Switch Theme:

Storm Bolters  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Poll
Should Storm Bolter Should Be Changed?
Storm Bolters Need to be Nerfed
Storm Bolters Need to be Left Alone
Storm Bolters Need to be Changed
Storm Bolters Need to be Buffed
< Other > [List Below]

View results
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Hey guys,

In another thread, it seemed to be the consensus of those who posted that Storm Bolters need a change, generally a buff more than anything. I don't necessarily agree, being of the opinion that they are fine as they are but a buff would be welcome.

What are peoples thoughts on this?


If you voted anything other than "Storm Bolters Need to be Left Alone", what should their new profile be? Whether it's an increase in strength, or new Special Rules, or a combination of changes, how would they be different.


How will this new profile affect other weapons?

Because in the other topic, an increase to S5 was mentioned, which I feel encroaches on the territory of Heavy Bolters.


Cheers Guys

Edit - Addition

I thought this could be a good change to Assault Weapons and help with buffing the Storm Bolter:

Assault Weapons

Assault Weapons will typically have two numbers in their profile (listed after their type) separated by a ‘/’. If the model is firing at strictly more than half of its maximum range, then the weapon fires the number of shots equal to the first number. If the model is firing at half of its maximum range or less, then the weapon fires the number of shots equal to the second number. If the profile only has one number, then that weapon fires that number of shots at all distances up to and including its maximum range.

A model carrying an Assault Weapon can fire it in the Shooting Phase and still charge into close combat in the Assault Phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 08:19:38


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Stormbolters don't need a buff. Certain things that are better than bolters need to be nerfed. Certain things that stormbolters cannot hit need to be nerfed.

Think about what a stormbolter does.

It allows you,in effect, to rapidfire a bolter at up to 24 inch range and still declare an assault.

Against non-vehicles and MCs and non death star shenanigans, that's awesome.

Stormbolters "suck" because of vehicles, monstrous creatures and shenanigans like rerollable saves.

Nerfs, not buffs, are called for.

Say it with now!

"Enough is enough: I am TIRED of this mother fething power creep in this mother fething game!"

"No more rerollable saves!"

"No more shenanigans!"

"No more undercosted OP bull excrement!"

"No more invincible killing machines that invalidate most of the opponent's army! MOAR INFANTRY SKIRMISHES!"

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/27 07:45:38


 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

I wouldn't mind them working like a smaller hurricane bolter. (Even fits with the name.) Basically it would fire 4 bolts at 12" or 2 at over 12. That's a fairly decent increase in output even if it is just bolter shots.

20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 niv-mizzet wrote:
I wouldn't mind them working like a smaller hurricane bolter. (Even fits with the name.) Basically it would fire 4 bolts at 12" or 2 at over 12. That's a fairly decent increase in output even if it is just bolter shots.


Then it would have to lose the assault special rule.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

Not necessarily, it would just need to have a simple exception. Or it could be done by making a "scattershot" ranged type that just gets more dice at close range without losing assault ability like rapid fire, which we could finally throw shotguns into.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/27 08:02:23


20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 
   
Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot









Traditio wrote:Nerfs, not buffs, are called for.

Say it with now!

"Enough is enough: I am TIRED of this mother fething power creep in this mother fething game!"

"No more rerollable saves!"

"No more shenanigans!"

"No more undercosted OP bull excrement!"

"No more invincible killing machines that invalidate most of the opponent's army! MOAR INFANTRY SKIRMISHES!"


We're not part your one-man crusade against buff. Leave this stuff at the door. Plus it adds nothing to the discussion.


niv-mizzet wrote:I wouldn't mind them working like a smaller hurricane bolter. (Even fits with the name.) Basically it would fire 4 bolts at 12" or 2 at over 12. That's a fairly decent increase in output even if it is just bolter shots.


I could get on board with that, plus it makes sense.


Traditio wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
I wouldn't mind them working like a smaller hurricane bolter. (Even fits with the name.) Basically it would fire 4 bolts at 12" or 2 at over 12. That's a fairly decent increase in output even if it is just bolter shots.


Then it would have to lose the assault special rule.


Not true. You could write the profile as follows:

Range: Up to 12"; Strength: 4; AP: 5; Assault 4;
Range: 12" - 24"; Strength: 4; AP: 5; Assault 2;
   
Made in de
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





As far as I see it the only problem of the stormbolter is that it's very similar to a combi-bolter and within 12" it's weaker, even though fluffwise the stormbolter is an improvement from the combi-bolter and should be better. Likewise, the Combi-bolter's only weakness of being rapid-fire and disallowing assault is usually non-existant since it's used by relentless models(Chaos-Termis). Therefore the only reasonable change I could see is giving the Stormbolter twin-linked (it's a two-barrelled gun after all).
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






I think the stormbolter is fine as is but it being changed or buffed wouldn't bother me at all. Definitely not nerfed though as it isn't in any way OP. Its basically a 24" shoota with AP5 being fired by something that isn't legally blind. Hardly game breaking stuff. What would probably need to be changed is how many points it tends to cost to upgrade to one or add it to a vehicle.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

I have two ideas: we give it twinliked (like another guys said) or we give it Assault 3 or 4.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




The storm-bolter/combi-bolter is worth noting.

The combi-bolter is better up close, the storm bolter is better at long range.

I don't think it needs many more shots; it's only two barrels, and the bolters themselves aren't anything massively more than a pair of godwyns in a single casing.

Not being relentless isn't too much of an issue. There is no reason terminators require assault weapons, and when in the hands of power armoured marines it's the size of most special weapons. It would make an issue for power armoured grey knights, though.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in gb
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






I'd like to see it become Assault 2/Heavy 3, basically this means that terminators can fire one additional shot all the time, while others can choose to fire an additional shot while stationary (provided they don't want to charge).

   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission



Eastern VA

Yep, Assault 2/Heavy4 is how I'd vote, with a dual profile like old psycannons and splinter cannons. Something like the "Storm" special rule in Dark Heresy, where each hit yields two hits, is a possibility too.

Alternatively, don't change it, but do make it a 2-point upgrade instead of 5. At 5 points, there's only a few places I currently take them: Retributors Superior, who need every shot they can get, and tanks that have one big, important gun like Vindicators and Exorcists. 5 points is cheap, but upgrading a sergeant's bolter to a storm bolter rarely matters. At 2 points, I'd consider it on more units, especially for Sisters.

~4500 -- ~4000 -- ~2000 -- ~5000 -- ~5000 -- ~4000 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






The main issue of buffing it is addressing a change to the combi-bolter then, since right now the two are balanced based on the distance of the firer to the enemy. If the storm bolter does get buffed to be Salvo 2/4 or the old Assault 2/Heavy 4, then the Combi-Bolter should have something to compensate for it. Perhaps it has a similar dual profile? S4 AP5 Twin-linked Rapid Fire/Heavy 3?
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission



Eastern VA

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Or clean up the mess with Rapid-Fire, and call it Rapid-Fire 2. We have Hurricane Bolters already, which are basically "Rapid-Fire 3", but we won't call them that.

Rapid-Fire X: Fire X shots at full range, fire 2X shots at half range.

~4500 -- ~4000 -- ~2000 -- ~5000 -- ~5000 -- ~4000 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




It depends on who's holding it.

Sternguard stormbolters are pointless as they loss Special Ammo but as a boost on a powerfist Sargent their a useful add on.

Maybe a slight buff on certain units eg terminators (loyal and chaos) but keep the standard version unchanged.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Double rapid fire. Literally two bolters as a single weapon.
   
Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






I've modified the original post with a suggestion that may help with this topic. I do agree with the fact that Storm Bolters should probably be Twin-Linked.

I also think that, given my suggested change, Pedro Kantor's Dorn's Arrow should have the following Profile:

Range: 24"
Strength: 4
AP: 4
Type: Assault 4/6, Twin-Linked

Also, normal Storm Bolters Should have the following Profile:

Range: 24"
Strength: 4
AP: 4
Type: Assault 2/3, Twin-Linked


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I find it interesting that only 50% of people (at the time of this post) think that Storm Bolters should be buffed. I thought it would be more, but hoped it would be less haha

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 08:24:47


 
   
Made in de
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





To be honest, I consider giving them AP4 or even 4 shots way to much. After all, it's just a Stormbolter, not a "heavy Stormbolter". It is a two barrelled bolter, nothing more. I think the discussion shows a problem of the rapid fire rules more than anything else. The difference between rapid fire and assault is not as high as it was in earlier additions. People are crying about scatterlasers destroying the game everywhere but want to have AP 4 4shot stormbolters? Or 5 shot heavy bolters like in the other thread? I dont want to offend but I have the feeling, there's some strong SM fanboyism going on
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest, I consider giving them AP4 or even 4 shots way to much. After all, it's just a Stormbolter, not a "heavy Stormbolter". It is a two barrelled bolter, nothing more. I think the discussion shows a problem of the rapid fire rules more than anything else. The difference between rapid fire and assault is not as high as it was in earlier additions. People are crying about scatterlasers destroying the game everywhere but want to have AP 4 4shot stormbolters? Or 5 shot heavy bolters like in the other thread? I dont want to offend but I have the feeling, there's some strong SM fanboyism going on


Sanguinary guard from BA have AP4 Storm bolters and have for several editions now. They aren't exactly terrifying. If you think things like that or 5 shot heavy bolters are anything to be feared in today's game, you probably don't see much in the way of competitive lists. (Not saying that's a bad thing, but when talking about balance issues, it really helps to be familiar with what's going on at the top tables.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 IllumiNini wrote:

Also, I find it interesting that only 50% of people (at the time of this post) think that Storm Bolters should be buffed. I thought it would be more, but hoped it would be less haha


A good number of people on the Internet HATE the imperium/marines. Another decent amount want a hardline stance of "no buffs for anyone ever, nerf everything back." Another subset of people don't want any army but their own to get a buff. Yet another subset plays in a meta that is actually more casual than they think it is, and they have skewed experience with the quality of the item in question and the necessity of the buff. And an even further subset just wants to troll polls.

With all those combined, getting 50% agreement on something is actually pretty impressively high.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 08:50:49


20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 
   
Made in au
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






 niv-mizzet wrote:
 IllumiNini wrote:

Also, I find it interesting that only 50% of people (at the time of this post) think that Storm Bolters should be buffed. I thought it would be more, but hoped it would be less haha


A good number of people on the Internet HATE the imperium/marines. Another decent amount want a hardline stance of "no buffs for anyone ever, nerf everything back." Another subset of people don't want any army but their own to get a buff. Yet another subset plays in a meta that is actually more casual than they think it is, and they have skewed experience with the quality of the item in question and the necessity of the buff. And an even further subset just wants to troll polls.

With all those combined, getting 50% agreement on something is actually pretty impressively high.


Hahaha fair enough.

The first category never really appealed or made sense to me, and the second ever only made sense when talking about the game as a whole rather than about a codex, associated codeces and supplements (or similar such sub-groupings). The third category I think can be applied to everyone, but most people tend to either be sensible about nerfs to their army, get over it, or both. As for the last category, that's just the internet haha.

And to be honest, the impression I got from the thread that served as inspiration for this one was that 50% in favour of buffing Storm Bolters would be a bit on the low side.
   
Made in gb
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I think the discussion shows a problem of the rapid fire rules more than anything else.

Actually that's a pretty fair point; has any tried just playing 7th edition with the old Rapid Fire rules? These actually also affected Hurricane Bolters quite noticeably on vehicles as well, since a Land Raider Crusader could deliver a full squad's worth of shooting on the move which an actual squad on the move could not.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I made mine have a heavy 3 firing option that can't be used as snapfire.

Let's grey knight units hunker down and unload if they need to!

   
Made in us
RogueSangre





The Cockatrice Malediction

jade_angel wrote:
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Or clean up the mess with Rapid-Fire, and call it Rapid-Fire 2. We have Hurricane Bolters already, which are basically "Rapid-Fire 3", but we won't call them that.

Rapid-Fire X: Fire X shots at full range, fire 2X shots at half range.

I think that might be a little too much. At Rapid Fire 3 you'd already be throwing out more shots at close range than most multi-shot heavy weapons. Not even Salvo weapons scale up that fast. Maybe something like:

Rapid Fire X = X shots at full range, X+1 shots at half range.

Give GK their own weapon for their wrist-mounted guns to keep them Assault. Nemesis Dreadbolters or some such nonsense.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: