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No, it's not all right.

You're stealing from the livlihood of those artist and sculptors who made the figures.

You want to stick it to the 'man', don't buy the product.

No, you don't *need* any of this, it's a want, a desire. Food is needed, air is needed. Miniatures are just flippin nice to have.

 Pacific wrote:

As for the rest, while I wouldn't quite put it on the same level in moral terms as baby baseball, yes it's wrong. And you'll find that the guys re-casting GW stuff (if you're taking the argument of "big, corporate, over-priced, they can afford to lose the sales") are probably also re-casting smaller boutique studios as well.

Yeah, there's a few ebay shops that sell recasts, and I've seen them sell recasts of Brother Vinni, Kromlech, MaxMini, and other boutique studios too.

 kronk wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt recasting bitz fine if it is for personal use? Didnt buttery recast an engine part and it was fine on the forum(Tear into me if im wrong, im not accusing anyone of anything. I just read the building the impossible thread that is all)

"I want more of this but don't want to pay for it" is not personal use and not protected.
.

But as said earlier, it is literally impossible for me to get the amount I need.

Here

here

and here.

3 versions of sculpted, White Scars shoulder pads, available for sale, directly from the creator (Games Workshop).

They take cash (in person), credit card, and paypal.

Those are preheresy symbols(Despite the fact White scars never had a pre heresy forgeworld, way to screw people over) so those are useless. thye look nothing like the current sumbol.

I look at it this way;

Can you legally buy the original, at any price, even one you cannot afford?

If Yes then its immoral to recast.

If No then it is morally acceptable to recast.

Recasting is wrong when there is a victim, if the figure is long OOP and someone recasts it then its ok to get it. You aren't harming anyone.

Recasting is a grey area, its not a case or definitive right or wrong. Even some manufacturers accept this.

Case Study 1.

For a long time now if you go to the Battltech forums and look about quietly you can get recasts of unseen, and Battlemechs rescaled for N gauge (which is IP infringement) this is done by the community for the community and the people who own the IP for Battletech and run the website know who is doing it. Thre bottom line is if you make N guage mechs on the side, and sell them so long as you take the trade elsewhere its ok.
Now that the unseen are coming back the bootleggers were quietly asked to stop producing some of the miniatures they were previously doing and because they were by the community for the community that was ok.

Case Study 2.

A few years ago some people right here on Dakka bought bootleg miniatures for 40K. We traded ideas quite openly, one of the successful projects was female Cadians, another were Cadian roughriders riding Moas. Now these were not recasts, but the concept is very similar because the miniatures made were Cadians and were made to fit with GW Cadian parts, it crossed the line more than Chapterhouse did on these regards.
GW was aware of our casting club, and did nothing, purportedly because it was a casting club, essentially very similar to a kickstarter with stretchgoals only. Those who backed the project got their stuff and afterwards the casting ended. GW never gave formal permission, it would be a bad move, but decided to leave the project alone.
Dakka had a lot of contact with this project, most of the backers were Dakka members and while we made our own short lived forums, it was mainly resolved via our community right here. Nobody complained or called us thieves.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Those are preheresy symbols(Despite the fact White scars never had a pre heresy forgeworld, way to screw people over) so those are useless. thye look nothing like the current sumbol.

"Despite the fact White scars never had a pre heresy forgeworld, way to screw people over" <--- I have no idea what this means.

The only difference between this shoulderpad and the one your counterfeiting is the location of the stripe.

Recasting is cool. It's a hobby and an art in itself.

 kronk wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

SNip[/img]

Not it is not. look, their is not out rim on the stripe to paint red while the inside stays yellow. I dont get how you dont see that.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Just because you want something (an OOP mini) doesn't mean you can have it

Except you can, quite easily. If something is OOP then I really don't care because it is OOP so quite literally the only people who will lose out are Ebay scalpers. Legally questionable but the odds of getting into any kind of legal difficulties due to buying a recast from ebay are astronomical.

A resculpt of an in production model/component is a different issue entirely.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Not it is not. look, their is not out rim on the stripe to paint red while the inside stays yellow. I dont get how you dont see that.

You can't paint a red stripe around the stripe?

You're moving the goal posts here.

"They don't have what I need!"

Here are 3 choices.

"Those aren't White Scars!"

Yes they are.

'I don't like them!"

Im not moving the goal posts. Those look nothing like the white scars chapter symbols. And that is why I opted not to use them.

I've recasted around $1000~ worth of models that are OOP, terrain, or already 3rd party (epic 3d prints, FW epic terrain, HH sculpted epic models not made by GW, so on) Terrain? It's OOP and absurdly expensive. I made masters and then spammed near perfect recasts. The 6-10mm epic/tactics group of gamers tend to 3d print + recast the MOST

The models I use in a store that are casted? My own custom resin bases.

 Guildenstern wrote:
No, it's not all right.

You're stealing from the livlihood of those artist and sculptors who made the figures.

You want to stick it to the 'man', don't buy the product.

No, you don't *need* any of this, it's a want, a desire. Food is needed, air is needed. Miniatures are just flippin nice to have.

You are correct here. I will still buy GW/PP products if I'm going to game with them

Digging through ebay for epic or warmaster models? No. I'll buy a master and recast. If they re-released the game I'd gladly dump WAY more money into the actual models.


As long as you don't sell it - or play in a GW/FLGS with it - it's fine IMO.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not moving the goal posts. Those look nothing like the white scars chapter symbols. And that is why I opted not to use them.

They look almost exactly like the White Scars logo. The only difference is an extra stripe.

You didn't want to buy them. THAT is why you opted not to use them.

Lie to yourself, not to me.

and no ridge. How can you say they look like the white scars symbon when the stripe molds into the lightning bolt and is higher up.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
and no ridge. How can you say they look like the white scars symbon when the stripe molds into the lightning bolt and is higher up.

I've already posted the side by side pictures. They are the same image.

/debate

You can justify your counterfeiting to yourself all you want, HSM1.

 kronk wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not moving the goal posts. Those look nothing like the white scars chapter symbols. And that is why I opted not to use them.

They look almost exactly like the White Scars logo. The only difference is an extra stripe.

You didn't want to buy them. THAT is why you opted not to use them.

Lie to yourself, not to me.

Until very recently, GW main sold White Scars pads - https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/White-Scars-Shoulder-Pads


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Get in touch with them - they might still have stock kicking around.

beast_gts wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not moving the goal posts. Those look nothing like the white scars chapter symbols. And that is why I opted not to use them.

They look almost exactly like the White Scars logo. The only difference is an extra stripe.

You didn't want to buy them. THAT is why you opted not to use them.

Lie to yourself, not to me.

Until very recently, GW main sold White Scars pads - https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/White-Scars-Shoulder-Pads

Hey, look! It's a lightning bolt with a stripe!

I'll point out the following :


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/205120.page#8615594


Obviously this is a guideline and cannot be expected to be exhaustive.

Please be sensible when posting.

Listen. I hate recasts. That is the reason I use german neberlwerfer models despite knowing where I can get recasts for actually less(my friend does) but I literally could not get what I wanted(I dont care what you say, those are not white scars symbols, their something else) so I had to resort to recasts. And I find nothing wrong with recasting shoulderpads.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Listen. I hate recasts. That is the reason I use german neberlwerfer models despite knowing where I can get recasts for actually less(my friend does) but I literally could not get what I wanted(I dont care what you say, those are not white scars symbols, their something else) so I had to resort to recasts. And I find nothing wrong with recasting shoulderpads.

This ebay seller has 4 legit packages of GW White Scar shoulder pads for sale. Tell us how many you're buying, HSM1.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/40K-Space-Marine-White-Scars-Chapter-Metal-Shoulder-Pads-Blister-Pack-/222074087131?hash=item33b4a5a6db:g:wn8AAOSwGOxXAV9E

Wait. I thought if you recanted it for your own use you were stealing from the eBay sellers who normally sell the item at extortionate rates. Personal Use is every bit as unethical as buying recasts, if you believe recasts are theft. One way or the other, you are keeping money away from somebody who wants to sells you OOP minis for dollars on the penny.


Also, isn't the White Scars symbol was a stylized kanji, the "middle" part of "Middle Kingdom"? Why is the preheresy version different?

Even though hotsauce man is a notorious yet hilarous troll with 12k posts - he has a point


ONLY SINCE YOU CAN NO LONGER GET THE OLD METAL PADS: If you want X Bitz part and cannot get the old metal White Scars one, SM Shouldpads are ABSURDLY EASY to two part inject a/b resin alumnite cast with entry level casting experience. If he tosses $60 into materials, ebay orders 10 of the old metal ones and casts 100~ thats up to him

When they're painted to tabletop standard - as long as he doesnt ebay them and another user strips the paint and finds out they are fake yellow/grey resin not white metal he should be in the clear.

By no means should he recast legs/head/bolters and so on. I've casted a few plasma guns for an IG army before, but I would feel iffy on recasting legs/actual bodies of models to mass produce.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Wait. I thought if you recanted it for your own use you were stealing from the eBay sellers who normally sell the item at extortionate rates. Personal Use is every bit as unethical as buying recasts, if you believe recasts are theft. One way or the other, you are keeping money away from somebody who wants to sells you OOP minis for dollars on the penny.


Also, isn't the White Scars symbol was a stylized kanji, the "middle" part of "Middle Kingdom"? Why is the preheresy version different?

This is what my other post was about. Not buying FW IG Epic Tanks for $40 for a 2.5 inch baneblade

 kronk wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Theft is theft.

It's counterfeiting, not theft. Still illegal, but covered by different laws.

Technically speaking, it's not counterfeiting either. It is a little grey, but essentially counterfeiting requires an element of deception (trying to pass the fake off as original) which the Chinese recasters do not.

In all likelihood the worst crime committed is copyright infringement, albeit at a pretty large scale.

I really don't care, judge not lest you be judged and all that, but I'd have far more of an issue with someone priming a fake and trying to sell it to me as an original than if have with someone selling me a fake, telling me it was fake, and pricing it accordingly.

 Stevefamine wrote:


ONLY SINCE YOU CAN NO LONGER GET THE OLD METAL PADS:

Not to be argumentative, but I'd like to add to that discussion.

I posted a like to an ebay seller with the legit GW White Scars shoulderpads, still in the GW package. Now where does his argument stand?

Someone out there sculpted / made that object.
They also have the benefit of making that part for sale or to license out that creation to others.
If someone else receives that product and makes their own copies: it is now product competing with the creator's.

This is why copy-write was invented: to allow invention to be rewarded and to eventually move the product to open domain when it runs out.

Recasting makes inventing pointless, it is a parasitic connection.
It is benefitting from someone else's design, their marketing and in this case the game they made.
The only reason the recast has worth, is due to the creator's efforts.

I personally get a bit upset when I do all the work and someone swoops in and profits from it.

I remember before there were Thousand sons add-on bits I had modified and sculpted on my own bits and made a mold.
This was not re-casting because it was my own creation and GW did not have anything at that time AND I used it only for my own purposes: not for sale.

This is where I see the most legitimate use of molding up stuff for a game and remain clean with the law.
Buying recasts is against the law is the blunt response but it does pose a strong ethical argument against as well.

 Azreal13 wrote:


In all likelihood the worst crime committed is copyright infringement, albeit at a pretty large scale.

You're probably right.

 Talizvar wrote:

Recasting makes inventing pointless, it is a parasitic connection.

....if the recasts are for a still in production product.

 Talizvar wrote:

Buying recasts is against the law is the blunt response but it does pose a strong ethical argument against as well.

Actually, in most countries, it could only be classed as illegal if you could unequivocally prove the purchaser knew with certainty they were buying an illegal copy. Making and selling them is illegal, buying is largely down to the customer's conscience.

Ok, another Idea, Broken Bitz. Lets say a bike handle breaks of(as has happened to me many many times. I loose it. Is it ok to make a small green stuff recast of that? or is that considered wrong.

You're comparing a repair job with green-stuff to recasting?

Also, lose not loose.

Also, you can buy a bike handle here:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/40K-Chaos-Space-Marine-Bikes-Handle-Bars-Bits-1-Bitz-/381580332711?hash=item58d7f5cea7:g:BqkAAOSwJQdW9Z44

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Space-Marine-BIKE-HANDLE-BARS-Bits-40K-/361519382619?hash=item542c3c005b:g:wsoAAMXQ74JTTtJU

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

Recasting makes inventing pointless, it is a parasitic connection.

....if the recasts are for a still in production product.

Which the creator would be able to dust off (if out of production as you infer) at any point facing increased demand... oh wait, not in your scenario.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

Buying recasts is against the law is the blunt response but it does pose a strong ethical argument against as well.

Actually, in most countries, it could only be classed as illegal if you could unequivocally prove the purchaser knew with certainty they were buying an illegal copy. Making and selling them is illegal, buying is largely down to the customer's conscience.

Would then the bought product fall under the same category as "possession of stolen goods"?
Which typically can be confiscated?