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Multiple Choice, Should these Models be vehicles instead of MC/GMC?

The non-MC/GMC models mentioned are up their because they are robotic/mechanical in some way and are roughly the same size as dreadnoughts/Killa Kanz.

You cant change Crisis Suits and Broadsides from Monsterous Creature to Walker because they are Infantry and not Monsterous Creatures.

Merellin wrote:
You cant change Crisis Suits and Broadsides from Monsterous Creature to Walker because they are Infantry and not Monsterous Creatures.

Yeah that was meant to mean they become vehicles, they can stay troops for all I care, but they are roughly the same size as my Killa Kanz, so why aren't they vehicles?

Same as above, but including wraithguard too.
None of those are MC's to begin with and are nowhere close to being a vehicle.

IMO, the only ones that should be changed to a walker are the wraith knight, stormsurge and riptide.



The rest are either not MC's to begin with or are very minor as it is.
A wraith lord is nowhere near as good as it used to be, and has been a MC for countless years now.
Makes no sense to make it a walker.

.

The Wraithlord, Wraithknight, Riptide, Stormsurge, and other models like the Dreadknight really should be vehicles. These are MC's only to make them more impressive to sell models really, they really should be vehicles, they're manufactured constructs, and the MC rules for most of these units just make them far and away more powerful than a vehicle equivalent. In fact, the Wraithlord was once known as an Eldar Dreadnought and *was* a vehicle, though it's also probably the only one of the group where it probably makes the least difference.

The smaller guys like Broadsides & Wraithguard are fine as infantry.

I like how you can have a open topped vehicle and still call it a "monster" : P


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Dread knight should also be a walker.

 oldzoggy wrote:
I like how you can have a open topped vehicle and still call it a "monster" : P


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Dread knight should also be a walker.

Can't believe I forgot about that stupid Dread Knight. I tried adding it in, but unfortunately the poll isn't smart enough to move votes around and I have CDO ( Alphabetical order) and can't put it at the bottom

The baby carrier should be a walker - all of the baove should be except Wraith Lord and Wraith Guard which are the only ones that are not plioted machines............. at least one of the tau ones should be open topped.

Unless the vehciles rules are made to match the GMC / MC rules, anothign else is just wanting cheese for your own army..............

It doesn't matter because it's all arbitrary. The only reason people have such issue with it is because of the disparity in effective rules between Walkers and MCs. If the rules were balanced or even if the shoe was on the other foot your wouldn't see so much complaining about it.

 CrownAxe wrote:
It doesn't matter because it's all arbitrary. The only reason people have such issue with it is because of the disparity in effective rules between Walkers and MCs. If the rules were balanced or even if the shoe was on the other foot your wouldn't see so much complaining about it.

I agree 100% with you. But since GW is doing this specifically to enhance the effectiveness of their new toys, it becomes a problem that the community has to deal with at some point. I for one really hope GW unfeths itself in the near future, but until then it boils down to house ruling and what not. A number of players have boycotted Eldar/Tau players, not because those players are necessarily TFG/WAAC but because they just don't like the fact that so much of the Eldar codex is cheese and a large amount of the Tau codex is either cheese or garbage, so you either are super competitive or you get wiped.

Semper - you hit the nail on the head.
Currently there is no middle ground as it were.
Units are either overly strong or completely useless.

Meaning it's impossible to achieve a regular army without hindering yourself on unit selection.

What Semper said, ill play eldar and tau, if there is no one else, but i pretty much accept its already over.

Tau and eldar problems boil down to to much AP 2, and to much warp fethery taking place. No one enjoys playing them.

I really wish GW would outsource the rule making to a company like WotC, or just anyone who has a much better track record at making rules.

Is not just because the rules, is because the logic.

The same no one is asking to make a chaos predator a monster creature to make it better because is not logic, is a vehicle.

Now tell me the difference between a Riptide and a Soul Grinder. Why is the riptide a MC and the Soul Grinder a vehicle?

Not just that, half of the Soul Grinder is "alive" haha


Or better, the difference between a stormsurge and a tau piranha: bot are not live, bot use electronic systems to work, both have visible pilots.....But one is vehicle and the other is a MC xD. Then why not the tau piranha are flying MC?

I'd also like to turn Ferrus Manus in to a vehicle.

His captured head would have made a great Helbrute.

The Stormsurge is the weirdest moment for GMCs because it's clearly piloted by multiple crewmen. For the Riptide, Wraithknight and even Dreadknight you can argue that you'd need to whittle down the wounds to put their singular pilot to death to stop it. I highly doubt a Stormsurge would still function as well with 2 dead crewmen as with it's full crew, or does all crewmen remain alive until it takes the last wound, upon which all of them spontaniously combust?

On the subject of Wraith Units, call me crazy but I think they should have no armor saves instead of being turned into vehicles. Wraithbone is suppose to be super-tough, but it's not armor at all; Wraith Constructs are effectively walking into combat naked. It would be a good mechanics chance too if they just had incredibly high Toughness compared to models of similar class, but no armor.

The Riptide and SS no doubt. I'd argue the Knight and MAYBE the lord.

Riptide and Stormsurge should probably be walkers, as should the Wraithknight. Wraithknights were fine as MC's actually, but now that they are GC's...

I would agree with some others and say that really the Nemesis Dreadknight should also be a walker.

The suits larger than XV9 should probably be vehicles at that point
Wraithknight kind of makes sense that it's a GMC at least, going by the wraithguard and wraithlord stuff, but it's initiative should probably be a bit lower. Really they just need to define the walker rules a bit more, probably bring them more in line with the MC rules but have them still susceptible to stuff like melta and haywire. I don't really feel like the damage table should fit with them that much, they need their own one to represent them a bit more than the catch all table and whats more likely to happen than giving them a new table is to just make them ignore it.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
On the subject of Wraith Units, call me crazy but I think they should have no armor saves instead of being turned into vehicles. Wraithbone is suppose to be super-tough, but it's not armor at all; Wraith Constructs are effectively walking into combat naked. It would be a good mechanics chance too if they just had incredibly high Toughness compared to models of similar class, but no armor.

I think they tried to balance the toughness of it with both the toughness and the armour value rather than outright make them impossible to wound for most small arms fire. I look at it getting through both as the shot managed to find a weakpoint like a joint.

None of the above. I'd prefer to see walkers turned into MCs.

Once upon a time the Writhlord was called the Eldar Dreadnaught... I agree that everything from the Riptide up should be a walker, and the Stormsurge should be an open topped super heavy walker. Sadly, I don't see it happening any time soon.

 insaniak wrote:
None of the above. I'd prefer to see walkers turned into MCs.

This. Everything being on the toughness,wounds,saves system would be far preferable. Use keywords and weapons tailored against them to deliniate between the two. (Against models with the vehicle keyword... Etc)

 Eldarain wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
None of the above. I'd prefer to see walkers turned into MCs.

This. Everything being on the toughness,wounds,saves system would be far preferable. Use keywords and weapons tailored against them to deliniate between the two. (Against models with the vehicle keyword... Etc)

No. Vehicles are fun. They can get stunned, lose their weapons or mobility, blow up...monstrous creatures just lose a wound and when the last wound is gone, they vanish. Boring,

Backfire wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
None of the above. I'd prefer to see walkers turned into MCs.

This. Everything being on the toughness,wounds,saves system would be far preferable. Use keywords and weapons tailored against them to deliniate between the two. (Against models with the vehicle keyword... Etc)

No. Vehicles are fun. They can get stunned, lose their weapons or mobility, blow up...monstrous creatures just lose a wound and when the last wound is gone, they vanish. Boring,

Right, so because that is so boring, i feel the eldar and Tau have been left out of the fun. So were going to change all of their MC and GMCs to become Vehicles

Everything that is not a creature should be a vehicle.

It was bad enough when they changed the Wraithlords. With the Tau, it's ridiculously out of control.

I'm not seeing many reasons for things being changed here.

If we went back to old school vehicle rules (no hull points) then it would be a bit different.

Backfire wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
None of the above. I'd prefer to see walkers turned into MCs.

This. Everything being on the toughness,wounds,saves system would be far preferable. Use keywords and weapons tailored against them to deliniate between the two. (Against models with the vehicle keyword... Etc)

No. Vehicles are fun. They can get stunned, lose their weapons or mobility, blow up...monstrous creatures just lose a wound and when the last wound is gone, they vanish. Boring,

AoS (despite what you might think of it) has a great system in place for the diminishing capabilities of multiwound creatures. Warmachine does as well. Plenty of inspiration to improve the inherent imbalance of the two mechanics.

Wraith units should be MC/GC, but should be appropriately costed or have an AoS-esque system for MC applied. They are spirit beings piloting bone constructs, hardly mechanical constructs (unless you make them immune to Haywire or something like that).

Dreadknight and Riptide/Stormsurge/Supremacy Suit should be Walkers. Possibly the Canoptek Spyder too (honestly, since when has that been a living being).

This is a weird poll to have when the argument is for Walkers to be MCs and GMCs. It's like the OP is deaf to the general complaint against vehicles in 40k.

SJ