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Hey guys,

In another thread, it seemed to be the consensus of those who posted that Storm Bolters need a change, generally a buff more than anything. I don't necessarily agree, being of the opinion that they are fine as they are but a buff would be welcome.

What are peoples thoughts on this?


If you voted anything other than "Storm Bolters Need to be Left Alone", what should their new profile be? Whether it's an increase in strength, or new Special Rules, or a combination of changes, how would they be different.


How will this new profile affect other weapons?

Because in the other topic, an increase to S5 was mentioned, which I feel encroaches on the territory of Heavy Bolters.


Cheers Guys

Edit - Addition

I thought this could be a good change to Assault Weapons and help with buffing the Storm Bolter:

Assault Weapons

Assault Weapons will typically have two numbers in their profile (listed after their type) separated by a ‘/’. If the model is firing at strictly more than half of its maximum range, then the weapon fires the number of shots equal to the first number. If the model is firing at half of its maximum range or less, then the weapon fires the number of shots equal to the second number. If the profile only has one number, then that weapon fires that number of shots at all distances up to and including its maximum range.

A model carrying an Assault Weapon can fire it in the Shooting Phase and still charge into close combat in the Assault Phase.

Stormbolters don't need a buff. Certain things that are better than bolters need to be nerfed. Certain things that stormbolters cannot hit need to be nerfed.

Think about what a stormbolter does.

It allows you,in effect, to rapidfire a bolter at up to 24 inch range and still declare an assault.

Against non-vehicles and MCs and non death star shenanigans, that's awesome.

Stormbolters "suck" because of vehicles, monstrous creatures and shenanigans like rerollable saves.

Nerfs, not buffs, are called for.

Say it with now!

"Enough is enough: I am TIRED of this mother fething power creep in this mother fething game!"

"No more rerollable saves!"

"No more shenanigans!"

"No more undercosted OP bull excrement!"

"No more invincible killing machines that invalidate most of the opponent's army! MOAR INFANTRY SKIRMISHES!"

I wouldn't mind them working like a smaller hurricane bolter. (Even fits with the name.) Basically it would fire 4 bolts at 12" or 2 at over 12. That's a fairly decent increase in output even if it is just bolter shots.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I wouldn't mind them working like a smaller hurricane bolter. (Even fits with the name.) Basically it would fire 4 bolts at 12" or 2 at over 12. That's a fairly decent increase in output even if it is just bolter shots.

Then it would have to lose the assault special rule.

Not necessarily, it would just need to have a simple exception. Or it could be done by making a "scattershot" ranged type that just gets more dice at close range without losing assault ability like rapid fire, which we could finally throw shotguns into.

Traditio wrote:Nerfs, not buffs, are called for.

Say it with now!

"Enough is enough: I am TIRED of this mother fething power creep in this mother fething game!"

"No more rerollable saves!"

"No more shenanigans!"

"No more undercosted OP bull excrement!"

"No more invincible killing machines that invalidate most of the opponent's army! MOAR INFANTRY SKIRMISHES!"

We're not part your one-man crusade against buff. Leave this stuff at the door. Plus it adds nothing to the discussion.

niv-mizzet wrote:I wouldn't mind them working like a smaller hurricane bolter. (Even fits with the name.) Basically it would fire 4 bolts at 12" or 2 at over 12. That's a fairly decent increase in output even if it is just bolter shots.

I could get on board with that, plus it makes sense.

Traditio wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I wouldn't mind them working like a smaller hurricane bolter. (Even fits with the name.) Basically it would fire 4 bolts at 12" or 2 at over 12. That's a fairly decent increase in output even if it is just bolter shots.

Then it would have to lose the assault special rule.

Not true. You could write the profile as follows:

Range: Up to 12"; Strength: 4; AP: 5; Assault 4;
Range: 12" - 24"; Strength: 4; AP: 5; Assault 2;

As far as I see it the only problem of the stormbolter is that it's very similar to a combi-bolter and within 12" it's weaker, even though fluffwise the stormbolter is an improvement from the combi-bolter and should be better. Likewise, the Combi-bolter's only weakness of being rapid-fire and disallowing assault is usually non-existant since it's used by relentless models(Chaos-Termis). Therefore the only reasonable change I could see is giving the Stormbolter twin-linked (it's a two-barrelled gun after all).

I think the stormbolter is fine as is but it being changed or buffed wouldn't bother me at all. Definitely not nerfed though as it isn't in any way OP. Its basically a 24" shoota with AP5 being fired by something that isn't legally blind. Hardly game breaking stuff. What would probably need to be changed is how many points it tends to cost to upgrade to one or add it to a vehicle.

I have two ideas: we give it twinliked (like another guys said) or we give it Assault 3 or 4.

The storm-bolter/combi-bolter is worth noting.

The combi-bolter is better up close, the storm bolter is better at long range.

I don't think it needs many more shots; it's only two barrels, and the bolters themselves aren't anything massively more than a pair of godwyns in a single casing.

Not being relentless isn't too much of an issue. There is no reason terminators require assault weapons, and when in the hands of power armoured marines it's the size of most special weapons. It would make an issue for power armoured grey knights, though.

I'd like to see it become Assault 2/Heavy 3, basically this means that terminators can fire one additional shot all the time, while others can choose to fire an additional shot while stationary (provided they don't want to charge).

Yep, Assault 2/Heavy4 is how I'd vote, with a dual profile like old psycannons and splinter cannons. Something like the "Storm" special rule in Dark Heresy, where each hit yields two hits, is a possibility too.

Alternatively, don't change it, but do make it a 2-point upgrade instead of 5. At 5 points, there's only a few places I currently take them: Retributors Superior, who need every shot they can get, and tanks that have one big, important gun like Vindicators and Exorcists. 5 points is cheap, but upgrading a sergeant's bolter to a storm bolter rarely matters. At 2 points, I'd consider it on more units, especially for Sisters.

The main issue of buffing it is addressing a change to the combi-bolter then, since right now the two are balanced based on the distance of the firer to the enemy. If the storm bolter does get buffed to be Salvo 2/4 or the old Assault 2/Heavy 4, then the Combi-Bolter should have something to compensate for it. Perhaps it has a similar dual profile? S4 AP5 Twin-linked Rapid Fire/Heavy 3?

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Or clean up the mess with Rapid-Fire, and call it Rapid-Fire 2. We have Hurricane Bolters already, which are basically "Rapid-Fire 3", but we won't call them that.

Rapid-Fire X: Fire X shots at full range, fire 2X shots at half range.

It depends on who's holding it.

Sternguard stormbolters are pointless as they loss Special Ammo but as a boost on a powerfist Sargent their a useful add on.

Maybe a slight buff on certain units eg terminators (loyal and chaos) but keep the standard version unchanged.

Double rapid fire. Literally two bolters as a single weapon.

I've modified the original post with a suggestion that may help with this topic. I do agree with the fact that Storm Bolters should probably be Twin-Linked.

I also think that, given my suggested change, Pedro Kantor's Dorn's Arrow should have the following Profile:

Range: 24"
Strength: 4
AP: 4
Type: Assault 4/6, Twin-Linked

Also, normal Storm Bolters Should have the following Profile:

Range: 24"
Strength: 4
AP: 4
Type: Assault 2/3, Twin-Linked


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I find it interesting that only 50% of people (at the time of this post) think that Storm Bolters should be buffed. I thought it would be more, but hoped it would be less haha

To be honest, I consider giving them AP4 or even 4 shots way to much. After all, it's just a Stormbolter, not a "heavy Stormbolter". It is a two barrelled bolter, nothing more. I think the discussion shows a problem of the rapid fire rules more than anything else. The difference between rapid fire and assault is not as high as it was in earlier additions. People are crying about scatterlasers destroying the game everywhere but want to have AP 4 4shot stormbolters? Or 5 shot heavy bolters like in the other thread? I dont want to offend but I have the feeling, there's some strong SM fanboyism going on

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest, I consider giving them AP4 or even 4 shots way to much. After all, it's just a Stormbolter, not a "heavy Stormbolter". It is a two barrelled bolter, nothing more. I think the discussion shows a problem of the rapid fire rules more than anything else. The difference between rapid fire and assault is not as high as it was in earlier additions. People are crying about scatterlasers destroying the game everywhere but want to have AP 4 4shot stormbolters? Or 5 shot heavy bolters like in the other thread? I dont want to offend but I have the feeling, there's some strong SM fanboyism going on

Sanguinary guard from BA have AP4 Storm bolters and have for several editions now. They aren't exactly terrifying. If you think things like that or 5 shot heavy bolters are anything to be feared in today's game, you probably don't see much in the way of competitive lists. (Not saying that's a bad thing, but when talking about balance issues, it really helps to be familiar with what's going on at the top tables.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IllumiNini wrote:

Also, I find it interesting that only 50% of people (at the time of this post) think that Storm Bolters should be buffed. I thought it would be more, but hoped it would be less haha

A good number of people on the Internet HATE the imperium/marines. Another decent amount want a hardline stance of "no buffs for anyone ever, nerf everything back." Another subset of people don't want any army but their own to get a buff. Yet another subset plays in a meta that is actually more casual than they think it is, and they have skewed experience with the quality of the item in question and the necessity of the buff. And an even further subset just wants to troll polls.

With all those combined, getting 50% agreement on something is actually pretty impressively high.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

Also, I find it interesting that only 50% of people (at the time of this post) think that Storm Bolters should be buffed. I thought it would be more, but hoped it would be less haha

A good number of people on the Internet HATE the imperium/marines. Another decent amount want a hardline stance of "no buffs for anyone ever, nerf everything back." Another subset of people don't want any army but their own to get a buff. Yet another subset plays in a meta that is actually more casual than they think it is, and they have skewed experience with the quality of the item in question and the necessity of the buff. And an even further subset just wants to troll polls.

With all those combined, getting 50% agreement on something is actually pretty impressively high.

Hahaha fair enough.

The first category never really appealed or made sense to me, and the second ever only made sense when talking about the game as a whole rather than about a codex, associated codeces and supplements (or similar such sub-groupings). The third category I think can be applied to everyone, but most people tend to either be sensible about nerfs to their army, get over it, or both. As for the last category, that's just the internet haha.

And to be honest, the impression I got from the thread that served as inspiration for this one was that 50% in favour of buffing Storm Bolters would be a bit on the low side.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I think the discussion shows a problem of the rapid fire rules more than anything else.

Actually that's a pretty fair point; has any tried just playing 7th edition with the old Rapid Fire rules? These actually also affected Hurricane Bolters quite noticeably on vehicles as well, since a Land Raider Crusader could deliver a full squad's worth of shooting on the move which an actual squad on the move could not.

I made mine have a heavy 3 firing option that can't be used as snapfire.

Let's grey knight units hunker down and unload if they need to!

jade_angel wrote:
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Or clean up the mess with Rapid-Fire, and call it Rapid-Fire 2. We have Hurricane Bolters already, which are basically "Rapid-Fire 3", but we won't call them that.

Rapid-Fire X: Fire X shots at full range, fire 2X shots at half range.

I think that might be a little too much. At Rapid Fire 3 you'd already be throwing out more shots at close range than most multi-shot heavy weapons. Not even Salvo weapons scale up that fast. Maybe something like:

Rapid Fire X = X shots at full range, X+1 shots at half range.

Give GK their own weapon for their wrist-mounted guns to keep them Assault. Nemesis Dreadbolters or some such nonsense.