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 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .

Thanks for your comment, however it's worth pointing-out that "getting a legal advice about doxing" is not taking any legal actions ( or "sue" as you enclosed). Thanks.

As for Archon financials, I can assure you that Archon as established company is making enough profit to protect it's rights (if any) in legal actions, if needed.

Let's be very clear that you were not "doxxed", and that using such defamatory, incendiary language to imply illegal action is libelous in and of itself. Unless you have actual proof of being "doxxed" via illegal means, you should retract that statement and language forthwith.

The publishing and release public information about Prodos and/or Archon is clearly in the best public interest, and it is clearly newsworthy, given that Prodos / Archon is asking the public for money, and had deliberately acted to conceal this information. It is entirely reasonable to inquire as to the directors and officers of each entity, along with their legal and financial arrangements. The fact that it's something that you had attempted to hide from the public, that's too bad. The public has a right to know these things - that's why you had to file to set up Prodos / Archon in the first place.

If Prodos / Archon is making enough profits, why isn't it delivering AvP, as promised in Prodos' previous Kickstarter? Why all the lies and deceit?

 warboss wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .

Thanks for your comment, however it's worth pointing-out that "getting a legal advice about doxing" is not taking any legal actions ( or "sue" as you enclosed). Thanks.

As for Archon financials, I can assure you that Archon as established company is making enough profit to protect it's rights (if any) in legal actions, if needed.

But not enough to have shipped out all the outstanding AVP kickstarter orders in a timely fashion along with the retail shipments last year? I suspect that you've lost more money and hair by dragging the avp kickstarter reward fulfillment out so long than if you had just gotten a small buisness loan with the corresponding interest and shipped them out when you first promised alongside the retail copies. It might have seemed like the better decision for the short term but I suspect the long term effects on your company's future profits and reputation have far outweighed those initial cash flow benefits.

We are drifting away from the main topic, however let me maybe explain a bit.

Hi there, thanks for your question, however please note that Archon is a separate financially business entity to Prodos. Please google for more understanding definition of LTD company. (both Archon and Prodos are LTD).

Financially both businesses are not linked at all and legally cannot be.

Prodos is fulfilling KS from it's sales profit on it's products.

Prodos, as per it's financial statement is also doing fine, thus is able to fund shipping, gradually.

If you are AVP KS backer, and you have not received anything/awaiting for next wave, I would suggest to email Prodos or join "AvP:THB Backers only" Facebook forum, Prodos team is very active there ,sorting out all customer queries.

Also, please check your data in pledge manager as there is still 241 backers that have missing names and surnames for shipping -if this is the case, I would suggest to update it and bet in touch with Prodos.

If you are not AvP backer, please follow up official updates for more information, any suggestions regarding this topic please send to Prodos email.

Thanks, I hope we can come back to the topic of LOAD.

Here is the latest update : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1591030

and 2 Epic miniatures revealed :

The main topic is whether Prodos / Archos officers, directors and staff can be trusted to fulfill LOAD, given their demonstrated failure to do so with AvP.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The main topic is whether Prodos / Archos officers, directors and staff can be trusted to fulfill LOAD, given their demonstrated failure to do so with AvP.

Hi there, you have not taken in consideration, that Archon alone managed to fulfill/help out to deliver 12 KS, with almost 300k miniatures manufactured for market last year.

AvP KS is much more complicated that it seems to be. It's a licence product, that is fully dependent as well on 3rd party.

The fact number two : prototype of AvP core game was delivered for approval in September 2014 and the game without any changes was approved in ... July of 2015, this fact should, at least give you an idea of the process Prodos needed to go through (11 months). During that time backers have been informed very well about delay, one sided if I may add.

Anyhow, as stated above if you are a KS backer please send me PM with you emial address used for KS pledge manager, and I will make sure that Prodos team will check it up for you.

Here are some examples of companies that have used Archon's services: Ninja Division, Mantic Games, Warlords Gates of Antares, TitanForge, MicroArt Studio, White Dragon Miniatures, Riverhorse, Steamforged Games, Freebooter Minatures, Infamy Miniatures, Age of Tyrants, Rycerze pustkowi, Shadowrun, Demigods Evolution, Norsgard, Miniature 13, Perditions Mouth, Wargamer, Hysterical Games, Awaken Realms, Troll Trader, Armoured Syndicate, Fregged Empire, Collision, hint The Game, Modiphious, Dungeon Saga, Apollo, Broken Contract.

Archon is capable to deliver not only it's own projects but several others as well, that's not arguable fact bases on projects creators testimonies.

The topic of this thread is the Load Board game, and everything related to that... what's being discussed above is fine of course, but just pointing out that people can talk about whatever aspect of the game and company they like (positive or negative!). Personally speaking, I'd rather talk about the game but again, the above is fair game, particularly since WZR is engaging on it.

Regarding the above 3d prints, any chance you guys could share what machine they were printed on? Really incredible detail and I love the concepts... the top model reminds me of Ysala and Darkness in a different form, and I always craved that model (cursed limited runs...).

So I've been trying to find some information regarding Archon, Archon Ltd, Archon games Ltd (you get the idea) but... aside from whats been said here nothing.

So... whats the actual name, and wheres the company held? Is it a limited company in its own right, or is it an arm of Prodos Ltd? I can't image its a limited UK company because theres no contact details or addresses on the website.

And out of curiosity, whats Wastefall Games? This seems to be another company using the UK postbox address Prodos uses but again, no actual details.

Also, regarding the above list of companies, very few were willing to name you as the manufacturer. I asked several of those at Salute directly - it was telling that when they reference yourselves they stated that it was always in the context of you being the cheapest, but that the quality control was fairly poor. Those that were asked also stated that they would go elsewhere if given an option, given the AVP situation. So I can see now where your asking clients not to divulge who there manufacturing partners are.

 Gomezaddams wrote:
So I've been trying to find some information regarding Archon, Archon Ltd, Archon games Ltd (you get the idea) but... aside from whats been said here nothing.

So... whats the actual name, and wheres the company held? Is it a limited company in its own right, or is it an arm of Prodos Ltd? I can't image its a limited UK company because theres no contact details or addresses on the website.

And out of curiosity, whats Wastefall Games? This seems to be another company using the UK postbox address Prodos uses but again, no actual details.

Hi there here is full information about our company : Archon sp. z o o, street: Warsztatowa 8, post code: 64-920, City: Pila, VAT: 764-266-64-25. and full registration, from Polish company check : http://www.krs-online.com.pl/archon-sp-z-o-o-krs-1325062.html

 Gomezaddams wrote:
So I've been trying to find some information regarding Archon, Archon Ltd, Archon games Ltd (you get the idea) but... aside from whats been said here nothing.

So... whats the actual name, and wheres the company held? Is it a limited company in its own right, or is it an arm of Prodos Ltd? I can't image its a limited UK company because theres no contact details or addresses on the website.

And out of curiosity, whats Wastefall Games? This seems to be another company using the UK postbox address Prodos uses but again, no actual details.

For that, you should go to boardgamegeek.com... They will give you the accurate, unbiased information - unlike some other parties which might only want your money...

 RiTides wrote:
The topic of this thread is the Load Board game, and everything related to that... what's being discussed above is fine of course, but just pointing out that people can talk about whatever aspect of the game and company they like (positive or negative!). Personally speaking, I'd rather talk about the game but again, the above is fair game, particularly since WZR is engaging on it.

Regarding the above 3d prints, any chance you guys could share what machine they were printed on? Really incredible detail and I love the concepts... the top model reminds me of Ysala and Darkness in a different form, and I always craved that model (cursed limited runs...).

Hi there, we are using modified prefactory 4 (ERM) , manufacturer is Envisiontec, resin used is also not stock a premix that works in our environment (low air humidity)... it took us almost 8 months to understand that machine and to get un-burned or damaged 3d prints, which is the biggest issues with Prefactory machines.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Gomezaddams wrote:
So I've been trying to find some information regarding Archon, Archon Ltd, Archon games Ltd (you get the idea) but... aside from whats been said here nothing.

So... whats the actual name, and wheres the company held? Is it a limited company in its own right, or is it an arm of Prodos Ltd? I can't image its a limited UK company because theres no contact details or addresses on the website.

And out of curiosity, whats Wastefall Games? This seems to be another company using the UK postbox address Prodos uses but again, no actual details.

For that, you should go to boardgamegeek.com... They will give you the accurate, unbiased information - unlike some other parties which might only want your money...

..... all information is provided above your post, also, a reiminder : I am missing PM with your pledge manager KS emial address, thanks

Thanks for the info on the 3d printer, much appreciated!

Could you confirm if these pictures are 3D prints as RiTides refers to them or if they are renders/ CGI? Thanks:

I see in the update text that you could be right, they say they've produced 3D prints of them, but not that these pictures are the prints. So, that may have just been my misunderstanding if these aren't prints (so hard to tell these days!).

Obviously, their printing process has worked well for the production minis they have shown, so if these aren't prints it would be cool to see the prints (but I still can't tell from looking at this picture one way or the other)

 RiTides wrote:
(but I still can't tell from looking at this picture one way or the other)

Exactly this - if they are renders, they are excellent at looking life like - especially the top one, the 2 things that make me think render are the reflections, and the rocks/ boulders on the bottom one, but I wouldn't swear to them being renders.

They look like 3D renders to me.. however, the Envisiontec printer they are using is pretty much the best you can get for minis as far as I know, so I'd expect the prints to look just like that anyway.

I think I like the standard Eli Ironsmith better for some reason, but the epic vashara looks great

 Necros wrote:
They look like 3D renders to me.. however, the Envisiontec printer they are using is pretty much the best you can get for minis as far as I know, so I'd expect the prints to look just like that anyway.

I think I like the standard Eli Ironsmith better for some reason, but the epic vashara looks great

they are 3d pirnts, thanks

Wicked, thank you . Those look fantastic!

And now you're just making it confusing with all the other projects out there using renders when your lightbox pics look so much like them

Well then wow they look really great

Wow. If I was going to choose a term to describe threatening legal action over the message board writings of your primary potential audience, I would go with "public relations minefield".

That's pretty stunning 3D printing *hides screen from R&D Department*

Prodos should look to Puppets War (another polish miniature company) to see how to change a toxic image around. They were in the same spot about 2 years ago, but now are well liked amongst gamers. Their interaction with the community is soooo much better and the public relations nightmare they had is a thing of the past. Also bring a polish company maybe they can enlighten Prodos as to where they are making the communications mistakes that could very well just be a cultural difference.

It's a cultural thing to lie and cheat and deceive? Sorry, no, not buying it.

And neither are a lot of former backers:



Like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's a cultural thing to lie and cheat and deceive? Sorry, no, not buying it.

And neither are a lot of former backers:

Spoiler:

Like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

That seems a tad hyperbolic. Definitely a worrisome trend but they've only lost ~150 backers and still have ~1700 backers so the KS is still likely to be "successful."

No doubt the KS will be successful, but the damage is done and just think how great the success would have been if they hadn't killed their image.

@john, I wasn't saying the culture was full of liars and such, but the communications was terrible which puppets war also had poor communications to begin with but now they have solved their customer service problems and are very community oriented. It might be a cultural thing to not public ally admit any issues and try to dig themselves out of a whole. I know my parents generation (70 year olds) don't talk about certain issues and people I work with from other countries each have their own comfort levels of what they will discuss. That's why I suggested puppets wars specifically because they had similar issues originally but they have turned it around and both are polish companies, so might have a similar perspective.

Yup, and their funding total has pretty much stayed the same as it was on the 24th when the news broke. Either the remaining majority of backers are upping their pledge or the lost pledgers are mostly folks at $1 scared off by the news or those who just joined to post a few comments. It's more like a ship dead in the water rather than actually sinking. While the momentum has definitely been lost, I don't think there is any risk of the project backsliding enough to risk defunding (assuming the original funding goal was remotely close to the real goal needed).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Spoiler:

It's a cultural thing to lie and cheat and deceive? Sorry, no, not buying it.

And neither are a lot of former backers:

Like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

While I think I know what you're aiming for there, I don't think that's really the phrase you're meaning to use here!

@Theop - I was confused by what you were getting at. Sorry, for my confusion.
____

 warboss wrote:
Yup, and their funding total has pretty much stayed the same as it was on the 24th when the news broke. Either the remaining majority of backers are upping their pledge or the lost pledgers are mostly folks at $1 scared off by the news or those who just joined to post a few comments. It's more like a ship dead in the water rather than actually sinking. While the momentum has definitely been lost, I don't think there is any risk of the project backsliding enough to risk defunding (assuming the original funding goal was remotely close to the real goal needed).

BGG is seeing the totals fall as backers leave, then suddenly boost. A drop in the dollar total is highly-visible, and will raise a lot more concerns than a drop in the backer count. BGG speculates that the funding total is being artificially propped up by Prodos "phantom" painted pledges, that Prodos is willing to pay the x% fee to KS, etc. when the project funds. A few $k in extra fees to prevent a visible drop keeps more of the backers from panicking and accelerating the collapse even further.

If not for Prodos' phantom pledgers, the total would be $205k instead of $220k, and Prodos would be playing defense to keep it from falling under $200k.

The confusing claims of Polish Consumer Protection Law are a similar attempt to prevent collapse. I like that Prodos is forgetting that their KS is to their American shell company, and already covered by American Consumer Protection Law. But I guess they don't want to go down that road.

That's a lot of speculation... did they take into account the fact that painted pledge levels were added? That corresponded with when the dollar values on days started being positive again despite backer losses, which makes sense since a painted pledge is Much more expensive.

BGG notes that it's an interesting coincidence that the painted pledges exactly match the losses from backers leaving.

And this is why:

If the total falls below $215k, then Prodos has to unwind that SG, and backers aren't going to like that one bit.

OTOH, if they bump it over $225k, then the legit backers are going to expect another SG to be delivered.

So the total is going to stay in the $215-225k range pretty much indefinitely.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If the total falls below $215k, then Prodos has to unwind that SG, and backers aren't going to like that one bit.

I was pretty sure there was a post that said if a SG was unlocked, it was going to stay unlocked even if the total dipped.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Theop - I was confused by what you were getting at. Sorry, for my confusion.
____

 warboss wrote:
Yup, and their funding total has pretty much stayed the same as it was on the 24th when the news broke. Either the remaining majority of backers are upping their pledge or the lost pledgers are mostly folks at $1 scared off by the news or those who just joined to post a few comments. It's more like a ship dead in the water rather than actually sinking. While the momentum has definitely been lost, I don't think there is any risk of the project backsliding enough to risk defunding (assuming the original funding goal was remotely close to the real goal needed).

BGG is seeing the totals fall as backers leave, then suddenly boost. A drop in the dollar total is highly-visible, and will raise a lot more concerns than a drop in the backer count. BGG speculates that the funding total is being artificially propped up by Prodos "phantom" painted pledges, that Prodos is willing to pay the x% fee to KS, etc. when the project funds. A few $k in extra fees to prevent a visible drop keeps more of the backers from panicking and accelerating the collapse even further.

If not for Prodos' phantom pledgers, the total would be $205k instead of $220k, and Prodos would be playing defense to keep it from falling under $200k.

The confusing claims of Polish Consumer Protection Law are a similar attempt to prevent collapse. I like that Prodos is forgetting that their KS is to their American shell company, and already covered by American Consumer Protection Law. But I guess they don't want to go down that road.

Hi there, thanks for your comments,

1) Origin of Customer Protection Act is Poland as the Invoice (contract) will be issued from Archon to each backer post pledge manager. Kickstarter is not providing any invoice to backers because they would be then accounted for not-delivering.

Invoice is a proof of payment. Invoice is an itemized bill for goods sold or services provided, containing individual prices, the total charge, and the terms.

2) The increase in value is accounted by 3 factors : 1. painted pledges, 2. backers moving from 99 USD pledge to Epic once we have revealed epic models (140+ USD difference). 3) Dropping 1 USD pledgers (47).






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dark Severance wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If the total falls below $215k, then Prodos has to unwind that SG, and backers aren't going to like that one bit.

I was pretty sure there was a post that said if a SG was unlocked, it was going to stay unlocked even if the total dipped.

That's correct.

Thanks