Muhammad Ali: Greatest boxer of all time?

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**jreilly89**

I've seen a lot of people claim this and it got me wondering what you guys think. I think Ali is probably number 1, but that's a close toss up between him, Joe Frasier, George Foreman, and Mike Tyson.

I think Joe Frasier and George Foreman were just all around great boxers, but Mike Tyson appeals to me because he just had the raw power of a truck at Age 19.

So while Ali holds #1, it is by no means a clear winner for me.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Joe Louis is probably ahead of Ali in the list of greatest ever. Of course, Sugar Ray Robison should be in the conversation as well, he's pretty much considered the best pound for pound boxer of all time.

To me, it's a toss up between those three boxers.

**Frazzled**

Other than the weight issue (heavyweights have gotten heavier over time), its hard to find consider any of the ones mentioned beating him in his prime, and I am a personal fan of Smoking Joe myself. He was just that good.

There is a clip going around (black and white before the ban) where he is on the ropes and dodges something like 40 shots in 16 seconds, at the end of which he starts taunting his opponent (and then it goes badly for the other guy).

**gorgon**

Yeah, the big issue with Ali is that he lost his prime years. So people's evaluation of his career can vary depending on how much they weight things like longevity, volume of fights, etc.

Personally, I think he's the greatest, and that the film of him before the ban bears that out. He was at another level. Now, the heavyweight division was well-stocked during the '70s (night-and-day compared to the utterly shameful display we have now) and other great fighters like Frazier, Foreman, etc. emerged...but again, the Ali of that era was past his prime. And he still whupped them all at one point or another, including the Foreman fight, which remains utterly incredible to this day.

**jreilly89**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Joe Louis is probably ahead of Ali in the list of greatest ever. Of course, Sugar Ray Robison should be in the conversation as well, he's pretty much considered the best pound for pound boxer of all time.

To me, it's a toss up between though three boxers.

Ofcourse, how could I forget

what makes you think those two top Ali? Movement? style?

**Frazzled**

Robinson is a compelling counterpoint. No one has done what he did.

**filbert**

No way Tyson. He had a glass jaw.

**jreilly89**

filbert wrote:
No way Tyson. He had a glass jaw.

So? His current record is:

Total fights 58
Wins 50
Wins by KO 44
Losses 6
No contests 2

Glass jaw doesn't mean anything when you can hit first and hit hard. Sure, he has a glass jaw, but he connected his punches and knocked out a lot of people. I think the big thing between him and most guys is can they dodge his punches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Tyson

**Kilkrazy**

Are we going by wins or by style and artistry of wins?

It's very hard to evaluate a fighter from one era against another. You can only be measured by the quality of your opponents.

**gorgon**

Tyson knocked over a lot of tin cans though, if you go back and look. I think he still deserves to be mentioned as a top heavyweight, but he never reached his potential after Cus D'Amato died, IMO. Tyson was still trending upward up to that point, but without D'Amato to protect and guide him, it seemed like his life went haywire, too many bad apples moved in (Don King, etc.), and his skills plateaued or even eroded. His life was a mess at the time of his famous loss to Douglas. Although the thing about Douglas was that he always had talent and tools...he was just a lazy dude and only ever put it all together once in his career for that one magical night.

After the prison term Tyson was a shell of himself, and it's no wonder that he got his tail handed to him twice when he faced the best heavyweight he'd ever fight (Holyfield) at that late stage of his career.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

jreilly89 wrote:
Of course, how could I forget what makes you think those two top Ali? Movement? style?

Joe Louis is probably number one for a couple of reasons. First, he was a black national hero when there was no such thing. His second fight against Max Schmeling is one of the greatest moments in American sports history because of the racial and political aspects of it. The other reason is his 25 title defenses, second only to Julio César Chávez (another one of the greatest boxers of all time), and he was heavyweight champion for 140 consecutive months.

Sugar Ray Robinson was just an all-around amazing boxer. He was so versatile and best of all, he could punch with equal speed and power with either hand.

gorgon wrote:
I think he still deserves to be mentioned as a top heavyweight, but he never reached his potential after Cus D'Amato died, IMO.

Indeed, he was never the same after that.

Tyson still deserves mention though because of his sheer power and viciousness; his left hook was a thing of beauty.

**Chute82**

Lennox Lewis not getting any love? Might be the best heavy weight champion I have ever seen fight in my 41 years of life

**Jehan-reznor**

Cassius Clay was an all-rounder, but where he won out on the others was his presence, other boxers maybe have been better fighters, but he new how to play the media.

**Ensis Ferrae**

No one has mentioned Rocky Marciano yet?? The shame...

49-0 record, 43 by KO.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2012/nov/13/forgotten-story-rocky-marciano-muhammad-ali

I will say that Ali definitely ranks up there in the ring because of the presence, the eloquence in his trash talk (and the ability to back it up). Ali is also aided over the likes of Marciano and Louis, and the other "old time greats" like Baer, Braddock (though really, he's mostly famous for being the Cinderella Man, not actually as a great fighter), etc. because Ali fought in what has been dubbed the Golden Age of boxing.

Also among my favorite boxers..

Marvelous Marvin Hagler, for one simple fact: Due to media not referring to him by his fighting name, he legally changed his name to Marvelous

This is of course, not even mentioning his fights, as well as his long time as undisputed middleweight champ (even though the weight class did not have the same sort of prestige that the heavyweight class did)
Roy Jones Jr.... Sure, he came out during what I personally considered a dull period in boxing, his time as a middleweight, IMO really breathed some life into the weight class. While he had some extremely unorthodox methods of fighting, I cannot consider him the GOAT, because he lost to some chumps, as well as his time spent in higher weight classes really derailed his career (IMO).

**welshhoppo**

Are we talking heavyweight or all rounder?

As Ferrae said, They did run a programme back in the sixties, I believe it was during Ali's ban from boxing because he needed money. Who would win between Marciano and Ali? Marciano was the one who won it, and they even did some sparring. I remember reading that Ali knocked off Marciano's toupee, so Marciano decked him. If they two of them had fought in their prime, God knows. I don't think Ali could have knocked Marciano out however.

As for the Tyson having a glass jaw. Everyone has a glass jaw when you're being hit in the face by a 250 pound man.

**Xenomancers**

Mayweather is the greatest boxer ever (Don't even like the guys style but I can still give him credit) Hes Undefeated. Next I'd have to go with Tyson simply because I don't think theres a man alive he couldn't knock out with a single punch.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Mayweather is one of the best boxers of his generation and probably the greatest welterweight of all time. But the all around greatest of all time? Nope.

Being undefeated is great and all, but that doesn't make someone the greatest. If that were the case, the '72 Dolphins would be the greatest NFL team of all time and they aren't even in the top five.

**Prestor Jon**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Mayweather is one of the best boxers of his generation and probably the greatest welterweight of all time. But the all around greatest of all time? Nope.

Being undefeated is great and all, but that doesn't make someone the greatest. If that were the case, the '72 Dolphins would be the greatest NFL team of all time and they aren't even in the top five.

Agreed. Mayweather is great but nowhere near the greatest. His undefeated career is a great accomplishment but he's fought a lot of mediocre fighters or good fighters that were past their prime. It's no accident that he dragged out negotiations with Pacquiao for years before finally fighting him. Mayweather is very skilled but it's hard to find great fights or great opponents in their prime when you look over his record.

Ali was the best heavyweight at a time when the division was seriously stacked with talent. Norton, Foreman, Frasier, etc. were serious contenders.

**Ouze**

Surprised Tyson came up.

I like Mike Tyson. I think he's a dude who was ill-used by a lot of people. However, he really doesn't have a place in a discussion of greatest boxers. His technical skills were terrible, he simply had a cannon of a left hand and that in and of itself can be enough when you're not fighting spectacular fighters. Definitely not among the greats, but probably would lead a list of hardest hitters.

**Prestor Jon**

Ouze wrote:
Surprised Tyson came up.

I like Mike Tyson. I think he's a dude who was ill-used by a lot of people. However, he really doesn't have a place in a discussion of greatest boxers. His technical skills were terrible, he simply had a cannon of a left hand and that in and of itself can be enough when you're not fighting spectacular fighters. Definitely not among the greats, but probably would lead a list of hardest hitters.

He probably had the greatest left hook. He wasn't a big heavyweight and his boxing ability really deteriorated after Cus D'Amato died. In his rise to fame he was really dangerous in the ring but in the later stages of his career you could tell he was just trying to land his left and struggled to get through a decent defense.

**jasper76**

Chute82 wrote:
Lennox Lewis not getting any love? Might be the best heavy weight champion I have ever seen fight in my 41 years of life

Lennox Lewis was the best heavyweight o the post-Tyson era. It was a weak era. He was boring as hell to watch. Definitely a hall of famer, nowhere near the best ever.

Tyson had a meteoric rise, but his riddle was completely solved by Buster Douglas.

If you ask me, the boxing world is still waiting for its next Muhammad Ali.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Mayweather is the greatest boxer ever (Don't even like the guys style but I can still give him credit) Hes Undefeated. Next I'd have to go with Tyson simply because I don't think theres a man alive he couldn't knock out with a single punch.

Joe Calzaghe was also undefeated. So he must also be the greatest ever.

Tyson couldn't knock out Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Danny Williams, or Kevin McBride. It's easy to get the young, prime Tyson confused with the post-Buster Douglas Tyson.

**feeder**

Also to consider is many men of a certain age had Tyson's mystique increased due to their own inability to defeat him in Punch Out.

**Chongara**

feeder wrote:
Also to consider is many men of a certain age had Tyson's mystique increased due to their own inability to defeat him in Punch Out.

If we consider the 1987 release date and assume that a game will remain relevant to audiences and to at least some extent for about 5 years or so we can say that it was men of age to be playing it between the years of 1987 and 1992. We'll also assume that the prime audience of NES games were kids between the ages of 7 and 14. This gives us an upper bound of age 43 (age 14 in 1987) and a lower bound of 31 (7 in 1992). Not counting however many kids in the current generation have managed to get into hobby of retrogaming.

**jasper76**

ESPN ranks Sugar Ray Robsinon ahead of Muhammad Ali in their 'who's the greatest list': Below are their top 5:

http://espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110

5. Willie Pep

Featherweight
Ring career: 1940-66 Record: 230-11-1 (65 KOs)
Career notes: Two-time world featherweight champion renowned for legendary defensive skills. … Achieved tremendous success despite suffering near-fatal injuries in a plane crash in 1947. … Legend that says he once won a round without throwing a punch (he almost certainly did not) is testament to defensive wizardry of "Will o' the Wisp." … Won first 63 bouts before losing to Sammy Angott, and then went 72-0-1 before losing again, to Sandy Saddler. … Only Saddler was ever truly able to figure him out, winning three of four times in bouts that were frequently brutal and foul-filled.

4. Joe Louis

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1934-51 Record: 68-3 (54 KOs)
Career notes: Won world heavyweight championship in 1937, and retired as champion in 1949. … Held heavyweight title for longer (11 years, 8 months, 7 days) and made more successful defenses (25) than anyone. … Defined by two fights against Max Schmeling of Germany. In first encounter, was unbeaten and knocked out in the 12th round, in June 1936. In rematch, almost exactly two years later, as world champion knocked out challenger in the first round, becoming hero to black and white Americans alike, and cemented his place as one of the most popular champions of all time.

3. Henry Armstrong

Featherweight, lightweight, welterweight
Ring career: 1932-45 Record: 151-21-9 (101 KOs)
Career notes: Only boxer to hold world titles at three different weights simultaneously. … Won featherweight crown in October 1937. … Added welterweight title in May 1938 and became lightweight champion three months later. … Challenged for middleweight crown in 1940, and held champion Ceferino Garcia to a draw. … Known variously as "Hammerin' Hank" and "Homicide Hank." Third nickname, "Hurricane Hank," was perhaps the most appropriate. … Was a whirlwind of a fighter, a perpetual-motion machine who overwhelmed opponents with a nonstop, suffocating fusillade of punches. … Faced 17 world champions in career and defeated 15 of them.

2. Muhammad Ali

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1960-81 Record: 56-5 (37 KOs)
Career notes: First to win heavyweight championship of the world three times. … Was banned from the ring for three years for refusing induction into the armed forces during the Vietnam War. … After ban was lifted, lost to Joe Frazier in "Fight of the Century" in 1971, but stunned George Foreman to regain belt in 1974. … Lost title to, and regained it from, Leon Spinks in 1978. … Three of defeats came in last four bouts, including two in an ill-advised emergence from retirement, against Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick, at 38. … Transcended the sport unlike any other boxer. … Reinvented the way heavyweights were supposed to fight, deploying a speed and athleticism that was previously unheard of; also alternately bedazzled and appalled America and the world with charisma, showmanship and braggadocio. … Viewed progressively over the years as loudmouth, villain, hero and finally a figure of pathos. … Remains for many the definition of a champion.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson

Welterweight, middleweight
Ring career: 1940-65 Record: 175-19-6-2 (109 KOs)
Career notes: Won world welterweight title in December 1946, and defended it four times before stepping up in weight and winning, in 1951, first of five stints as middleweight champ. … Attempted to win light heavyweight title from Joey Maxim in 1952, but was stopped in the 14th round. … Born Walker Smith in Ailey, Ga. … Was the most complete boxer yet to grace the squared circle. … Lost just one of first 123 fights, to Jake LaMotta, a defeat avenged five times in a classic ring rivalry. … A near-perfect pugilist at welterweight, was less dominant at middleweight, but was still able to win the title five times, including three times after he had retired for two and a half years. … Only stoppage defeat was when challenging Maxim for light heavyweight crown, and then was leading on points until overcome by heat so extreme that it had forced the replacement of the referee in the 10th.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

jasper76 wrote:
ESPN ranks Sugar Ray Robsinon ahead of Muhammad Ali in their 'who's the greatest list': Below are their top 5:

http://espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110

More or less how I see it, though I'd put Joe Louis before Henry Armstrong. I mean, Ali did refer to Robison as "the king, the master, my idol."

**Chute82**

Julio Cesar Chavez was also a beast. Went 13 years before losing a fight, 27 title defenses, champion in 3 different weights.

On the ESPN greatest boxers Iron Mike is #50
Mayweather #48

http://espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest4150

**ProwlerPC**

Rocky Marciano, the one who retired undefeated. Why care about winning the title 3 times when you don't lose it the first time?

**jhe90**

Ali was more than just a champion boxer though. He had a something about him that made him far more than many others before or after.

**Ensis Ferrae**

jasper76 wrote:

If you ask me, the boxing world is still waiting for its next Muhammad Ali.

Agreed.... And, IMHO, the "next Ali" absolutely MUST be a light-heavy, or heavyweight. The little guys can fight for sure, but I still think people go to see a fight, and a fething knockout. I think that there is just something about the middleweights and higher that sort of, I dunno, inspire awe in people, when done right.

I remember reading articles that wondered if the Klitschko brothers were that "savior" of the heavyweight division (spoiler: they weren't), but I think that currently, people are too enamored with the "let's all fight literally the same way" UFC and MMA bullgak (sorry if you like that sort of thing... I find it utterly boring and extremely repetitive), and currently, the heavyweight division is simply viewed as being too big, too slow and too unathletic to really draw in the crowds that middleweights and lower can draw (even if they don't get nearly the same number of KOs in a fight)

**stanman**

Foreman because without his grill my burgers would be swimming in fat. 2nd pick is Little Mac cause he could beat Tyson at his prime, in his own game.