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Traditio wrote:

Azreal wrote:Did "loki's fallacy" come up on your "fallacy of the day" calendar or something?

Loki's fallacy:

Various deities: "We're sick of you, Loki. We're going to chop off your head now."

Loki: "Fine. But can only cut at the neck. No shoulders. No head."

Various deities begin to squabble over precisely where the neck is.

I'm not going to have a verbal dispute about something that should be patently obvious to anyone without a personal interest.

Right, so you not only don't know the history, you aren't applying it correctly.

It is, properly, Loki's Wager fallacy, where he bet that he would give up his head if he lost his bet, but when it came to claiming his head, he demanded that the dwarves (not other deities) had no right to his neck. Hence the argument about where the head ends and the neck begins.

What it actually means, in a modern sense, is making an argument that discussing a topic is meaningless because the topic cannot be defined.

(I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you BTW, as you brought it up!)

My point was, and remains, that "cheese" can be defined, as it is your thread, your poll and your right to set the parameters. You have simply not bothered, as, let's be honest, it's the conflict you're looking for, not any reasoned discussion.

Essentially though, from a practical viewpoint, it would be very difficult to define cheese, as it is often subjective, and, as a consequence, a tight definition for the purposes of this discussion, even though that definition would be largely arbitrary, and it would require a lot of time and effort to precisely define what was and wasn't cheesy.

Hence my assertion that this poll, and this entire thread, is basically redundant.

Much better to pull things out of your arse as it suits your arguments and prolong the conflict I guess, eh?

Traditio wrote:
If 5+ reanimation protocols isn't OP, then it seems scarcely correct to say that adding 1 to it is broken.

Ah, I see, let's just dismiss a 50% increase in the chance of saving a model as "just adding +1 to it".

And even if I did say it, my problem wouldn't be the fact that it's "free." My problem would be the fact that the bonus itself is too good, whether or not it's free.

This is a terrible argument. Virtually any rule is balanced if the cost is appropriate. Outside of obvious absurd things like "you automatically win the game" there is no such thing as a bonus that is too good, only one that is too good for the price you pay. And when you're getting something for free it's very hard to argue that you're paying the fair price for it.

Except, not. The aspect host basically allows you to take whatever you want. Same with the wraith construct auxillary.

The battle company? Not so much. It's much more restrictive, very much like the Necron Decurion.

I don't know, the battle company seems to be exactly the kind of list you've been playing since before you had formations. It doesn't limit you very much.

Let's assume the Wraithknight automatically kills a unit every turn.

I see no reason to assume this.

You do realize that this is an assumption in your favor, right? If you want to assume that the Wraithknight does even less damage then that's fine with me.

It's 8 units.4 marine squads and 4 rhinos.

Oh, I see, 4x 5-man squads, not 4-5 squads. Good thing I used the low end of that for my example.

Why should I assume that the wraithknight only kills 1 unit per turn?

Because you're not a bad player and you know how to space out your units so that it can't kill two at once? There's no rule that says your marines have to stay embarked until their transport is destroyed. You put 8 units on the table and make sure that your opponent can't kill more than one per turn.

That wraithknight has the capability of killing up to 3 or 4 units per turn, if the dice are in the eldar player's favor.

No, it really doesn't. The absolute most it can kill is two, assuming it fires its D-weapons at two different Rhinos and destroys both of them (not a very likely outcome, btw). It only gets to kill 3-4 if you make a terrible strategic decision and allow the Eldar player to take advantage of the "kill a transport, charge the unit" rule. And at that point we might as well be talking about how many units the Wraithknight kills if the Eldar player decides not to shoot or charge.

Traditio wrote:

Let's assume the Wraithknight automatically kills a unit every turn.

I see no reason to assume this.

Your MSU marines are 8-10 units

It's 8 units.4 marine squads and 4 rhinos.

and your test gives the Wraithknight 6 turns to kill all of them. At the end of 6 turns you have at least two obsec units on objectives, while the Wraithknight can control one at most. You win 2-1 on objectives.

The wraithknight comes with 2 ranged-D cannons and is a jump gargantuan monstrous creature. Furthermore, the rules clearly permit assaulting a unit that had to disembark from a transport that you wrecked in the shooting phase.

Why should I assume that the wraithknight only kills 1 unit per turn?

That wraithknight has the capability of killing up to 3 or 4 units per turn, if the dice are in the eldar player's favor.

A WK is only BS4 iirc, so it'll miss 1 every 3 turns it fires 1 of it's D weapons. Therefore in a 6 turn game, it'll only shoot both weapons a total of 8 times.

1/6 of the time for each hit it'll roll a 1 on the D table, and assuming the Rhino's used their Smoke Launchers like they should or are using cover effectively, 2/3 of the time they'll get at least 5+ save against the D weapon. This means you'll need 6.54 shots on average to kill the Rhinos, leaving 1.46 shots left to kill the Marines inside, resulting in 1.21 dead marines on average.

Basically the WK will have to kill all 4 Marine squads in the assault phase, which it won't have time to do even if it spends time charging some Rhinos.

6 Turns and it'll typically kill all but 2-3 Marine squads.

EDIT: This is also assuming the best case scenario (for you) of the Marines remaining embarked in the Rhinos. The WK would do even worse if they weren't.


Of course, you're assuming Eternal War missions. Maelstrom is even more in the Marine's favour as they're all but guaranteed at least 2-3 free points before the WK is able to kill enough of them.

I decided to test it out:

Terrain Composition:

Forest in top left and bottom right of table. Ruins in bottom left and top right of table. Hill with trees in middle of table. Dome in top middle and bottom middle of table. Forest in left middle and right middle of table.

6 objectives: in left middle forest, right middle forest, hill on middle, dome in bottom middle, forest in right bottom, and dome on top middle of table.

Marines deploy on bottom of table. Wraithknight deploys on top middle dome.

Turn 1, marines: 3 marine squads camp on bottom three objectives. Fourth marine squad moves towards middle right forest objective. Rhino moves in for tree hill objective; gets immobilized. Second rhino moves to same objective. Third rhino approaches objective in left middle forest. Pops smoke. Fourth rhino moves to objective in right middle forest. Pops smoke. Immobilized rhino tries and fails to repair itself.

Turn 1, Wraithknight: fires at middle two rhinos. Misses. Successfully charges one of the middle two rhinos. 4 penetrating hits; no explosion. 1 rhino down.

Turn 2, marines: Far left rhino captures and sits on left middle forest objective. Another rhino approaches and captures right middle forest objective. Fails dangerous terrain test: immobilized. Marines not sitting on objectives approach middle right and left middle forest objectives respectively. Both immobilized rhinos try and fail to repair themselves.

Turn 2, wraithknight: Wraithknight successfully fires on middle immobilized rhino; rolls 5 on the d-table. Deals 3 HP. Rhino successfully saves from cover. Wraithknight successfully fires on left middle rhino; rolls d3 hits on d-table, 2 in total. Rhino gains cover from forest and avoids the hit. Wraithknight charges immobilized rhino and successfully wrecks it.

Turn 3, space marines: 2 tac squads en route to top middle objective. Far right rhino attempts and fails repair.

Turn 3, wraithknight: Wraithknight successfully fires at far left rhino. Rolls 4 on the d-table. Deals 1 HP. Wraithknight successfully fires at bottom middle tac squad. Rolls 5 on d-table. Deals 2 wounds. Marines fail save. Marines succeed leadership test; do not fall back. Wraithknight charges far left rhino and wrecks it.

Turn 4, marines: Transitory marines continue en route to top middle objective. Immobilized rhino fails repair.

Turn 4, wraithknight: Wraithknight fires on a transitory marine squad. Fails to hit roll. Wraithknight fires on marines on bottom middle dome. Fails to hit roll. Charges marines. Marine tries and fails to plant a krak grenade. Wraithknight swings and kills 4 marines outright. Wraithknight stomps on remaining marine. Rolls a one on the damage result.

Turn 5, marines: Rhino tries and fails to repair itself. Transitory rhino squad not in combat continues pursuit of top middle objective. Combat continues. Wraithknight finishes off remaining marine.

Turn 5, wraithknight. Wraithknight fires on transitory marines. Fails to hit roll. Fires on immobilized rhino. Succeeds and rolls a 6 on the d-table. Rhino is wrecked. Unsuccessfully tries to charge marines.

End of game roll: 2. Game ends.

Result: 13 marines remaining. Bottom middle and bottom right objectives under marine control. Third marine squad still in transit to top middle objective. Wraithknight controls no objectives.

I'm not sure if I did the saves against the d-strength shots correctly (do you roll 1 save for all of the wounds to be allocated, or 1 save for each?).

Tradito, the way Destroyer weapons work is you allocate a hit, roll on the destroyer table for that hit on a model, that model takes a single save and if that save is failed then that model takes the D result (no wounds carry over)

 CrownAxe wrote:
Tradito, the way Destroyer weapons work is you allocate a hit, roll on the destroyer table for that hit on a model, that model takes a single save and if that save is failed then that model takes the D result (no wounds carry over)

Ok, I got this part right, then: I only took one save for each d hit.

Traditio wrote:

I'm not going to have a verbal dispute about something that should be patently obvious to anyone without a personal interest.

Yes, you are.

Traditio wrote:
Result: 13 marines remaining. Bottom middle and bottom right objectives under marine control. Third marine squad still in transit to top middle objective. Wraithknight controls no objectives.

So, pretty much what I was saying. The marines win 2-0 on objectives, with a solid margin of error (11 additional models, including a full third squad that could have replaced one of the other two if necessary). Are you going to acknowledge the need for a Wraithknight buff now?

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:So now that he did exactly what you asked in a game

He did exactly what I asked in a game, going by the strict letter of what I wrote. Completely ignoring the obvious intent, but he did go by the letter. Congrats to him.

Let me be clear:

I am not going to argue about words.

I also wish to note that Sgt. Smudge, and the other interlocutors in this thread, have completely ignored my subsequent posting:

"I am going to ask you a simple question:

Suppose player A runs:

A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads Or grav centurions, if they want a better chance at winning.
2 assault marines without jump packs. Not up to me to determine how this guy plays, but I don't think they make a wise move.
3 scout squads Why scouts?
10 rhinos Why not Razorbacks or Drop Pods? I should be able to choose what I want - if you're hypothetically giving this list to me.

Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry. Why not grav? They're missing out on a very effective tool - it would be akin to asking a Guard player not to run any Barrage weapons, Leman Russes or Infantry blobs... oh wait a minute...

How would he do against the point equivalence of tau? Depends what they brought. All Vespids? All Crisis? You cannot generalise an army.

Eldar? Due to the high standard of nearly all Eldar units, this is a little more like what your biased question is leading towards. However, I only have to assume the Eldar player, in my hypothetical situation, is fielding Guardian spam. Hence my point, You cannot generalise.

Imperial Guard? Is this your idea of what Imperial Guard should be (aka - nothing you don't like) or what they are? Again - I cannot say. I need lists.

Dark Eldar? List needed."

Basically, you have shown your prejudice and blatant disregard for diversity in this. You've not considered the possible make-up of the lists, the victory conditions, and various other factors.

The fact that Sgt. Smudge has met this posting of mine with silence speaks volumes.

Yes. It speaks volumes about the fact I am human and actually require sleep. Next time, consider that not everyone is the same as you?

The point in question - I have made my remarks in red.

pm713 wrote:By your own logic it is.

The Wraithknight is OP because it is undercosted meaning you effectively have something in terms of power you have not paid for. I believe you said it was undercosted by about 100 points?
Free transports give at least 350 points of power for free. You can't argue that one is OP and the other is not without shifting goalposts around.

I deny the bolded. Good for you. Doesn't mean you're right. The Wraithknight is (effectively) 100 points free-er. The Gladius is 350/550 points free-er. There is some definite double standards going on.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. There is no such thing as "free" rhinos in the gladius strike force battle company. The "free" rhinos are factored into the total points cost of the units which form the battle company.
INCORRECT.

You buy the the units alone. Only by buying those units do I get the Rhinos. If your case were true, if I bought a Tactical Squad in any detachment, Gladius or no, I would get a free Dedicated Transport. This is not the case. When I pay those point for a Tactical Squad, I only get the five men that make up that starting Tactical Squad.

Say, I take a CAD. I then take a Captain, Chaplain, 6x Tactical Squads, 2x Assault Squads/Bikers, 2x Devastator Squads/Devastator Centurions, and say - three Sternguard Squads. I have taken exactly what the Gladius requires to make me eligible for those free transports, but where are they? My points are IDENTICAL to that of a Gladius, yet they get an extra 350/550 points points to go on transports.

Now tell me that the DT is factored into the Marine cost.

The purpose of the points system is to effect equality. True. However, the system is not correct. If the issue with Astartes durability lies in the Tactical Squad, the Tactical Squad needs a rebalancing - either a points nerf or power buff. However, giving free transports, unless it is innate, does not balance it.

Going to my previous example - two IDENTICAL armies, but one uses a CAD, instead of the Gladius. They are equal points, but one now gets an extra 10 tanks (assuming that both the Assault Squad and Devastators are eligable) - you have not fixed the durability of one of those Marine armies. Therefore, the Marines themselves are still not fixed.

.

 Jewelfox wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Depends what they brought. All Vespids? All Crisis? You cannot generalise an army.

You totally can. "The public views Tau as un-fun and non-interactive, and thinks they are only played by stinky anime fans." See?

The OP will use more words to say this. I am just saving them time.

Unfortunately so.
I would be sorely tempted to start a Tau army early and prove him wrong, but I doubt I really count in his eyes.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Basically, you have shown your prejudice and blatant disregard for diversity in this.

That's our Traditio.

Not surprising at this point.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You buy the the units alone. Only by buying those units do I get the Rhinos.

No, see, you don't understand. You're talking about the rules as written. OP is discussing the rules as they should be.

You're not going to get anywhere if you assume that OP is playing the same game as you are, or even has any desire to. That's basically what this poll amounts to: "Do you play 40k correctly? Y/N"

Hence my earlier point - is the hobby really for you, Traditio? I have seen more people disagree with Traditio than agree - I have no idea how he can still claim to be on the public's side.

We are putting forward valid points, ones that promote balance and equal opportunity, and you continue to move the goalposts to suit your argument, or simply disregard points with unquantifiable statistics.

Don't make it personal, folks.

The Wraithknight is a problem, and it's about 100-150 pts undercosted. It can, however, only be assaulting one place at a time and isn't obj sec.

When playing Eldar, I find the scatterbikes harder to play around than the Wraithknight. An equivalent point value of scatterbikes will kill Rhinos even faster than a WK.

Gladius is very powerful, probably too powerful. The big difference is that it isn't nearly as killy as the Eldar, even with a grav cannon in every squad (which adds up fast).

I've gotten very close to beating the Gladius with BA, but against Eldar there is zero hope with the BA codex.

Martel732 wrote:
The Wraithknight is a problem, and it's about 100-150 pts undercosted. It can, however, only be assaulting one place at a time and isn't obj sec.

When playing Eldar, I find the scatterbikes harder to play around than the Wraithknight. An equivalent point value of scatterbikes will kill Rhinos even faster than a WK.

Gladius is very powerful, probably too powerful. The big difference is that it isn't nearly as killy as the Eldar, even with a grav cannon in every squad (which adds up fast).

This. Gladius is great in Maelstrom and ITC missions, but in straight up kill points, all those free Rhinos and Razorbacks are just extra VP's.

Kill point are far rarer than in 5th, so I'm not sure how important that is anymore.

I have Tyranids and CSM and I have no FW stuff, so about as non-cheesy as you can get.........

 Battlesong wrote:
I have Tyranids and CSM and I have no FW stuff, so about as non-cheesy as you can get.........

Tyranids have the MC cheese going for them: free AP2, no damage chart, fights at full strength till dead, can't be immobilized in rough terrain, but that's about it. They are better than if they have to use vehicles for synapse roles, but their MCs are unfortunately for them total gak compared to the godmode Riptide and Dreadknight.

Traditio wrote:

How many rhinos and 5 man tac squads can a wraithknight kill over the course of a game?

How many wraithknights can 4 - 5 man tac squads and their rhinos kill in the course of a game?

Ugh. As soon as someone starts on the "everything should be equally good at killing everything" you know they're either trolling or missing the point.

Equal points of grots are rubbish against landraider redeemers. Landraiders must be OP!

Another issue, though, is that there is exactly ONE weapon system good at killing WKs in the whole marine codex. WKs should be way more vulnerable to lascannons and multimeltas than they are.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Traditio wrote:

How many rhinos and 5 man tac squads can a wraithknight kill over the course of a game?

How many wraithknights can 4 - 5 man tac squads and their rhinos kill in the course of a game?

Ugh. As soon as someone starts on the "everything should be equally good at killing everything" you know they're either trolling or missing the point.

Equal points of grots are rubbish against landraider redeemers. Landraiders must be OP!

Because different strategies with different inherent weaknesses and strengths totally aren't a thing. If one thing is 100 points and another thing is 100 points they should be the same thing, dincha know?

Sgt. Smudge:

I only wish to note that you've refused to answer the question as I've presented it. I have no further comments on the subject.

Traditio wrote:
Sgt. Smudge:

I only wish to note that you've refused to answer the question as I've presented it. I have no further comments on the subject.

Please restate the question exactly as originally presented.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Sgt. Smudge:

I only wish to note that you've refused to answer the question as I've presented it. I have no further comments on the subject.

Please restate the question exactly as originally presented.

"I am going to ask you a simple question:

Suppose player A runs:

A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads
2 assault marines without jump packs.
3 scout squads
10 rhinos

Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry.

How would he do against the point equivalence of tau?

Eldar?

Imperial Guard?

Dark Eldar?"

Assume:

1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it.
2. The most common "competitive" to "semi-competitive" lists for the armies I've proposed for comparison.

" and is not using grav weaponry."

Why would you not use grav? You just turned them into BA with free Rhinos. Of course they suck.

Martel732 wrote:
" and is not using grav weaponry."

Why would you not use grav?

"Assume:

1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it."

How about we assume the SM player isn't a fool? You need to be intellectually honest in your suppositions.

I've borrowed a friend's Gladius before. Even with assault cannon razorbacks, it was a shooting gallery for the Tau. I won, however, because there was a real limit on how much he could kill and I scored so many objectives. Ion Accelerators are REALLY inefficient vs cheap transports.

Martel732 wrote:
How about we assume the SM player isn't a fool? You need to be intellectually honest in your suppositions.

Humor me.

It doesn't matter. I just explained up above how the Gladius works. You still get shot to pieces, it just doesn't matter anymore.

BA can't field enough victims for the Tau. SM Gladius can. End of Story.

Traditio wrote:
1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it."

IOW: "assume that I'm not bringing a very good C:SM army and will not improve it, but my opponents are all bringing their standard competitive lists". What exactly do you think you are proving here?

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
1. Absolutely no changes to the army as I've presented it."

IOW: "assume that I'm not bringing a very good C:SM army and will not improve it, but my opponents are all bringing their standard competitive lists". What exactly do you think you are proving here?

As I said, he turned them into BA and then wonders why they are bad.