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Kills 6 units before the game ends, then. We can just round it up to 250 if that's better.

Traditio wrote:
This doesn't actually prove anything about fair points costs.

Of course it doesn't, because it came to a conclusion that disagrees with your beliefs about balance.

 BossJakadakk wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
'Real' reason the WK should be cheaper: as we determined in the other thread a (current) equal number of points of Tactical Marines and Rhinos beat a WK 8 on 1 in an objectives match.

So 4 units of Tac Marines with their free rhinos is 280 points. IIRC, the WK kills 6 units before it dies. I propose dropping the WK to an equivalent point value of 210, 3/4 of the cost of those SM units. Maybe add 5 points because it kills 210 points in the given scenario.

How are you getting 6 units? It's killing at most 14 models (with no upgrades). And that is over the course of 7 turns. Unless it gets into melee, but I don't use one often (read once since I bought it back in 6th edition) so I wouldn't know how well it stands up to that.

Happyjew wrote:How are you getting 6 units? It's killing at most 14 models (with no upgrades). And that is over the course of 7 turns. Unless it gets into melee, but I don't use one often (read once since I bought it back in 6th edition) so I wouldn't know how well it stands up to that.

In the test I conducted, the "real" damage output of the WK came from charging. 5 S10, AP 2 attacks on the charge is pretty decent damage. Add stomp, hammer of wrath and complete immunity to small arms? Complete slaughter.

 Happyjew wrote:

 BossJakadakk wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
'Real' reason the WK should be cheaper: as we determined in the other thread a (current) equal number of points of Tactical Marines and Rhinos beat a WK 8 on 1 in an objectives match.

So 4 units of Tac Marines with their free rhinos is 280 points. IIRC, the WK kills 6 units before it dies. I propose dropping the WK to an equivalent point value of 210, 3/4 of the cost of those SM units. Maybe add 5 points because it kills 210 points in the given scenario.

How are you getting 6 units? It's killing at most 14 models (with no upgrades). And that is over the course of 7 turns. Unless it gets into melee, but I don't use one often (read once since I bought it back in 6th edition) so I wouldn't know how well it stands up to that.

That's actually valid. It won't necessarily get into melee every round, even if it is the melee variant. Killing 14 models isn't exactly scary.

BossJakadakk wrote:That's actually valid. It won't necessarily get into melee every round, even if it is the melee variant. Killing 14 models isn't exactly scary.

The WK, if not upgraded, is highly effective as an anti-tank model. It's apparently not particularly good vs. MSU spam. It is, however, capable of wiping squads of infantry in close combat, and it can reliably pop open tanks.

When you add scatter lasers, I suspect that it becomes substantially better vs. MSU spam. I'll conduct another test later on today and post the results.

 BossJakadakk wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 BossJakadakk wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
'Real' reason the WK should be cheaper: as we determined in the other thread a (current) equal number of points of Tactical Marines and Rhinos beat a WK 8 on 1 in an objectives match.

So 4 units of Tac Marines with their free rhinos is 280 points. IIRC, the WK kills 6 units before it dies. I propose dropping the WK to an equivalent point value of 210, 3/4 of the cost of those SM units. Maybe add 5 points because it kills 210 points in the given scenario.

How are you getting 6 units? It's killing at most 14 models (with no upgrades). And that is over the course of 7 turns. Unless it gets into melee, but I don't use one often (read once since I bought it back in 6th edition) so I wouldn't know how well it stands up to that.

That's actually valid. It won't necessarily get into melee every round, even if it is the melee variant. Killing 14 models isn't exactly scary.

Then again, you are right. It could (theoretically) kill 4 rhinos, plus two 5 man tac squads. Assuming every shot hits and wounds, and the models fail their cover save.
So let's see...Over the course of 7 turns, 14 shots at BS 4 means on average you will get 10 hits (actually 9.333...). Of those, 1 in 6 will roll a 1. 1 in 6 will roll a 6. So about 8 (7.778) will be successful, and of those about 2 will allow no saves. Of the remaining 6, if the model has cover, (assuming 5+ standard), 2 will be saved. Meaning, you are most likely to get 6 (5.704) dead models. In other words, you take out the tanks and that is it.

Actually it was over 6 turns, not 5, since that's the metric yu used.

More than 6 D hits are required to kill the Rhions if they are using cover/smokelaunchers, and a WK will only hit with 8 of the 12 shots it will fire in 6 turns.

If the Marines aren't riding in their Rhinos you can't charge them after destroying a Rhino, meaning you'll have to shoot them and not a Rhinos to charge them, wasting more shots.

Ez win.

Going on to T7 at worst makes it a tie, so the WK should at most be 280 using your logic.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Actually it was over 6 turns, not 5, since that's the metric yu used.

In the test I conducted, the game ended on turn 5.

More than 6 D hits are required to kill the Rhions if they are using cover/smokelaunchers, and a WK will only hit with 8 of the 12 shots it will fire in 6 turns.

Rhinos can only pop smoke once per game, and in lieu of a flat out movement or shooting.

quote]Going on to T7 at worst makes it a tie, so the WK should at most be 280 using your logic.

Traditio wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:That's actually valid. It won't necessarily get into melee every round, even if it is the melee variant. Killing 14 models isn't exactly scary.

The WK, if not upgraded, is highly effective as an anti-tank model. It's apparently not particularly good vs. MSU spam. It is, however, capable of wiping squads of infantry in close combat, and it can reliably pop open tanks.

When you add scatter lasers, I suspect that it becomes substantially better vs. MSU spam. I'll conduct another test later on today and post the results.

When you add scatter lasers, you're giving it upgrades. We're discussing base model and points.

Not to mention that fact that a D-shot that hits, gets through the cover save, and doesn't roll a 1 or 6, isn't even guaranteed to kill a 35pt...I mean FREE rhino. D3 only averages 2 HPs.
So out of those 6 turns it's only likely to kill 3 rhinos and maybe 1 Tac unit it charges. The shoulder guns are need for MSU, but we are considering them at this time.

 Galef wrote:
Not to mention that fact that a D-shot that hits, gets throught the cover save, and doesn't roll a 1 or 6, isn't even garunteed to kill a 35pt...I mean FREE rhino. D3 only averages 2 HPs.
So out of those 6 tunrs it's only likely to kill 3 rhinos and maybe 1 Tac unit it charges. The shoulder guns definitely help though

You're not taking into account the fact that it can charge. Charging a rhino essentially gaurantees that you'll kill the rhino in the assault phase.

Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Not to mention that fact that a D-shot that hits, gets throught the cover save, and doesn't roll a 1 or 6, isn't even garunteed to kill a 35pt...I mean FREE rhino. D3 only averages 2 HPs.
So out of those 6 tunrs it's only likely to kill 3 rhinos and maybe 1 Tac unit it charges. The shoulder guns definitely help though

You're not taking into account the fact that it can charge. Charging a rhino essentially gaurantees that you'll kill the rhino in the assault phase.

Actually, I did take charging into account. That was how it killed the 1 Tac unit.

Regardless, it's pointless to compare units in isolation like this. Of course a group of Tac units in Rhinos would be better than a WK at an objective mission, But add Scatter bikes into the mix and you have a different story. The fact is that the WK plugs any whole in an already full tool kit that Eldar have. I like that it does this, but would like to continue bringing my WK without getting the stink-eye

Galef wrote:Actually, I did take charging into account. That was how it killed the 1 Tac unit.

Regardless, it's pointless to compare units in isolation like this. Of course a group of Tac units in Rhinos would be better than a WK at an objective mission, But add Scatter bikes into the mix and you have a different story. The fact is that the WK plugs any whole in an already full tool kit that Eldar have. I like that it does this, but would like to continue bringing my WK without getting the stink-eye

I wrote a turn-by-turn "battle report" in the "is your army cheesetastic" thread. Would you care to look at it and comment on whether or not the results are basically typical?

you know what. I think I am starting to understand the users of dakka dakka. It is very evident that there be many many trolls on here with the leading vote to make the wraith mnight cost less than 295pts. You trolls must think your are so funny.

Grief wrote:
you know what. I think I am starting to understand the users of dakka dakka. It is very evident that there be many many trolls on here with the leading vote to make the wraith mnight cost less than 295pts. You trolls must think your are so funny.

This is why I like polls.

Most people on dakka, I am willing to bet, don't post on a regular basis.

A vocal minority do, and of that vocal minority that do, at least some of them, I am willing to bet, are trolls.

But trolls are in the minority, whether vocal or otherwise, and trolls can't win in a poll.

Case in point: The trolls, try as they might, aren't winning on the poll. Over 60% of dakka poll respondents, so far, agree that the wraithknight should cost at least 350 points.

Traditio wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A wraithknight should be about 100 points more expensive. I argued against that for over a month, then did the math. T8 3+ actually equal to av13/13/12

Except, the wraithknight isn't T8 3+. It's T8, 3+ and 5+ FNP.

And I don't think that you're factoring in the possibility of dealing multiple hullpoints to AV with vehicle damage table results.

The 5+ fnp is supposed to be equal to the lack of damage table for the superheavy walkers. Unless you explode them (or instant death the monster) there is no penalty for them being hit by stronger weapons.

As a standard it appears that both superheavy walkers and gargantuan creatures pay 100 points for their first 6 wounds/hullpoints and pay different amounts from there on (with hullpoints being the cheaper of the two) my guess is because feel no pain is always taken into account whereas hullpoints slowly lose importance on singular units.

Grief wrote:
you know what. I think I am starting to understand the users of dakka dakka. It is very evident that there be many many trolls on here with the leading vote to make the wraith mnight cost less than 295pts. You trolls must think your are so funny.

The vast majority, if not all, of the posters who picked the 'less than 295pts' option came from the thread that started this topic in the first place.

A thread that like many of Traditio's others quickly descends into madness because he's either a troll or just overly stubborn and is 'never wrong'.
In that thread Traditio went on about Free Rhinos from the gladius not being cheese while the WK is, even though one gives you 250-350 free points of models and the other is considered to be 100 points too cheap.
Many posters then showed him that no, free Rhinos are just as erroneous and cheesy and a 'free 100pt' WK and then did the math to show him that in 11/12 BRB missions the WK will lose to equal points of Marines in Rhinos, as it couldn't even kill the full 280 points of models.
Come this thread which is so obviously made for Traditio to come back and go 'nah ah x% of people think the WK is too cheap and therefor cheese' because he dug himself into a hole and wouldn't back down. People that disagreed with him in the other thread and proved him wrong then came here in response and voted the poll option that by Traditio's normal logic should be the preffered one, it should be cheaper as it couldn't kill 280 points of marines. Marines are the standard therefore the WK needs to be reduced to at most 280pts, preferably 250.

Do I truly believe it? No, however the rabbit hole that is Traditio's many threads indicates that it should be the case.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Grief wrote:
you know what. I think I am starting to understand the users of dakka dakka. It is very evident that there be many many trolls on here with the leading vote to make the wraith mnight cost less than 295pts. You trolls must think your are so funny.

The vast majority, if not all, of the posters who picked the 'less than 295pts' option came from the thread that started this topic in the first place.

A thread that like many of Traditio's others quickly descends into madness because he's either a troll or just overly stubborn and is 'never wrong'.
In that thread Traditio went on about Free Rhinos from the gladius not being cheese while the WK is, even though one gives you 250-350 free points of models and the other is considered to be 100 points too cheap.
Many posters then showed him that no, free Rhinos are just as erroneous and cheesy and a 'free 100pt' WK and then did the math to show him that in 11/12 BRB missions the WK will lose to equal points of Marines in Rhinos, as it couldn't even kill the full 280 points of models.
Come this thread which is so obviously made for Traditio to come back and go 'nah ah x% of people think the WK is too cheap and therefor cheese' because he dug himself into a hole and wouldn't back down. People that disagreed with him in the other thread and proved him wrong then came here in response and voted the poll option that by Traditio's normal logic should be the preffered one, it should be cheaper as it couldn't kill 280 points of marines. Marines are the standard therefore the WK needs to be reduced to at most 280pts, preferably 250.

Do I truly believe it? No, however the rabbit hole that is Traditio's many threads indicates that it should be the case.

You voted for the less than current option?

What is your actual opinion, independent of my rhetoric?

Traditio wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Probably because you're asking people to pay a ludicrious 400+ pts for a Wraithknight.

Thus the reason for the poll. I am asking for general public opinion. What is your actual opinion on the matter?

My actual opinion is that you get beat by Eldar because you are a weak player, and you want the stuff that beats you to be nerfed down to your lack of playing ability. That is my opinion.

I'm sorry that there's no nicer way of putting that.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Probably because you're asking people to pay a ludicrious 400+ pts for a Wraithknight.

Thus the reason for the poll. I am asking for general public opinion. What is your actual opinion on the matter?

My actual opinion is that you get beat by Eldar because you are a weak player, and you want the stuff that beats you to be nerfed down to your lack of playing ability. That is my opinion.

I'm sorry that there's no nicer way of putting that.

May I recommend orks for your next army?

I already have Chaos Marines. And Imperial Guard. I think that gives me ample tools to play down to whatever level my opponent might bring.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Probably because you're asking people to pay a ludicrious 400+ pts for a Wraithknight.

Thus the reason for the poll. I am asking for general public opinion. What is your actual opinion on the matter?

My actual opinion is that you get beat by Eldar because you are a weak player, and you want the stuff that beats you to be nerfed down to your lack of playing ability. That is my opinion.

I'm sorry that there's no nicer way of putting that.

This x 10

kambien wrote:This x 10

Update. My opinion has over 60 percent of the vote thus far, even including the trolls.

In fact, even taken individually, my opinion has the largest share of the votes.

When can I start claiming the support of public opinion?

Traditio wrote:
Update. My opinion has over 60 percent of the vote thus far, even including the trolls.

Well yes, of course "including the trolls". 55% of the vote thus far is trolls voting in support of your opinion because they want to ruin the poll and laugh at the idea of 400 point Wraithknights. So if you only consider the honest votes it's ~5% for your side and ~35% for cheaper Wraithknights.

Using Traditios own methodology for working out points costs I voted less than 295.

Though there was no option on the poll for 40k needs to be burnt down and remade from the foundations up. Something which would get rid of the majority of the silliness we have now.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Using Traditios own methodology for working out points costs I voted less than 295.

Though there was no option on the poll for 40k needs to be burnt down and remade from the foundations up. Something which would get rid of the majority of the silliness we have now.

Agreed. If we use his philosophy (which he uses when appropriate), then the Wraithknight cannot be 295+.

More consistent balancing across all factions is needed.

Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:This x 10

Update. My opinion has over 60 percent of the vote thus far, even including the trolls.

In fact, even taken individually, my opinion has the largest share of the votes.

When can I start claiming the support of public opinion?

On this topic: Never.

You've admitted in an earlier post that, to some extent or another, that trolls have more than likely been involved with the poll in this thread. This means that any results that your poll yields are meaningless unless you can identity all the trolls that voted in the poll and which option they voted for, then remove their votes and tally the remaining results. This is practically impossible and therefore by both the likely scenario of people trolling the poll as well as by your own admission that trolls likely voted in the poll, you cannot draw any conclusions from the poll, which most definitely means you cannot start claiming the support of public opinion.

You are riding the general consensus that Wraithknights more than likely need a change, and are trying to use the results of a poll that has been invalidated by the presence of disingenuous answers being submitted to justify an argument that, as far as I can tell, is being disagree with by a significant number (if not a majority) of people.

Speaking honestly, I see no issues with the wraith knight as it is.

I think it's more about the fact there is rarely ever one in its own.
Alot of the time people will run 2-3 of them, so naturally they will dominate a game with ease.

But the damage output for one on its own is hardly something to scream about.

If it's a choice between facing a wraith knight or the same points in scatterbikes/spiders, I'd face the knight.



Look at tournament results as of recent, the armies running a single knight didn't place that high as countering a single knight and managing its damage isn't that bad.

It's only when people begin to run 2-3 there is a real issue with them.



So points wise, I think they are fine as is.
It's more the way you rarely face one at a time.


And before anyone screams troll or Eldar player, I have no interest in them what so ever.
I happily run nids and daemons and occasionally my 30k mechanicum.

It is very evident that there are many trolls here, with leading votes saying people believe the WK should cost more. You must think you're very funny, trolls.

We've established reasons the WK would be justified costing less using the OP's own system.