideas that were forced to become something they never wanted to be, being treated like dirt by the rest of the galaxy no matter how hard they worked until it eventually drove them into the arms of Horus and Chaos.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
I feel like I'm the only one who actually likes the new Alpha Legion fluff. Subversion and guerilla warfare kinda go hand in hand, and it makes sense to me at least to not reveal your actual leader while doing so. There's instances of body doubles across fiction (and probably irl, I'm sure) already. It makes them that much more flavorful beyond things like, "This Legion rides bikes, this legion hits things with axes, these two(!) legions do siege warfare, this legion is ROMANS IN SPAAAACE"

Don't worry. Almost everyone likes the Alpha Legion. It is just Veteran Sergeant. Ultramarines are notorious for being rigid and unable to deal with the shifting adaptable nature of the Alpha Legion


A retcon I really like is that the Iron Warriors changed from heartless, moustache twirling villains doing what they do just out of jealousy and for the evulz into tragic anti-villains with grand ideas that were forced to become something they never wanted to be, being treated like dirt by the rest of the galaxy no matter how hard they worked until it eventually drove them into the arms of Horus and Chaos.

I notice that retcon isa common one, the chaos marines over all are being made a little deeper. talon of horus has made Abbaddon a considerably more intreasting charcter rather then "DARK LORD MCCHAOS!"

I didn't like how they retconned the Warp from not having Kaldor Draigo to having Kaldor Draigo.

I didnt love the World Eaters being retconned from frothing psychos to frothing psychos because of poorly fitted braces

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I didn't like how they retconned the Warp from not having Kaldor Draigo to having Kaldor Draigo.

You win.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

I'm hoping Omegon is actually Alpharius's Tyler Durden, and it turns out he wasn't anything other than a split personality the entire time. It's the only thing that could save their fluff even remotely.

Except Conrad Curze already did the split personality thing, at least according to the Night Lords novels.

A bit contrived (and boring) to have the same storyline happen to two different Primarchs.

Personally I'd rather like the twins bit of the fluff if they'd done something interesting with it. The best thing I think would be for the once inseperable brothers to slowly, almost imperceptibly start moving in separate directions. One brother becomes corrupted and the other one stays true to their original vision, the chapter splits, and then they end up killing each other, grand tragedy style. This could also allow for a faction of Alpha Legionaries that is renegade but non-chaotic, and another faction of warpy space terrorists, both of whom hate each other but are mirrors of each other in their methods. So fans of the new and old Alphas would both get what they want. And they'd probably both about it.

You quote someone elses post as mine. Please correct

Did I just ask to correct myself? No, as you can see, the quotes got all jacked up on this comment somehow. I assure you it was unintentional and I don't know how to fix it.