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 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Can you post your "indisputable and easily verifiable facts", your statement is disprovable by asking the same question you did, since it is impossible to know all the data (according to you) how can you be so sure there are dissatisfied companies that are just "too shy to speak".

Because Dark Severance has done his groundwork from your words I get you just assume things without doing any groundwork.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page

I'm assuming it's all in there...

 MLaw wrote:

 mad robot wrote:
A simple 2 minute video showing the casts being removed from the mold would pretty much put all the hub-bub to rest.

I wonder why they haven't done that...?

I recall some conversations in PM about 3d printing between you and I where I was told I had to figure some things out for myself. I think they might be taking that approach.
Honestly, if they have found a process that brings something to the industry, do you really expect them to give that up without a fight? Yeah, I want to know how they do it but I don't blame them for not doing so.

EDIT: I gotta say, I've received things from kickstarters done by Prodos and I didn't know Prodos had a hand in it. White Dragon's 15mm comes to mind.. my reaction was pretty much "huh".. I was admittedly annoyed that I didn't notice or they didn't disclose Prodos' involvement. I am bothered by that a little just like I felt put-off after someone pointed out that Prodos' contact info on their page is misleading. Those things are deceptive IMO.. them withholding their technique though, that's a legit trade secret.

I agree, they have every right to protect anything they see as a trade secret. But then why post a picture of the mold and what appears to be the resulting cast? If they are so proud of the process, why no close ups of the cast from that picture? No one, that I'm aware of, has seen anything that serves as evidence of a new or ground-breaking process. All I've seen so far is one still picture that shows little to no detail.

To be clear, I am not intending these comments to be negative,. I simply don't understand the motivation of a company who makes a full-page blog post about their "new technology in miniature industry" and then doesn't show anything about that technology. If that evidence is out there, I will be happy to stand corrected

 mad robot wrote:

To be clear, I am not intending these comments to be negative,. I simply don't understand the motivation of a company who makes a full-page blog post about their "new technology in miniature industry" and then doesn't show anything about that technology. If that evidence is out there, I will be happy to stand corrected

I am assuming they feel the pictures of the finished product are enouph evidence?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Can you post your "indisputable and easily verifiable facts", your statement is disprovable by asking the same question you did, since it is impossible to know all the data (according to you) how can you be so sure there are dissatisfied companies that are just "too shy to speak".

Because Dark Severance has done his groundwork from your words I get you just assume things without doing any groundwork.

I didn't say EVER that there are definitely companies out there screwed over by Prodos. I used words like "if they", "not necessarily", and "hypothetical" along with the use of question marks; if you read that as an absolute then that is a massive reading comprehension failure on your part. The indisputable facts that I stated were that there are KS backers that were screwed over and that Prodos had tried and continues to try their best to hide that (unsuccessfully) from new customers and then extrapolated the POSSIBILITY that they'd do the same to businesses if pressured. I suggested that he not assume the best of them (despite his extensive groundwork that he detailed AFTER my post) and instead work from the pessimistic viewpoint of them at their worst. I guess what I actually wrote is not as exciting to respond to so you decided to extrapolate from my post while at the same time chiding me from extrapolating from Prodos' verifiable public actions.

 warboss wrote:
Prodos CONTINUES to disappoint kickstarter backers and prioritize new customers and future customers

 warboss wrote:
That's much more than I thought you did.

I'm just advising caution as their shifting priorities seem to come part and parcel with screwing over those who already paid in favor of those about to pay (or recently paid).

If they weren't a viable source for 3d sculpting, 3d printing and/or casting then I probably would not have bothered. However since they are and being in the business world, I have learned that it is best to not simply turn a blind eye away from someone. Otherwise I would probably not deal with quite a few corporations but I don't have that luxury.

Advising caution isn't a bad thing. As I have said before I'm more in a wait and see. I am curious how things will turn out for the Demi-Gods kickstarter. That doesn't mean I haven't look into and still looking at the options. I'm in a more wait and see, as there are issues that need to be proven with actions.

I don't agree with the reasoning behind the practice but as a business person I can partly understand it. From my perspective it isn't so much they are putting a priority on new customers but have segregated the project. What I mean is that AvP is essentially been isolated as its own project. They ran out of funding from long ago all the changes and jumping the gun on casting, having to destroy and other things. Other than what they pooled to do an initial large shipment, the rest of it has been cut like cancer. No new money is really being put into it. All money generated from it, focus on that.

Yes they could probably shift funds to pay for and finish up what they have done. I don't know if there are other politics involved because of Fox, having dealt with IP projects I can bet there is. (For example this is hypothetical but one I have seen with other companies. Depending on how they pay royalties, if they shift money to AvP that could skew the books and potentially cost additional or more money having to be paid to Fox). By segregating it out, that lets them focus revenue and resources on continuing to grow the business, which they need to continue function as a company.

If they don't focus on existing and new projects that has more long term effects.

Given that even if they close the books on AvP and deliver, it is already clearly stated by individuals that they will hunt and burn them down every vocal chance they get. It reminds me of when I used to be in the restaurant business, the old adage, don't piss off the cook serving your food.

I don't agree with either methods on both sides, from Prodos's side of things or from the consumers side. However I can understand the choices behind the business decision. It isn't an easy choice but one I have seen made a few times. I can also understand angre and resentment from the consumer side of things.

 Azreal13 wrote:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page

I'm assuming it's all in there...

But this is just the AVP and assuming what happens in AVP happens in the work they do as contractors is a big assumption, especially when there is evidence to the contrary.

@Dark Severance: I find your reasoning and assumptions valid in the preceding post even if the end results from a decidedly consumer/backer perspective are very unfavorable. Unfortunately, the backers aren't to blame for Prodos' likely jumping the gun yet are also paying the price alongside them. Eh, I've made and clarified my original point enough regardless.


The closeups of the unicast fig do look nice though.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page

I'm assuming it's all in there...

But this is just the AVP and assuming what happens in AVP happens in the work they do as contractors is a big assumption, especially when there is evidence to the contrary.

And? The KS is what Warboss was referring to, see his subsequent post for confirmation.

 warboss wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Can you post your "indisputable and easily verifiable facts", your statement is disprovable by asking the same question you did, since it is impossible to know all the data (according to you) how can you be so sure there are dissatisfied companies that are just "too shy to speak".

Because Dark Severance has done his groundwork from your words I get you just assume things without doing any groundwork.

I didn't say EVER that there are definitely companies out there screwed over by Prodos. I used words like "if they", "not necessarily", and "hypothetical" along with the use of question marks; if you read that as an absolute then that is a massive reading comprehension failure on your part. The indisputable facts that I stated were that there are KS backers that were screwed over and that Prodos had tried and continues to try their best to hide that (unsuccessfully) from new customers and then extrapolated the POSSIBILITY that they'd do the same to businesses if pressured. I suggested that he not assume the best of them (despite his extensive groundwork that he detailed AFTER my post) and instead work from the pessimistic viewpoint of them at their worst. I guess what I actually wrote is not as exciting to respond to so you decided to extrapolate from my post while at the same time chiding me from extrapolating from Prodos' verifiable public actions.

Cute, so your hypothetical extrapolations have the same ground as facts.

Can we set a framework here?

AVP is AVP and what happens there is more or less contained there, there is a possibility the company behaves like that in its entirety, there is the possibility this is an isolated case because of royalties been involved.
There are evidences that Prodos delivers on time their other projects (thought I would argue I got my warzone pledge two years after everybody else got it because they simply mistyped my address every single time, but hey I am a firm believer of not attributing malice were incompetence would be enouph).
There are evidence of other companies using them as manufacturers and it worked well enouph for them to be happy about it.
There are also evidence of companies been at least weary of showing they work with Prodos because of the AVP internet lynch mob.

This thread is about a revolutionary manufacturing method with examples been reviewed by unaffiliated reviewers so if it is a scam it is a really elaborate one involving many persons who would gain nothing from it.
This technique could be a great alternative for companies (mostly boardgame ones) who want to compete with the big ones and simply cannot afford neither china nor the huge print runs china requires.


Look I am not saying AVP is been handled even remotely decent (forget good) and I am not saying you do not have the right to be frustrated, but I feel it has gone to far, especially when you try to intimidate other companies from using Prodos, because no other reason but AVP and if I am allowed to go to simplistic hypothetical scenarios (as everybody does) it can just be the IP holder complicating everything, of course the truth probably is in putting the blame to both.

 warboss wrote:
@Dark Severance: I find your reasoning and assumptions valid in the preceding post even if the end results from a decidedly consumer/backer perspective are very unfavorable. Unfortunately, the backers aren't to blame for Prodos' likely jumping the gun yet are also paying the price alongside them.

I definitely agree that the backers aren't to blame, even if a few are overzealous. There are multiple people's fault that the blame goes to, which isn't purely Prodos but is definitely not the backers fault.

Like I said I don't agree with the business decision they made moving forward, but it is something I can understand. No matter what direction they chose, it was going to be harmful... which is more harmful and beneficial long term, time will tell.

I hope I never have to be responsible for a similar decision, as a business person I'm fairly sure I would have made the choice to finish up and deliver despite costs just so I can officially close that book and move on. Saying that now is easy, compared to having to make the decision while dealing with other factors though.

As mentioned before - Prodos has also had slow deliveries to at least one of the companies that have contracted their services - the infamous Blaine on giant lizard miniature for Mantic.

So, at the very least, their reputation is not spotless.

Add in their Kickstarter problems, and they begin to resemble a Dalmation...

Their work is excellent - when they get around to it. It is the question of when that causes problems.

My suspicion is that they have a cash flow problem - one that may clear up in time.

But that cash flow problem causes a production flow problem.

I am not saying don't use their services - I am saying caveat emptor.

The Auld Grump

Oh that is interesting, got more info about it? probably missed it in this thread.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 warboss wrote:
There have NEVER been ANY issues as a contractor? So you've followed up every single person/company that hired them since their inception, not just the happy public ones they tell you about?

A single dissatisfied customer tends to speak louder than a hundred satisfied ones, generally for good reasons. I think by now we would have heard at least rumours of poor handling of company customers, had it happened.

Do you mean rumors like the ones that claimed two of Mantic's Kickstarters were late to deliver or incomplete because of their resin contractor, rumored to be Prodos?

That's what I don't get. Nobody here is saying Prodos is 100% trustworthy. We get it.. they've messed up.. in at least one case royally.
However, I challenge anyone to name a company that hasn't had at least a spot of contention. Particularly any companies that go out and try Kickstarting.

That's actually an interesting point.. prior to Kickstarter, when all we had was actual pre-orders and regular orders of existing products, there were SO many fewer problems. Mantic has earned a lot of bad marks in my book.. but frankly none of them would've been there without Kickstarter. I think the only company I've managed to harbor bad feelings about without any help from kickstarter is the old geedub.

Reaper has run at least four Kickstarters and hasn't suffered any blowback that I've seen. CMON, too. Dreamforge suffered delays, but the company's regard is currently as high as it has ever been.

Palladium's previous preorders make most Kickstarter failures look like punctual success stories. The hHeresy dragon also caused quite a bit of drama if I recall.

And I doubt you hate GW for preorder related shenanigans. There are plenty of mini companies that are despised for similar good reasons, like PP, Battlefield, DUST studios, Asmodee/Fantasy Flight, Wizkids, Wayland (as a distributor and retailer), Mierce, Mongoose and so on.

Actually Reapers first KS was pretty badly run. People were constantly wondering wtf their stuff was from what I remember of the comments, especially since shipping was erratic and stretched over 4? months or so. Nobody knew who was next or how they were arranging stuff.

CMON got a lot of flak for their zombicide char cards not having markers in z2. DFG wasn't so hot when people were wondering where their stuff was. I remember that cause I was one of the few who ONLY backed for wave 3 and I looked at comments here and on KS every now and then.

Otoh, most of these complaints went away when people finally got their stuff

Sining wrote:
Actually Reapers first KS was pretty badly run. People were constantly wondering wtf their stuff was from what I remember of the comments, especially since shipping was erratic and stretched over 4? months or so. Nobody knew who was next or how they were arranging stuff.

CMON got a lot of flak for their zombicide char cards not having markers in z2. DFG wasn't so hot when people were wondering where their stuff was. I remember that cause I was one of the few who ONLY backed for wave 3 and I looked at comments here and on KS every now and then.

Otoh, most of these complaints went away when people finally got their stuff

At a guess those companies didn't repeatedly lie to their backers or generally treat them with contempt. I understand things don't always go to plan and things can run late, and whilst that is part of the reason for being pissed at Prodos the problem with them is about much more than that. I think the scale of anger from backers has much more to do with the attitude of the company than simply the failure on delivery. And that's why it's relevant to this thread btw, you can count me as another who wouldn't buy or back something from any company if I knew Prodos were involved in the production.

Then there was CMON handling of Relic Knights...

And sedition wars

I think Sedition Wars was the first KS I ever backed. It helped me to set appropriately low expectations for all future KS projects I would go on to support.

..and for the record, Sedition Wars is one of the many games on my shelf where I *wish* unicast had been an option


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
As mentioned before - Prodos has also had slow deliveries to at least one of the companies that have contracted their services - the infamous Blaine on giant lizard miniature for Mantic.

So, at the very least, their reputation is not spotless.

Add in their Kickstarter problems, and they begin to resemble a Dalmation...

Their work is excellent - when they get around to it. It is the question of when that causes problems.

My suspicion is that they have a cash flow problem - one that may clear up in time.

But that cash flow problem causes a production flow problem.

I am not saying don't use their services - I am saying caveat emptor.

The Auld Grump

It's true Prodos cast up the Blaine mini. I've heard the same about their ability to meet the demand but I don't know if it's true. If it were, I'm not sure why Mantic would continue to use them to produce the Archfiend and Elemental.

My understanding was that Blaine on Dino was being done by someone else, but then the quantity needed was more than expected so they went with prodos to supplement the production. Again Mantic screwed up (shocker I know right?) and didn't order enough so they asked prodos for more, which they had to squeeze into the manufacturing lineup and make bunches of smaller batches. When Mantic finally realized that they lost 200 orders in their great computer system they needed even more. They never came out and said it, but the feeling was at some point prodos had told them they couldn't do anymore, I don't know if it was because of costs, mold expiration or what have you, but eventually I think they fixed the issue (probably threw money at it) and more Blaines have been produced. So not completely Prodos fault, but if they couldn't produce enough in the timeframe Mantic had asked for they should not have taken the contract.

Well, it sounded like Prodos did produce what they were initially contracted for. It was Mantic who screwed that up and had to scramble to get more made.

I've backed a few Kickstarters that Prodos did the production on. The stuff was delivered more or less on time with good quality. Hell, even though my Warzone stuff was late, they still got it to me and even threw in freebies as compensation. AVP really seems to be their main sore point and is the one that's created the most vocal detractors.

And if you want a small company with a clean track record, I would go with Anvil Industry.

Has anyone compiled any sort of list of the projects that Prodos has worked on?

Genuinely curious.

All I know of are their own, Blaine via Kings of War, Demigods Rising... what else?

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Has anyone compiled any sort of list of the projects that Prodos has worked on?

Genuinely curious.

All I know of are their own, Blaine via Kings of War, Demigods Rising... what else?

White Dragon's 15mm project (with favorable outcome afaik). I feel like I heard of another but I'm drawing a blank.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Has anyone compiled any sort of list of the projects that Prodos has worked on?

Genuinely curious.

I literally had typed up this list at work the other day. I removed it from my scratchpad yesterday. Since I'm at work these are from memory, I apologize if I got some wrong and doesn't include non-Kickstarter projects. I'm missing quite a few but will have to dig through emails and messages. I put (?) next to ones I can't verify because I'm not at home. I also didn't include projects that didn't fund, but has done 3d prints and some casting from them.

Prodos Ran:
- Mutant Chronicles Warzon
- Alien vs Predator

Prodos Involved:
- Demigods Rising: 3d printed masters, UniCast for miniatures
- Fragged Empire: 3d printed masters, casting, 3d sculpting(?)
- Miniature13: 3d printed masters, casting
- Atlantis Miniatures - 28mm Golbins, Orcs, and Trolls: 3d printed masters(?)
- XTerra: 3d printing masters
- Infamy the Big Smoke: 3d printing masters
- Mantic stuff: various masters, casting (I believe they have been part of 3 of their Kickstarters)
- Wolsung - 3d printed masters, casting
- The Devil's Run: Route 666: 3d printed masters
- Marine Tactical Unit - 15mm Scale Miniatures: 3d printed masters, casting
- Panzerfauste: Mechanised Warfare in a Mythical Realm: 3d printed masters
- Fantasy Resin Custom Miniatures Collection: 3d printed masters(?)

There are 6 that I left out. They specifically didn't advertise they used Prodos but we discussed a few things in messenger that isn't my place to list them. They did not list the name because of the negative connotations that was associated with them.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Has anyone compiled any sort of list of the projects that Prodos has worked on?

Genuinely curious.

All I know of are their own, Blaine via Kings of War, Demigods Rising... what else?

They did the resins for the second Demigods kickstarter after Titanforge gak the bed on quality and then pretty much refused to address the crappy castings. The Prodos mini's that were made were done pretty quickly, and the quality was really good.

And speaking of the Demigods kickstarter (if you want a good example of a kickstarter going to hell in a hand-basket, look there), since the plastic pieces aren't going to be made, Prodos is going to be doing the board game pieces in the Unicast, and in a few weeks we should see the first production casts being made and shown. So given a month's time or so we'll have a pretty good look at the capabilities of Prodos producing the miniatures, and the quality.

 Dark Severance wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Has anyone compiled any sort of list of the projects that Prodos has worked on?

Genuinely curious.

I literally had typed up this list at work the other day. I removed it from my scratchpad yesterday. Since I'm at work these are from memory, I apologize if I got some wrong and doesn't include non-Kickstarter projects. I'm missing quite a few but will have to dig through emails and messages. I put (?) next to ones I can't verify because I'm not at home. I also didn't include projects that didn't fund, but has done 3d prints and some casting from them.

Prodos Ran:
- Mutant Chronicles Warzon
- Alien vs Predator

Prodos Involved:
- Demigods Rising: 3d printed masters, UniCast for miniatures
- Fragged Empire: 3d printed masters, casting, 3d sculpting(?)
- Miniature13: 3d printed masters, casting
- Atlantis Miniatures - 28mm Golbins, Orcs, and Trolls: 3d printed masters(?)
- XTerra: 3d printing masters
- Infamy the Big Smoke: 3d printing masters
- Mantic stuff: various masters, casting (I believe they have been part of 3 of their Kickstarters)
- Wolsung - 3d printed masters, casting
- The Devil's Run: Route 666: 3d printed masters
- Marine Tactical Unit - 15mm Scale Miniatures: 3d printed masters, casting
- Panzerfauste: Mechanised Warfare in a Mythical Realm: 3d printed masters
- Fantasy Resin Custom Miniatures Collection: 3d printed masters(?)

There are 6 that I left out. They specifically didn't advertise they used Prodos but we discussed a few things in messenger that isn't my place to list them. They did not list the name because of the negative connotations that was associated with them.

There are some bigger names beyond Mantic but while I'd provide the info with the best intentions I have no doubt the knowledge would be used for evil.

 RivenSkull wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Has anyone compiled any sort of list of the projects that Prodos has worked on?

Genuinely curious.

All I know of are their own, Blaine via Kings of War, Demigods Rising... what else?

They did the resins for the second Demigods kickstarter after Titanforge gak the bed on quality and then pretty much refused to address the crappy castings. The Prodos mini's that were made were done pretty quickly, and the quality was really good.

And speaking of the Demigods kickstarter (if you want a good example of a kickstarter going to hell in a hand-basket, look there), since the plastic pieces aren't going to be made, Prodos is going to be doing the board game pieces in the Unicast, and in a few weeks we should see the first production casts being made and shown. So given a month's time or so we'll have a pretty good look at the capabilities of Prodos producing the miniatures, and the quality.

Is Prodos responsible for the Demigods KS going to hell or brought in for cleanup or something else?

Sad to see Titanforge going the way they did. Most of the X-terra stuff was actually nice and it was delivered in a timely manner to I think like 95% with a few people chiming in for a few months after about PM messups or address changes. I have to look at the pieces again. I didn't notice Prodos' involvement in that project.

The list is bigger than I thought it would be too. Does anyone know if they had any hand in the Maxmini Green Alliance KS? That one is (as I understand at least) going through some issues.

 MLaw wrote:
Is Prodos responsible for the Demigods KS going to hell or brought in for cleanup or something else?

Sad to see Titanforge going the way they did. Most of the X-terra stuff was actually nice and it was delivered in a timely manner to I think like 95% with a few people chiming in for a few months after about PM messups or address changes. I have to look at the pieces again. I didn't notice Prodos' involvement in that project.

Prodos is doing cleanup. They did provide a few things to Demigods on credit, quickly start the modifications to 3d sculpting and then got their prints done. They are tooling the UniCast molds for them currently.

Prodos did the 3d masters for some of the items for TitanForges XTerra. TitanForge did their own casting. It is my understanding there was an issue with TitanForge and Demigods.

They were not involved with MaxMini Green Alliance, as far as I'm aware.

 MLaw wrote:

Is Prodos responsible for the Demigods KS going to hell or brought in for cleanup or something else?

Prodos is doing cleanup for the second time with the Unicast.

Demigods has been managed pretty poorly itself, and with people complaining about Prodos's kickstarter, that's why I included that statement.