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I saw it, saw it was Prodos and walked away.

If I were an AvP backer, I'd stay silent, hoping that Prodos diverts LOAD funds to fulfill their AvP obligations just as they diverted AvP funds to create Unicast and Archon and LOAD...

Paragraphs were pasted in exactly as they read in Rum and Bones. Not even slightly changed in some cases.

It is about impossible for that to be an accident, and no court would consider it so. Hell, Prodos themselves admitted it was plagiarism, defending against calling it that at this point seems silly.

Edit: Found the source I was looking for. Removed my post since it is incorrect.

I don't know if it's true, just passing on what they posted - that they outsourced the rules. It would seem really silly for a company to knowingly post rules that were an exact copy of another's. It seems much more likely that they didn't know - in my opinion, at least.

I actually had this happen with our campaign - our artist copied Warsenal's Infinity tokens almost exactly. When we found out, we immediately changed the offending tokens... it'd be crazy to post something you know is an exact copy when the whole board / wargaming world is going to be looking at it and it will immediately come to light.

Either way, they're changing it and since the MOBA / 3-lane game isn't even original to Rum & Bones (but is obviously taken from the PC games) I can't imagine there being issues going forward.

 RiTides wrote:
I don't know if it's true, just passing on what they posted - that they outsourced the rules. It would seem really silly for a company to knowingly post rules that were an exact copy of another's. It seems much more likely that they didn't know - in my opinion, at least.

It would also be silly for the company to repeatedly post that they're shipping items by a certain date or have ALREADY shipped them when they have no ability and/or intention to actually do so.. but Prodos does just that. Or take down a kickstarter page under completely BS circumstances and then vacilate back and forth for months (interspersed with bouts of complete silence) about the real reason just because they've felt it was their only option. They've posted things in the past simply because they think they can get away with it and that no one will notice. I have zero idea whether they knew about the plagarism or suspected it or didn't care... but it's certainly not out of character for them to knowingly post something like that with their fingers crossed. If they got it but noticed the plagarism but were in a time crunch for the impending *secret* totally not a Prodos kickstarter and had to publish something to get the quick cash, I could exactly see them saying "feth it!" and putting it up if their backs were up against the wall.

 RiTides wrote:

I don't have a stake in this other than backing, but I just think people are going after them due to the Prodos connection more than anything else. Mierce Miniatures also faced this for some time with the Maelstrom Games fallout... but eventually, people (myself included) recognized that they're making awesome minis and despite the past mis-step, gladly support them.

I know Prodos is still in the thick of their issues moreso than Mierce... but to me the similarities are pretty strong, and again I don't see very much risk in this campaign at all compared to many other board game / miniatures projects that I've backed.

I'd think Prodos would have to make good on quite a bit more than they currently have with AvP to be considered a solid source again.

I'd be more than a little concerned about funds from (x) covering (y) - and I don't want to see either side (LOAD supporters and AvP backers) getting the short end.

And in some cases, getting it again.

 RiTides wrote:
Overall, I can understand why people were hesitant, but I just find it ironic that people were happily pledging $10K per day (with $110K and $85K the first two days) when they thought the company was a complete unknown / new to the miniature game industry / etc, but get scared off when they know who it is. I'd much prefer a company connected to Prodos handle this campaign (especially having produced miniatures for so many other Kickstarters), than one that had never done anything like this at all before!

At least BGG wasn't "happily pledging". The NDA was a big issue -- and some BGG'ers didn't even know who Prodos was. Also, plagiarizing rules from another game is a no-go for most BGG'ers, so that would explain the lack of additional pledges to counter those dropping them. I also read the update that Prodos used funds from AvP to pay for WR costs.

Where did you hear good reception to the game? All I can find is Mike's comment.

Mike about 1 hour ago
@Amarice, I'm sorry my review didn't fit your hope for the game. I have played it, many times. The print and play files were available to everyone. You could have played it too. However, they were taking down because the rules were plagiarized, so I guess you'll have to wait to give the game a try yourself. It was a very simple and boring game. If you're looking for a light dice chucker to play with friends, this game could be for you. The hero variety in the game is mostly just cosmetic, since many of them play the same and actually feature the very same (mechanic wise) abilities!

I also can't find info who the designer is. If it's Jarek again, I guess look up the reviews to his previous Warzone Resurrection and AvP games to get an idea of how LOAD will play. I didn't hear particularly enthusiastic comments about AvP on the dakka AvP thread.

Ced, I didn't see the launch but from what I can tell BGG posters were really into the game at the start (hence it shooting up as quickly as it did!). As to the gameplay, that was from reading folks posting in the Kickstarter comments who played the print-and-play rules.

I tracked AvP closely (I originally backed it heavily but sold my pledge right after the campaign ended, realizing I'd just overdone it!) so I know the issues they've had... but I just don't share the view of this being so risky that others seem to have. If anything, I think they've got more motivation to follow through on it really well as a result of prior mistakes...

I think some of the speculation, like AvP funding WR, is unfair... from what I can tell, WR fulfilled for the most part quite well. AvP is continuing to fulfill, and they've been very upfront about the issues with not having the funds to ship everything (but shipping for anyone who places an order on the webstore). The reason people know about this is because they've come out and said exactly that.

I'm not saying they don't have issues - they obviously have them. But this project, as another commentor said, looks better planned than 90% of the projects I've backed (and I've backed 275 so far). I just don't see the issues as being a huge problem, particularly since they came out now... they are going to show the new rules tomorrow and the models (what I'm the most interested in) just look fantastic.

I understand this isn't a really popular view but having backed so many projects and been burned on extremely few... I just don't see this as being very high risk. If I'm wrong, I'll have lost out - but the minis are awesome (and affordable), the manufacturer is experienced, and they've laid out a clear and achievable project that is Very far along in development. It checks all my boxes... although, of course I understand if others don't feel the same way!

I'd like to "this" everything RiTides just said

I've decided to back too now.. but honestly have no plans to play the game, I just want a bunch of awesome fantasy minis. Dunno why but my favorite is the basic Eli Ironsmith. He's just standing there, but just looks like a great sculpt. Must be the sideburns.

If I counted right it's 72 minis for $99? not bad a'tall.

 RiTides wrote:
but I just don't share the view of this being so risky that others seem to have. If anything, I think they've got more motivation to follow through on it really well as a result of prior mistakes...

I think some of the speculation, like AvP funding WR, is unfair... from what I can tell, WR fulfilled for the most part quite well. AvP is continuing to fulfill, and they've been very upfront about the issues with not having the funds to ship everything (but shipping for anyone who places an order on the webstore). The reason people know about this is because they've come out and said exactly that.

It's not just an issue of risk though but rather also solidarity with your fellow gamers IMO. I almost pledged and even considered buying your pledge after I backed out last minute on the kickstarter. You don't reward a company that keeps making promises they can't keep, lies about what they've done (shipping and the KS takedown to name two), and treats their most dedicated customers like gak both in action and in tone. I just can't reward that type of business with more business unless they make up for their past mistakes while also demonstrating a fundamental change in how they do business. Prodos has done neither IMO and this super secret we NDA'd ourselves and used two different layers of shell companies to hide our participation project is an example of that. As for them coming clean, the revelations usually come in drips and drabs only when the complaints get load enough on all fronts to drown out other talk. This latest renewal of the license info as probably the most timely we've ever seen from Prodos for the duration of the avp ks and even that is likely overflowing with spin but at least it is relatively timely (but lets not kid ourselves.. it's because theyve missed another shipping deadline yet again and because it is apparently affecting the NEXT project.. not because of some turning a new open and honest leaf). With that, I'll probably just leave the subject alone barring some new sweeping revelation.

It looks like people learning about Prodos is proving Prodos right about trying to run this through a shell.

Over the past 3 days, they have net lost backers every single day. And they have net lost money over that same period, basically being where they were 4 days ago.

I wonder if this is going to cause further erosion of the backers, to the point that Prodos will have to cancel the KS.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/#chart-daily

Given how badly the AVP KS has gone, I seriously question why anyone would preorder anything from Prodos ever again.

... and that is why Prodos tried to deceive backers via the use of a shell company.

Hi there, as Archon has no representative here I'll take the pleasure to post an updated:

Update from Manufacturing and shipping explained.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1587696

Thanks

Nice!

Hope Prodos / Archon can restore its KS reputation through LOAD. At least I'll be available at retail and Prodos / Archon's partners should be happy. Just make sure the AvP backers get their stuff!

I feel it's safe to say that prodos will eventually ship the AVP stuff all out, the same way it took forever with the warzone stuff. I will say that if you back this, keep in mind that you may have a long wait ahead of you, before seeing your stuff. In 6 months AvP will be 3 years since it funded, all the way back in November 2013.

Your not buying this for now, your buying this for 3 years from now. Buyer beware on this.

 RiTides wrote:


I think some of the speculation, like AvP funding WR, is unfair... from what I can tell, WR fulfilled for the most part quite well. !

It is not unfair to say it, the info came from Jarek.


Automatically Appended Next Post:




Probably different enough to avoid trouble, but man, Prodos and crew just can't help ripping others off.

I think the rules plagiarism was a driving piece of what has kept the BGGers away; they reacted pretty strongly to that.

*As an FYI, I did actually have this one Day 1 backed until the rules ... "issue"?.... came to light.

Yeah, and that makes complete sense (it's a huge oversight). They posted the updated rules today, has anyone checked them out?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1587882

 RiTides wrote:
Yeah, and that makes complete sense (it's a huge oversight). They posted the updated rules today, has anyone checked them out?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1587882

So wait. The rules were written by Ninja Division? Didn't they do the rules for Rum and Bones? (I know they have a close working relation to CmoN, but can't remember if they were involved with Rum and Bones.)

 Lockark wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Yeah, and that makes complete sense (it's a huge oversight). They posted the updated rules today, has anyone checked them out?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1587882

So wait. The rules were written by Ninja Division? Didn't they do the rules for Rum and Bones? (I know they have a close working relation to CmoN, but can't remember if they were involved with Rum and Bones.)

It sounds like Ninja Division is just editing the rules to me.

Ninja Division will be proofing and editing, not creating. They may or may not do any testing... If they do, I would expect very basic stuff for comprehension checks, not actual rules development.

Looking at KickTraq, it's a 4th consecutive day of backers leaving, with a net drop from yesterday.

I'm guessing as a result of backers leaving, the system glitched and opened up some of the early bird slots. I was going to back anyway, so I grabbed one.
Now I just wonder if they'll let me get away with it...

You'll be fine, that's how KS works with regards to early bird slots, if somebody leaves one somebody else can pick them up

Yeah I grabbed one too Arson Fire, very happy with it! For myself, I also prefer games delivering on time rather than insane stretch goals, so even if it ended with what it has now (after final push) or even less, I think it'd be great. Much more likely to deliver on time that way, show they can make a fantastic original miniatures game, then sell it at retail.

The early bird slots for this game were tied to the 1st 24 hours. Someone (KS/Prodos(Archon) have been removing them as they've been dropped. It may be an automated process. If you've grabbed one I suspect they can see when you grabbed it, and in theory if it is after the first 24 hours they won't have to honor it.

We'll see. It is only an extra figure if I remember correctly.

It's not automated, they just have been reducing them since they were a time limited thing. If you snag one it's all yours, though

I think EB's don't matter now? I just read that they're going to give the stretch goal freebies to every backer of the game now

From now on, every miniature we unlock as SG until the end of campaign will be free for all bakers, Epic, KS exclusive, and not available in retail.

The EB is just one extra free mini (Epic Wart) but it's one I'm after! I think that text refers to any additional unlocks from here on. Nice that they could unlock a few things in that update, too!

Any additional insight in the comments section - or elsewhere - as to what's causing the backslide?

Or is it just what JHDD noted above?